Topic: The Invisible Worm

[tpe]

Oh Rose, thou art sick!
The invisible worm
That flies in the night,
in the howling storm

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy.
And with his dark secret love,
does thy life destroy.

- W. Blake



With reference to Blake's poetry, what is the 'invisible worm' that conspires to bar Ennis from true happiness?

Is it the fears rooted in childhood memories of the murdered Earl?  Is it a sublimated but strong respect for the spare and stoic Methodist upbringing of his youth?  Is it an internalization of the values of his stern and uncompromising father?  In short, is it a fear of going against the grain of family/society (the world outside his immediate self)  that prevents him from following his heart?

Or is it more a product of his inability to reconcile his own personal homophobia with his love for Jack?

The two are related.  But, in a way, they are different.

Which was the greater impediment for Ennis?  Society, or himself? 

[Patriot1]

Oh Rose, thou art sick!
The invisible worm
That flies in the night,
in the howling storm

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy.
And with his dark secret love,
does thy life destroy.

- W. Blake



With reference to Blake's poetry, what is the 'invisible worm' that conspires to bar Ennis from true happiness?

Is it the fears rooted in childhood memories of the murdered Earl?  Is it a sublimated but strong respect for the spare and stoic Methodist upbringing of his youth?  Is it an internalization of the values of his stern and uncompromising father?  In short, is it a fear of going against the grain of family/society (the world outside his immediate self)  that prevents him from following his heart?

Or is it more a product of his inability to reconcile his own personal homophobia with his love for Jack?

The two are related.  But, in a way, they are different.

Which was the greater impediment for Ennis?  Society, or himself? 

But tpe, isn't his own homophobia something that grew from the views of society?  If a child is raised in an open and tollerent society they don't grow up homophobic do they?

[tpe]

But tpe, isn't his own homophobia some that grew from the views of society?  If a child is raised in an open and tollerent society they don't grow up homophobic do they?

Yes, I anticipated this point.

Jack probably had an even more brutal and stern childhood (with the horror that was his father).  But it seemed that he was able to pull out of his own personal homophobia into something closer to self-acceptance.  But I believe Jack still had a fear of society at large -- although it was not strong enough to stop him from dreaming of a shared life with Ennis.

The question translates then to what distinguished Jack from Ennis in this regard...

[Patriot1]

The question translates then to what distinguished Jack from Ennis in this regard...

I may be oversimplifying but the difference I see is this:

Ennis was raised in a homophobic society and to strengthen that homophobia was his father and family life.

Jack, on the other hand, while still being raised in a homophobic society was raised by a loving and tolerant mother who accepted him for what and who he was.  His father, like so many fathers that realize their son is "different" just "washed his hands of Jack'" and let his mother raise him.

So, we have one boy raised by a loving and tolerant mother and the other raised by a terrorist father and yet both were raised in the same homophobic society.

[tpe]

I may be oversimplifying but the difference I see is this:

Ennis was raised in a homophobic society and to strengthen that homophobia was his father and family life.

Jack, on the other hand, while still being raised in a homophobic society was raised by a loving and tolerant mother who accepted him for what and who he was.  His father, like so many fathers that realize their son is "different" just "washed his hands of Jack'" and let his mother raise him.

So, we have one boy raised by a loving and tolerant mother and the other raised by a terrorist father and yet both were raised in the same homophobic society.

Patriot1, not to say that the question is clear cut or that there is a clean answer to it, but I just find myself suspecting that there must have been something stronger and deeper inside of Ennis that perpetuated the climate of fear and inability to act on his love for Jack.  The obvious culprit would seem to have been the trauma of Earl's murder (and probably, Jack's subsequent death reconfirmed his fears).  But there is something about him that transforms this childhood trauma into something like a parable of retribution for those who go against the norm.  Jack appears never to have had a similar traumatic experience, but one can plausibly guess that social disapproval was just as strong on his side of the family (his mother being Pentecostal -- 'Fellows like you and me just march off to Hell'), and yet he somehow was able to transcend it within himself.

