Author Topic: Jack's coat (Read 85582 times)

BBBOY · « **Reply #30 on:** Mar 18, 2006, 07:41 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 16, 2006, 10:33 PM

Here is the answer.

Now come on! Where did you get that picture. It is exactly as I saw it in my head when I made the above post. I'm not sure you are a genius but I know you are something.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #31 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 12:31 AM »

Quote from: sam on Mar 18, 2006, 07:22 PM

Quote from: aimi15 on Mar 15, 2006, 05:53 PM

Always struck me in that scene the diffferences between them - Jack looking very well turned out with his neatly combed hair and his smart clothes - looking very well-to-do, and Ennis looking like no time has passed - he's still that poor boy with the worn out clothes that we saw on the mountain 4 years previous.
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Yes, I noticed that too. Sometimes too small. Sleeves too short. Threadbare and worn in places... It occured to me too: Gosh, Ennis has not made any progress forward...he's still at that same place he was at way back on Brokeback Mountain that first summer with Jack... Still just chasing after "seasonal" work... Still probably just owning 2 shirts...

Poor, poor, Ennis. My heart breaks and I start crying whenever I think of him.

Besides that one line in the fight scene with Jack ("You forget what it's like being broke all the time."), we never really get to see how Ennis, (or Jack for that matter!), feel about this...

Has anyone else thought about this aspect?

sam

I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.

BBBOY · « **Reply #32 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 01:28 AM »

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I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.

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Never a viable option I think. These 2 tragic men never got to that point.

sam · « **Reply #33 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 08:09 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 19, 2006, 12:31 AM

I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.

YES! Same here! I wondered about that TOO! I wonder why he never did that? Could it be that he didn't want Ennis to feel bad about being "poor"? (I mean: like...not wanting to rub his face in the fact? Did Jack feel 'guilty' for being well off?) I wonder...

Or was it more of a 'gay/not gay' thingy? (Men don't buy each other presents?) Hmmmm, I wonder...

What do you all think? I am curious to hear other opinions...

sam

tpe · « **Reply #34 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 10:47 AM »

Quote from: sam on Mar 19, 2006, 08:09 AM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 19, 2006, 12:31 AM

I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.

YES! Same here! I wondered about that TOO! I wonder why he never did that? Could it be that he didn't want Ennis to feel bad about being "poor"? (I mean: like...not wanting to rub his face in the fact? Did Jack feel 'guilty' for being well off?) I wonder...

Or was it more of a 'gay/not gay' thingy? (Men don't buy each other presents?) Hmmmm, I wonder...

What do you all think? I am curious to hear other opinions...

sam

I think the answer to this is given by Ennis himself :

Ennis (to Jack): 'I don't need your money...I'm not in the poorhouse... SH*T!'

Ennis would never have accepted gifts of clothing or money from Jack. That wouldn't be Ennis....

sam · « **Reply #35 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 11:52 AM »

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I think the answer to this is given by Ennis himself :

Ennis (to Jack): 'I don't need your money...I'm not in the poorhouse... SH*T!'

Ennis would never have accepted gifts of clothing or money from Jack. That wouldn't be Ennis....

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, wow! You are so right, tpe! Absolutely! I completely forgot that Ennis said that to Jack!

It all makes sense now...

Thanks!

sam

Stephen · « **Reply #36 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 12:38 PM »

Good point,tpe; just another reminder that every detail in the film can ultimately lead to another and eventually to supporting a particular notion....I recall well that line but only after you typed it out! Thank you.

aimi15 · « **Reply #37 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 12:45 PM »

Thank you tpe. I think Ennis felt he had too much pride and integrity to accept anything from Jack - he would be a 'kept man'. We never saw Jack offer him anything again - he knew where the line was that couldn't be crossed. The sadness for me is Jack would have given everything up for Ennis - the money, the fine clothes - but i don't think Ennis would have ever let him make such a sacrifice.

What a film - every time you take away another layer it becomes more profound...and more heartwrenching :'( :'(

Stephen · « **Reply #38 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 12:51 PM »

Nicely said Aimi; every stone unturned in the film hides another insight ready to be discovered, and then just when you think there's nothing left to feel, the story becomes heart breaking once again.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #39 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 12:59 PM »

Quote from: sam on Mar 19, 2006, 08:09 AM

Or was it more of a 'gay/not gay' thingy? (Men don't buy each other presents?) Hmmmm, I wonder...

Sure men buy each other presents. Have you never worked in a place where you draw names from a "hat" at Christmas time and that is the person you buy a gift for? You could draw a male name then. In fact, I worked one place where they were all men. Didn't have a choice.

Here I am changing the movie again. :D

Astroboy108 · « **Reply #40 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 02:30 PM »

Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....

tpe · « **Reply #41 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 02:37 PM »

Quote from: Astroboy108 on Mar 19, 2006, 02:30 PM

Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....

Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.

christie wood · « **Reply #42 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 04:44 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 19, 2006, 02:37 PM

Quote from: Astroboy108 on Mar 19, 2006, 02:30 PM
Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....

Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.

Yeah I read that too, it was an actual quote from Diana Ossana when asked about that scene, if she'd been the one to change the shirts around and she said no, it was Heath's idea. That's how deep Heath was in to this film and this character - that kind of seemingly little thing just bowls me over.

tpe · « **Reply #43 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 04:55 PM »

Quote from: christie wood on Mar 19, 2006, 04:44 PM

Quote from: tpe on Mar 19, 2006, 02:37 PM
Quote from: Astroboy108 on Mar 19, 2006, 02:30 PM
Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....

Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.

Yeah I read that too, it was an actual quote from Diana Ossana when asked about that scene, if she'd been the one to change the shirts around and she said no, it was Heath's idea. That's how deep Heath was in to this film and this character - that kind of seemingly little thing just bowls me over.

A bit OOT, but I also remember that in the last scene Ledger shot (the one where he go beaten up on Thanksgiving Night), he actually requested that it be done as a REAL fight. He wanted to feel the pain...and frustration. I believe he was truly moved on that last night before he was to depart the set forever...

christie wood · « **Reply #44 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 05:08 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 19, 2006, 04:55 PM

Quote from: christie wood on Mar 19, 2006, 04:44 PM
Quote from: tpe on Mar 19, 2006, 02:37 PM
Quote from: Astroboy108 on Mar 19, 2006, 02:30 PM
Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....

Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.

Yeah I read that too, it was an actual quote from Diana Ossana when asked about that scene, if she'd been the one to change the shirts around and she said no, it was Heath's idea. That's how deep Heath was in to this film and this character - that kind of seemingly little thing just bowls me over.

A bit OOT, but I also remember that in the last scene Ledger shot (the one where he go beaten up on Thanksgiving Night), he actually requested that it be done as a REAL fight. He wanted to feel the pain...and frustration. I believe he was truly moved on that last night before he was to depart the set forever...

I hadn't realised this was the last scene he shot. This scene always upsets me, because Ennis reacts to the beating like he deserves it, like it's his punishment for feeling the way he does about Jack....so he just gives in, and allows himself to be beaten to a pulp. :'(

tpe · « **Reply #45 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 06:02 PM »

Quote from: christie wood on Mar 19, 2006, 05:08 PM

I hadn't realised this was the last scene he shot. This scene always upsets me, because Ennis reacts to the beating like he deserves it, like it's his punishment for feeling the way he does about Jack....so he just gives in, and allows himself to be beaten to a pulp. :'(

Yes, this was why he picked up a quarrel with a bigger guy. He felt he needed to be beaten at that moment.

The context is heartbreaking.

christie wood · « **Reply #46 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 06:19 PM »

god tpe dont get me started! it upsets me SO much to see Ennis on the ground and defenceless but that is how he feels he has to be because this is what he deserves

** sob **

sam · « **Reply #47 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 10:10 PM »

BBM is (among many other things!) a cautionary tale about what happens when love is hidden or denied. It tells the story of the unresolved love between Ennis and Jack, their struggles and regrets with the road not taken, and about the pain they cause for themselves and others in denying who they are. It's about the choices they have made that maybe say "yes" to one person, while at the same time, saying "no" to another...

After that awful scene with Alma in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner at her (new) place, I think that it was only then, that Ennis finally discovers the true extent of the damage and pain his long and secret relationship with Jack had actually caused Alma. Alma had been silent all those years about her feelings. Apparently, she had never mentioned any of this to him before...not even during their divorce...!) She had never ever even told him that little story about her note on his fishing line until that night...

I think that Ennis must have been sooooo in complete and utter shock after hearing all that she had had to say in that dramatic outpour of hers. I truly think that he didn't even have the slightest inkling that Alma "knew/or even suspected" anything of what he had with Jack. (Just in that particular way, I think that Ennis had always been pitifully "innocent".) Right up until that unexpected confrontation in front of the sink, where Alma suddenly releases all her pent up bitterness towards him, it had remained unbeknownst territory to him. It all seemed to fall on his shoulders that night simply "out-of-the-blue", and it surely caught him off his guard. It must have also been absolutely DEVASTATING for him to hear her call his lover: "Jack NASTY!".

I don't think that it was ever his intention to (purposely) hurt Alma. I think that he truly always meant to build a real and solid life with her. Life just dealt him out a bad hand of cards, and so it just didn't work out for him with Alma...