I guess I am answering my own question: IMO, there is something deep inside Ennis that transmutes his childhood experiences on social disapproval/censure into something all-powerful and all-controlling...

Sorry for this rambling, but I am trying to bring out the underpinnings of my own thought process here.

[Cowboy Cody]

I think the viewing of Earl's body put Ennis into that bubble all of his own, from which he can manuever freely, but never escape.

[tpe]

I think the viewing of Earl's body put Ennis into that bubble all of his own, from which he can manuever freely, but never escape.

Interesting way of putting it, Cowboy Cody: a refuge and a prison.

[Troy]

Even if it were Jack who was exposed as a youth to that murdered gay man, you could not count on Jack turning out anything like Ennis.  His whole basic personality was different. Psychologists are learning more every day how much of the more basic parts of our personality are genetic. I stress -- the more BASIC aspects, not all aspects. The evidence is very strong.  The pendulum is shifting rapidly away from the politically correct, everything is society's fault, you can be whatever you want to be 1960s viewpoint,  back to where we stood long before then. One book to read, not too new though -- Born That Way.

Some of us will be much less affected by the same trauma as others. Some will be happy go lucky all their lives, even if they lived in a concentration camp facing death and unspeakable horrors every day for years. Others have the best upbringing, yet go through their whole life unhappy and neurotic. 

Jack could simply have happy go lucky genes and Ennis had the more neurotic ones. There is a whole spectrum of diseases that go along with the neurotic genes which I wont go into here, but you tend to get many of them together or none at all (migraines, anxiety disorders, etc.)

[francis.shim]

Oh Rose, thou art sick!
The invisible worm
That flies in the night,
in the howling storm

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy.
And with his dark secret love,
does thy life destroy.

- W. Blake


With reference to Blake's poetry, what is the 'invisible worm' that conspires to bar Ennis from true happiness?

Is it the fears rooted in childhood memories of the murdered Earl?  Is it a sublimated but strong respect for the spare and stoic Methodist upbringing of his youth?  Is it an internalization of the values of his stern and uncompromising father?  In short, is it a fear of going against the grain of family/society (the world outside his immediate self)  that prevents him from following his heart?

Or is it more a product of his inability to reconcile his own personal homophobia with his love for Jack?

The two are related.  But, in a way, they are different.

Which was the greater impediment for Ennis?  Society, or himself? 

tpe,.

"Brokeback Mountain" was written with the intention of examining the destructive effects of rural homophobia on society and, in particular, people like Ennis and Jack.  The "invisible worm", in Blake's poem, is an internalized force that erodes all that defines "life" within the "Rose".  In this case, "Rose" represents passionate love especially with reference to its "crimson joy".

If I start with the premise that whatever name we give to the invisible worm in Ennis that incapacitated him from fully realizing a relationship only with Jack, it would have it be done within the context of the story and it's intentions; hence, the worm is homophobia and its many faces that it hides behind:

  1)  Ennis' father showing (and deriding) Earl's deaths -- homophobia
  2)  from (1) we can surmise that Ennis was raised in a homophobic household -- homophobia
  3)  from (2) we can surmise that Ennis was raised in a homophobic society -- homophobia
  4)  Ennis was promised to Alma, before he met Jack shows Ennis trying to abide by society's generalization/expectation -- homophobia (since we know (3))

Now we come to the scene where Ennis feels like his guts are being pulled out.  Clearly, we have a man conflicted.

The internal conflict is only shown through actions and a description of the symptoms, but not the reasons.  Interesting, isn't it?  Both Annie Proulx's original story and the movie unapologetically only show the consequences, but leave the causes up to us (the readers/audience).  The invisible worm must remain invisible so that its "dark secret" is seen for what it really is: an isiduous agent that compels its victims, unaware.

Poor Ennis, he was poorly educated with very little prospects outside of his hard life.  Faced with the wonder of true love with Jack, how could a poor young man assimilate this into his abject life?  One of his favourite quotes was "if you can't fix it, then you gotta stand it.".  This quote, I believe, forms an important frame of reference in understanding Ennis and his invisible worm.

Clearly, Ennis takes a very pragmatic and hands-on approach to life.  His intelligence is concentrated into the silent, stoic and tough cowboy societal type.  Ennis has been fixed into this role, regardless of whether it was society or his own determination.  However, Ennis, when confronted with the fact that he loves a man, Jack... what is it that answers?  Ennis did what he has had to do all his life, he had to fix it and if he couldn't then he had to stand it.  In this case, he couldn't fix the fact that he and Jack lived in a homophobic society and that he could not break his promise to marry Alma... and why?  Because he was afraid that people would find out and kill them... just like what he witnessed with Earl: Homophobia.  No matter where we look in Ennis' life, the sickening trail of the invisible worm gleams in silent victory.  Even while young Ennis was cringing at the shed wall, a passerby notices, then an angry Ennis notices.  Quick to recover the image of the tough cowboy, Ennis angrily yelled "What the f**k you lookin' at".  Ennis is operating in self-preservation mode, he has to maintain the social norm because of homophobia.

The invisible worm has found the "Roseheart" and is feasting on it.

Sorry for the rambling, I hope it makes some sense to what you are researching.

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

PS: I never did hear back from you about the christian symbolisms?

[tpe]

Even if it were Jack who was exposed as a youth to that murdered gay man, you could not count on Jack turning out anything like Ennis.  His whole basic personality was different. Psychologists are learning more every day how much of the more basic parts of our personality are genetic. I stress -- the more BASIC aspects, not all aspects. The evidence is very strong.  The pendulum is shifting rapidly away from the politically correct, everything is society's fault, you can be whatever you want to be 1960s viewpoint,  back to where we stood long before then. One book to read, not too new though -- Born That Way.

Some of us will be much less affected by the same trauma as others. Some will be happy go lucky all their lives, even if they lived in a concentration camp facing death and unspeakable horrors every day for years. Others have the best upbringing, yet go through their whole life unhappy and neurotic. 

Jack could simply have happy go lucky genes and Ennis had the more neurotic ones. There is a whole spectrum of diseases that go along with the neurotic genes which I wont go into here, but you tend to get many of them together or none at all (migraines, anxiety disorders, etc.)

Thank you Troy.  I shall have to look up the book you had mentioned.  I know this is a thorny issue with a lot of people.  I mentioned in an earlier post that I am myself open to both arguments.   Neurosis is indeed to be seen in Ennis -- especially in the scene where he confesses to Jack about his paranoia about otherpeople 'knowing'.  It clearly disturbed Jack.

[tpe]

tpe,.

"Brokeback Mountain" was written with the intention of examining the destructive effects of rural homophobia on society and, in particular, people like Ennis and Jack.  The "invisible worm", in Blake's poem, is an internalized force that erodes all that defines "life" within the "Rose".  In this case, "Rose" represents passionate love especially with reference to its "crimson joy".

If I start with the premise that whatever name we give to the invisible worm in Ennis that incapacitated him from fully realizing a relationship only with Jack, it would have it be done within the context of the story and it's intentions; hence, the worm is homophobia and its many faces that it hides behind:

  1)  Ennis' father showing (and deriding) Earl's deaths -- homophobia
  2)  from (1) we can surmise that Ennis was raised in a homophobic household -- homophobia
  3)  from (2) we can surmise that Ennis was raised in a homophobic society -- homophobia
  4)  Ennis was promised to Alma, before he met Jack shows Ennis trying to abide by society's generalization/expectation -- homophobia (since we know (3))

Now we come to the scene where Ennis feels like his guts are being pulled out.  Clearly, we have a man conflicted.