To have heard all she had to say that night must have immediately caused him so much pain and sorrow. He must have felt sooooooooo guilty for having caused her so much suffering, that he instantly leaves and actually WANTS someone to beat him up and cause HIM some pain in return for his past deeds against Alma. I know that this sounds twisted...but a man in pain...with a heart full of hurt and regret, often goes out and does strange things... And, if you ask me, I think he left the house that night, after the fight, in violent emotional turmoil, filled to the brim with anger, rage, disgust, (at himself?) and sorrow (for Alma?). Clearly intending to get either (wildly drunk) OR to get involved in a fight...ANY fight! Just to let out all his pent up emotions from that disastrous end of the evening...! (Alma: "Get out! Get out! You hear me, Ennis Del Mar? GET OUT!")

It was an unavoidable "explosion"....

sam

jerasjr · « **Reply #48 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 10:16 PM »

Again, Sam, a beautiful and cogent insight.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #49 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 11:50 PM »

Actually, Ennis was his own worst enemy. His constant paranoia and homophobia kept him in constant conflict and pain.

sam · « **Reply #50 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 03:36 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 19, 2006, 11:50 PM

Actually, Ennis was his own worst enemy. His constant paranoia and homophobia kept him in constant conflict and pain.

I most certainly agree with THAT! Poor, poor, poor little Ennis Del Mar! (Sam's heart breaks...)

sam

christie wood · « **Reply #51 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 04:43 AM »

Quote from: sam on Mar 19, 2006, 10:10 PM

BBM is (among many other things!) a cautionary tale about what happens when love is hidden or denied. It tells the story of the unresolved love between Ennis and Jack, their struggles and regrets with the road not taken, and the pain they cause for themselves and others in denying who they are.

After that awful scene with Alma in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner at her (new) place, I think that it was only then, that Ennis finally discovers the true extent of the damage and pain his year long relationship with Jack had actually caused Alma. Alma had been silent all those years about her feelings. Apparently, she had never mentioned any of this to him before...not even during their divorce...!) She had never ever even told him that story about her note on his fishing line until that night...

I think that Ennis must have been sooooo in complete and utter shock after hearing all that she had had to say in that dramatic outpour of hers. It must have also been absolutely DEVASTATING for him to hear her call his lover: "Jack NASTY!".

I don't think that it was ever his intention to hurt Alma.

To have heard all of this must have immediately caused him so much pain and sorrow. He must have felt sooooooooo guilty for having caused her so much suffering, that he instantly leaves and actually WANTS someone to beat him up and cause HIM some pain in return for his past deeds against Alma. I know that this sounds twisted...but a man in pain...with a heart full of regret, often goes out and does strange things... And, if you ask me, I think he left the house after the fight, filled with anger, rage, disgust, (at himself?) and sorrow (for Alma?), clearly intending to get in a fight...ANY fight! Just to let out all his pent up emotions from that disastrous end of the evening...!

It was an unavoidable "explosion"....

sam

Sam, what a fantastic post. I agree with you on all the reasons Ennis felt he deserved to be beaten up, but I also think that it does have a lot to do with his love for Jack, and this being brought out in the open by Alma, because up until then it has been their (Ennis and Jack's) secret. To have Alma confront him with this is just too much for Ennis to bear......poor, sad, heartbroken Ennis. :'(

sam · « **Reply #52 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 05:22 AM »

Quote from: christie wood on Mar 20, 2006, 04:43 AM

Sam, what a fantastic post. I agree with you on all the reasons Ennis felt he deserved to be beaten up, but I also think that it does have a lot to do with his love for Jack, and this being brought out in the open by Alma, because up until then it has been their (Ennis and Jack's) secret. To have Alma confront him with this is just too much for Ennis to bear......poor, sad, heartbroken Ennis. :'(

You are so right christie. So right. (Sam nods his head up and down.) What a GREAT and wonderful movie!!!!!

sam

christie wood · « **Reply #53 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 09:18 AM »

Quote from: sam on Mar 20, 2006, 05:22 AM

Quote from: christie wood on Mar 20, 2006, 04:43 AM

Sam, what a fantastic post. I agree with you on all the reasons Ennis felt he deserved to be beaten up, but I also think that it does have a lot to do with his love for Jack, and this being brought out in the open by Alma, because up until then it has been their (Ennis and Jack's) secret. To have Alma confront him with this is just too much for Ennis to bear......poor, sad, heartbroken Ennis. :'(

You are so right christie. So right. (Sam nods his head up and down.) What a GREAT and wonderful movie!!!!!

sam

Oh yes, a great and wonderful movie indeed - and one that never ceases to amaze me.