The internal conflict is only shown through actions and a description of the symptoms, but not the reasons.  Interesting, isn't it?  Both Annie Proulx's original story and the movie unapologetically only show the consequences, but leave the causes up to us (the readers/audience).  The invisible worm must remain invisible so that its "dark secret" is seen for what it really is: an isiduous agent that compels its victims, unaware.

Poor Ennis, he was poorly educated with very little prospects outside of his hard life.  Faced with the wonder of true love with Jack, how could a poor young man assimilate this into his abject life?  One of his favourite quotes was "if you can't fix it, then you gotta stand it.".  This quote, I believe, forms an important frame of reference in understanding Ennis and his invisible worm.

Clearly, Ennis takes a very pragmatic and hands-on approach to life.  His intelligence is concentrated into the silent, stoic and tough cowboy societal type.  Ennis has been fixed into this role, regardless of whether it was society or his own determination.  However, Ennis, when confronted with the fact that he loves a man, Jack... what is it that answers?  Ennis did what he has had to do all his life, he had to fix it and if he couldn't then he had to stand it.  In this case, he couldn't fix the fact that he and Jack lived in a homophobic society and that he could not break his promise to marry Alma... and why?  Because he was afraid that people would find out and kill them... just like what he witnessed with Earl: Homophobia.  No matter where we look in Ennis' life, the sickening trail of the invisible worm gleams in silent victory.  Even while young Ennis was cringing at the shed wall, a passerby notices, then an angry Ennis notices.  Quick to recover the image of the tough cowboy, Ennis angrily yelled "What the f**k you lookin' at".  Ennis is operating in self-preservation mode, he has to maintain the social norm because of homophobia.

The invisible worm has found the "Roseheart" and is feasting on it.

Sorry for the rambling, I hope it makes some sense to what you are researching.

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

PS: I never did hear back from you about the christian symbolisms?

Thank you Frank.  Beautifully and disturbingly put, if I may say so.  Indeed, the 'crimson joy' eaten from within is the passionate love of the heart that festers in the tide of fear and unknowing.  I specifically showed the pic of Ennis overcome with emotions because the conflict within him is not at all known to him.  We know of his love for Jack at this point, and we know something about his fear of society and its expectations that must be met -- but the internal conflict within is something that is not purely from external stimuli (Jack or society) -- it is most certainly an internalized element of homophobia coming to grips with love and desire.

Should we start a new thread on Christian symbolism?  I am tempted to start with the above scene (juxtaposed as it is with the end of the 'Our Father'), but this thread would not be the proper place for it.  I will say this though: Ennis's love for Jack is associated with the path of 'temptation' and the need for deliverance from 'evil'. Indeed, one would say that Ennis pushed through with the marriage to Alma to make his 'salvation' come to pass -- the horror of it all after he is proven wrong after 4 years...

[bram]

It's hard to say what the invisible worm is. A lot of stuff went on in Ennis's life that could have caused it. Then again, I also have to agree a little with Troy. Everyone tells me that I remind them of my father at my age, yet we both had very different upbringings.

[tpe]

It's hard to say what the invisible worm is. A lot of stuff went on in Ennis's life that could have caused it. Then again, I also have to agree a little with Troy. Everyone tells me that I remind them of my father at my age, yet we both had very different upbringings.

Thanks bram.  I could very well be a genetic predisposition.  It would seem that societal strictures are not enough by wsy of explaining the inner turmoil in Ennis...

[Troy]

It's hard to say what the invisible worm is. A lot of stuff went on in Ennis's life that could have caused it. Then again, I also have to agree a little with Troy. Everyone tells me that I remind them of my father at my age, yet we both had very different upbringings.

I don't mean to brag, but I have a degree in research psychology, have done my own independent research, and worked in the field for a while, so I am somewhat critical of research that I read.

Basically, what they do is, they take monozygotic twins (identical twins) who were separated at birth for some reason, and brought up in different families, often in different cities or even countries. There are several hundred of these cases around the world.  They find that they are extremely similar in an amazing array of respects--personality, tastes, interests, etc. Their environment has had a negligble impact on their personaliities, sexual preference, etc. The results of these studies are just amazing.   In one case in that book (granted, these are just anecdotal, but there is solid research in there too), a Jewish fellow was brought up in a supportive Jewish family in a liberal US city, his twin brother in an extremely anti-semitic family in Germany, no one knowing his Jewish race due to a divorce and the child changing hands, yet when they first met much later in life they found that they shared the same values as adults and had incredibly similar personalities and interests. 

They also use non-identical twins in studies and plain siblings raised apart, simply because there arent a lot of monozygotic twins raised separately from birth, although there is enough to get statistical levels well over the 95% confidence level, and even over the 99% level.  The high rates of sexual orientation agreement even in non-twin siblings led the way to genetic chromosonal studies and other physiological studies and hormonal studies such as the hypothalumus and third finger length studies regarding the causes of sexual orientation.

Very little is totally environmental or genetic.  The problem is people tend to think it has to be one or the other, when in almost all cases it is both together. It's a matter of what percent of the given trait can be attributed to being genetic and what percent to being environmental. The more basic the trait, the more genetic it is. We have no trouble believing that a talent, like singing, or abilities governed by the right hemisphere such as art and other creative talents are genetic, and abilities in logic, math and the languages (reasoning, non-creatively) controlled by the left hemisphere are genetic, but for some reason we don't want to believe that personality is also governed by the brain and its neurochemicals.

As you can see, I'm not commenting on the poem. Don't take it personally. I must have been born without a right hemisphere.

[tpe]

Very little is totally environmental or genetic.  The problem is people tend to think it has to be one or the other, when in almost all cases it is both together. It's a matter of what percent of the given trait can be attributed to being genetic and what percent to being environmental. The more basic the trait, the more genetic it is. We have no trouble believing that a talent, like singing, or abilities governed by the right hemisphere such as art and other creative talents are genetic, and abilities in logic, math and the languages (reasoning, non-creatively) controlled by the left hemisphere are genetic, but for some reason we don't want to believe that personality is also governed by the brain and its neurochemicals.

As you can see, I'm not commenting on the poem. Don't take it personally. I must have been born without a right hemisphere.

Well, I am certainly not one who has a fixed position on this subject.  So the above post is as valid as any.

Thanks Troy.

[Troy]

Sorry for going off topic before. What I should have said much earlier was, Ennis was possibly genetically predisposed to have a strong and lasting reacton to the trauma of seeing the murdered gay man as a youth, particularly at that vulnerable age. And that was a MAJOR trauma, don't ever under-estimate that. It would have traumatized anyone to a significant degree, and would have surely had an effect on Jack in some way, but with Ennis it never left him and became an ever present cloud hanging over him. I dont see how you can clearly separate it as either external or internalized homophobia. Something happening at that young of an age, before one is capable of really thinking on one's own regarding values, is going to be incorporated in both ways together, tightly bound together as one big mass of incurable fear, shame, guilt, etc.

[Stephen]

Well, who would have ever thought that a Blake poem I had to study in college a century ago would come back to haunt me because of Tpe and BBM!  I think the "invisible worm" is every thing that our puritanically perverse society has done to kill the life force of so many......genetics and environment  (thank you Troy and Tpe for your provocative posts) cohost our lives, of course, but what matters is how we educate our sensibilities  as we glean new information about our selves and the word around us: how would Ennis have reacted to the information right here on these posts? Could he have worked his way toward  healthier self esteme? When he says, "I swear..." what is he realizing and will this make a difference in his life?

[tpe]

...how would Ennis have reacted to the information right here on these posts? Could he have worked his way toward  healthier self esteme? When he says, "I swear..." what is he realizing and will this make a difference in his life?