Love your avatar btw - good old Jake, looking genuinely surprised to win - and how he deserved that award!

proulxfan · « **Reply #54 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 01:54 PM »

Someone on a previous thread brought up that Ennis was also enraged by Alma referring to Jack as Jack Nasty. Notice that he verbally threatens to beat up Monroe and her, something I doubt he would even think of doing unless extremely upset. I think his faithfulness to Jack supports the idea that he saw their relationship as somehow sacred, while at the same time being so conflicted and guilty about it. And our Ennis has only one outlet available to him when his emotions start piling up on him like that; his fists.
And to bring this back to the topic-ahem-I welled up with tears again today-first time in quite a while now-thinking about how, in the beginning, Jack and Ennis's shared poverty served as a bond between them, and that Jacks relative affluence later was another factor pulling them apart. Think of the resentment Ennis must have been feeling when he said "You're the reason I'm nothing..." He's just told Jack that he quit his several previous jobs just so they could get together, and now is feeling trapped in this one. And Jack stands there in his far more expensive gear and berates him for not being able to vacation in someplace warm. How that must have stung!!!

Stephen · « **Reply #55 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 02:05 PM »

Well, we're certainly off the thread of Jack's coat, but now that you've mentioned it, Proulxfan, I see that sad, inarticulate Ennis Del Mar has to resort to his fist, just as he does with the truck driver who has to brake for Ennis as he goes to the bar.....but I'm also curious about the word Nasty: even after 6 viewings, that word hits me as an unusual choice for Alma to use in the context of her desperate frustration as she releases years of pent up sadness and lies ......Jack Nasty.....what's your take on this word choice?

proulxfan · « **Reply #56 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 02:10 PM »

Well, "doing the nasty" was a common euphemism for having sex. And I think the thought of two guys doing it was probably especially repugnant to her, and of course it's easier to blame it all on Jack...hence Jack Nasty; but you know he loves you, right??

Stephen · « **Reply #57 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 02:17 PM »

Thank you; and this is one of the few moments when someone is with me in "real time" Proulxfan! I didn't know "the nasty" was a euphemism....now it makes sense. Like so much other language that degrades sex, it must have come from our puritanical heritage, still so alive and well!

proulxfan · « **Reply #58 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 02:47 PM »

Stephen,

I wholeheartedly agree, and don't even get me started on that unless you're ready for a 3 hour rant!! And see?? You've gone and lead me off topic again!!

sam · « **Reply #59 on:** Mar 20, 2006, 05:45 PM »

Quote from: proulxfan on Mar 20, 2006, 01:54 PM

Someone on a previous thread brought up that Ennis was also enraged by Alma referring to Jack as Jack Nasty. Notice that he verbally threatens to beat up Monroe and her, something I doubt he would even think of doing unless extremely upset. I think his faithfulness to Jack supports the idea that he saw their relationship as somehow sacred, while at the same time being so conflicted and guilty about it.

Hi proulxfan and Stephen! It's so great to hear your input and thoughts on this movie that we all love and cherish. Did you guys get the feeling that Ennis was mainly reacting to Alma's "Jack Nasty" remark? I'm so curious... I'm sure that it must have stung when she said those two harsh words to him, (that's what she clearly intended them to do!), but my own personal impression was that his immediate respose of threatening to beat her (and Monroe) up was one more of a reaction to her saying: "I'm goin' a yell for Monroe!" rather than to her "Jack Nasty" remark. Of course, I might be waaaaaaaaay wrong, but I attributed his threatening them, more to the fact that he was terrified that his carefully guarded "Jack secret" would be finally broadcasted publicly, by Alma, to the "world" (=Monroe and his 2 girls in the living room). (You see, up until that very moment, Ennis thought that the only two people on earth that knew about his secret relationship with Jack, was only Jack...)

Alma: "JACK NASTY! You didn' go up there to fish!"
Ennis:"Shut up, listen to me, you don' know nothin' about it!"
(Ennis grabs her arm in a tight grip.)
Alma: "I'm goin' a yell for Monroe!"
Ennis: "You do it and I'll make him eat the f***in' floor, and YOU TOO!"

What do y'all think? Am I looking at this wrong?

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in the beginning, Jack and Ennis's shared poverty served as a bond between them, and that Jacks relative affluence later was another factor pulling them apart.

Very good point proulxfan! It was one that I hadn't yet "seen"...so sad.

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Think of the resentment Ennis must have been feeling when he said "You're the reason I'm nothing..."

Did Ennis say that out of resentment for Jack's affluence? :o (<--sam baffled!) I always thought he meant: "Jack, you are the reason why I am like this. My forbidden love for you all these years have kept me confused and agitated. I love you, but at the same time I cannot love you! I cannot find the answer. I don't know how to resolve this. And this is what is keeping me from moving on with my life... I'm stuck here, because of my feelings for you, Jack..." (<--Ummm, ehem...or something in that train of thought)

sam

Oh! And yes, I'm familiar with that term too. ("Doing the 'nasty'") People used to use that term where I used to live when I was little...(mostly when gossiping 'bout someone though...and usually in a derogatory sense...)