Now this would be very interesting.

I think it probable that Ennis would not understand our posts.    But could have been made to understand a bit more the way he felt (with a little help from us, perhaps?)   I can imagine Ennis the way Proulx traces the origin of her short story: an aging ranch hand gazing with some intensity at a group of younger ones.  Ennis in the end probably understood how he was deep inside and how he chooses to love.  That he was certain that he loved Jack is almost a given ('I swear...')  But I don't think he would have valued knowing about the origins and causes of how he loved.  To him, it was probably sufficient that he knew he loved Jack -- and will continue to for the rest of his life.  He will never again deny this to himself, but I don't think he will 'let this all out' into the world.  He will keep it buried deep inside him -- like some hidden treasure whose value is known only to himself.  That was probably the only certainlty left in his life at the very end. 

[Stephen]

I agree, Tpe, that his love would be the only certainty, and he would keep it buried deep inside until the very end. All this is unbearably sad, but so is much of life.

[tpe]

I agree, Tpe, that his love would be the only certainty, and he would keep it buried deep inside until the very end. All this is unbearably sad, but so is much of life.

Stephen, one detail haunts me about Ennis.  He was ready and willing to bring Jack's ashes up to BBM -- even after 20 years not daring to go back, even with Jack (I think this was the implication).  Having failed to get the ashes from Jack's parents, I personally doubt that he would ever again set foot on BBM.  The screenplay and story tell us that much when it is said that the SHIRTS were the only thing left of the magic and power of BBM.

What haunts me is what motivated Ennis to go back to BBM had he gotten Jack's ashes.  I had assumed that it is just to fulfill the wishes of his lover.  But the story and screenplay says that Ennis knew that BBM was gone forever (save in the shirts)  when he was up in Jack's room -- trying to take a whiff at that lost power of the Mountain.  So it puzzles me a bit what he had to gain (or lose) by a belated return.

We know that this is all academic.  In the end, it did not happen.  The 'worm' is triumphant.

[Stephen]

Tpe, this has haunted me,too. I think Ennis would have gone back to BBM only if he could take Jack's ashes there, and maybe with the ashes Ennis could have had something of a cathartic release....but without the ashes, without Jack, the return to the Mountain would be too devastating to bear. But the worm is not, I think, completely triumphant: it has not destroyed the love that Ennis will keep deep in his heart of hearts to the very end. This inner sanctum has remained alive: "I swear....".

[tpe]

Tpe, this has haunted me,too. I think Ennis would have gone back to BBM only if he could take Jack's ashes there, and maybe with the ashes Ennis could have had something of a cathartic release....but without the ashes, without Jack, the return to the Mountain would be too devastating to bear. But the worm is not, I think, completely triumphant: it has not destroyed the love that Ennis will keep deep in his heart of hearts to the very end. This inner sanctum has remained alive: "I swear....".

You are right.  The core of the heart is intact.  Everything else is eaten away. But the core of his heart is intact.

There is mercy even to those seemingly bereft of all hope.

[francis.shim]

Thank you Frank.  Beautifully and disturbingly put, if I may say so.  Indeed, the 'crimson joy' eaten from within is the passionate love of the heart that festers in the tide of fear and unknowing.  I specifically showed the pic of Ennis overcome with emotions because the conflict within him is not at all known to him.  We know of his love for Jack at this point, and we know something about his fear of society and its expectations that must be met -- but the internal conflict within is something that is not purely from external stimuli (Jack or society) -- it is most certainly an internalized element of homophobia coming to grips with love and desire.

Thank you, tpe... I too am learning a lot from these discussions.  It seems that you are alluding to the "Nature vs. Nurture" type of question with regards to the invisible worm.  In my case, I decided not to make the distinction as prevalent, but I agree with you that Ennis appears to have a *internal psychological type* that predisposes him to suffer the way he did.  Whatever it may be, whether "introversion" vs "extroversion" or "thinker" vs "feeler" and so on... and Ennis and Jack (any characters in BBM) probably make great hypothetical subjects to study with regards to their psychological makeups contributing to their life stories.... but that is where I started tripping.

Ennis and Jack are fictional.  Although their characters are based on the skilled observational powers of Annie Proulx and further matured through Diana Ossana, Larry McMrutry and then acted out by Heath and Jake... I had to remind myself that ultimately we are dealing with a fiction.  BUT WAIT... please stay with me... permit me to flip this analysis around.

Ennis and Jack are real.  Why should I state this contradiction?  Because if you qualify it with what we know was an extraordinary amount of work that went into the short story, the screenplay, the movie making, the acting, the reader's reactions, the audience's reactions... Ennis and Jack *ARE* the *psychological types* that we all observe them to be.  Ennis and Jack *ARE* reflections of how we see ourselves, and since we are real then the reflections are real... but only as reflections.

Okay, why did I do that, because my thinking is that when we say that it is an *INNATE* or *LEARNED* characteristic about Ennis that causes him to be the character that he was, what we are really saying is that it is what *WE BELIEVE* causes certain behaviours and not what Ennis is or is not.  The invisible worm has its reflection in Ennis and therefore is only a reflection of what we perceive as homophobia.

The homophobia is not Ennis' internalized homophobia (although I have also agreed with others about this) it is still our own, raw and out in the open.  Ennis is only an open vessel to us.  Through the magic of fiction/movie we are able to see ourselves without really thinking that it is ourselves... and the Ennis character throws it right back into our face.  Therefore, the internal struggle that Ennis has with homophobia is our own struggle with homophobia/homosexuality, open and raw.

I cried because I was facing my own invisible worm and I was saying "Sorry" to Ennis for how his character had to be the one to undergo the suffering he did, because of it.  The helplessness I felt was because he was a fictional character and I am all too real.  It was time to reclaim my fight with my own invisible worm.

That is why I did not want to concentrate on it being internalized just within Ennis.

Should we start a new thread on Christian symbolism?  I am tempted to start with the above scene (juxtaposed as it is with the end of the 'Our Father'), but this thread would not be the proper place for it.  I will say this though: Ennis's love for Jack is associated with the path of 'temptation' and the need for deliverance from 'evil'. Indeed, one would say that Ennis pushed through with the marriage to Alma to make his 'salvation' come to pass -- the horror of it all after he is proven wrong after 4 years...

Sure, just let me know which thread.

Again, I apologize for my ramblings... I sometimes get a little kooky with a subject that I am passionate about.

Peace,
Frank 9aka Jack Nasty)

[tpe]

I cried because I was facing my own invisible worm and I was saying "Sorry" to Ennis for how his character had to be the one to undergo the suffering he did, because of it.  The helplessness I felt was because he was a fictional character and I am all too real.  It was time to reclaim my fight with my own invisible worm.

That is why I did not want to concentrate on it being internalized just within Ennis.

Sometimes, I do wonder just how many of us are eaten up from the inside when watching this film.  I think it is true that we react to this movie the way we do precisely because of who we are, where we came from, and how we struggle.

Whenever I see the 'embrace from behind' (in the cinema or in the mind's eye) I am reminded that, for all the pain Ennis and Jack had and will endure, perhaps it is more than worth it.  And when I say 'Ennis' or 'Jack', I really mean us.

Sure, just let me know which thread.

Again, I apologize for my ramblings... I sometimes get a little kooky with a subject that I am passionate about.

Peace,
Frank 9aka Jack Nasty)

Perhaps we can resurrect the old '3 crosses' thread from a while back?  IN which case, we can expand the discussion to religious symbols in general.  If you want, you can start from this thread, and I will modify the title to suit a broader discussion.  If I recall, it was going that way already in the last posts...