Topic: Jack's dad

[Cowboy Cody]

Y'all are gonna get Cherrycake, coffee, beans, elk, & whiskey! Y'all know you would be welcome any time! :D

[scruffy]

I really don't think Jack's parents knew he was gay.  I really can't see it.  Judging by all the posts on individual threads everyone seems to think everyone is in on the "relationship."  **teehee**  Remember that there are two sides of small town and/or country life.  There are the things that are gossiped and the things that stay with yourself.  "It's nobody's business but ours" is that side of the personal secrets.

The idea of Jack being buried in the family plot is just another way of bringing Jack back into "society."  He will never rest in the open air and freedom he loved.  He will be placed side by side with the dead in a cramped grid.  He can't even escape conformity in death.

[CherryCake]

Y'all are gonna get Cherrycake, coffee, beans, elk, & whiskey! Y'all know you would be welcome any time! :D

What?! no fish!?  teehee

[Cowboy Cody]

I want my guests to have a good time, Not pass out! 

[proulxfan]

I really don't think Jack's parents knew he was gay.  I really can't see it.  Judging by all the posts on individual threads everyone seems to think everyone is in on the "relationship."  **teehee**  Remember that there are two sides of small town and/or country life.  There are the things that are gossiped and the things that stay with yourself.  "It's nobody's business but ours" is that side of the personal secrets.

The idea of Jack being buried in the family plot is just another way of bringing Jack back into "society."  He will never rest in the open air and freedom he loved.  He will be placed side by side with the dead in a cramped grid.  He can't even escape conformity in death.

My belief that Jack's dad knew stems mainly from the passage in the short story where he looks at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. And in the film, there's that wonderful/awful shot of him spitting tobacco in his cup. I can't think of a better way to indicate contempt, short of spitting directly in Ennis's face.
You're comments on Jack's being buried in the family plot seem very perceptive and right on the money.

[Patriot1]

If I was Ennis, I'd sneak up there and dig up that damn urn, put it in my cowboy hat, replace it with fireplace ashes, then high tail it up to Brokeback.

LOL We sure think alike on that one!
That is exactly what I thought when I read it. 
He was my love you dirty ole S.O.B and I will bury him where he wanted to be buried.

[romeshvr]

didn't jack say that his father was into rodeo too... maybe jack's father was just like jack.  however, mr. twist ended up conforming to society and jack did not.  maybe that is why mr twist is so angry/mad at jack.  what do you guys think...

[Cowboy Cody]

I think Mr. Twist was as straight as an arrow, but I think he saw in Jack those things he wouldn't allow himself, in others words, moving away from Lightin'n Flat to grandeur pastures of life and chances at a better living.

[camom]

I'm a little late on this, but congratulations, Cowboy...may all your dreams come true.   

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

camom, it seems we think alike on this subject.  I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago.  I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison.  This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark.  I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially.  I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.

[camom]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

camom, it seems we think alike on this subject.  I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago.  I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison.  This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark.  I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially.  I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

[Cowboy Cody]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

camom, it seems we think alike on this subject.  I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago.  I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison.  This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark.  I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially.  I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.

[camom]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

camom, it seems we think alike on this subject.  I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago.  I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison.  This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark.  I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially.  I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.

The story of what Jack's dad did to him as a child parallels Ennis' childhood story of the murder in its shock and horror.  The only part I didn't agree with was the circumcision aspect.  I didn't think it rang true, not in my experience.

camom

[Cowboy Cody]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

camom, it seems we think alike on this subject.  I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago.  I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison.  This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark.  I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially.  I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.

The story of what Jack's dad did to him as a child parallels Ennis' childhood story of the murder in its shock and horror.  The only part I didn't agree with was the circumcision aspect.  I didn't think it rang true, not in my experience.

camom

I had an absent father growing up, but he wasn't abusive.

[camom]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

camom, it seems we think alike on this subject.  I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago.  I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison.  This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark.  I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially.  I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.

The story of what Jack's dad did to him as a child parallels Ennis' childhood story of the murder in its shock and horror.  The only part I didn't agree with was the circumcision aspect.  I didn't think it rang true, not in my experience.

camom

I had an absent father growing up, but he wasn't abusive.

I'm confused, Cowboy.  What do you mean?  I was talking circumcision, not absence (or were you not replying to my post?).  Explain it to meeeeeee!   

camom

[Cowboy Cody]

camom - just replying to all the thoughts in general in dealing with an abusive parent.

In the book Jack says that after that event and knowing he was different, he was never right with his father.

[camom]

There is no excuse for what his father did, but the part about Jack knowing he was different, just doesn't quite work for me.  Boys that age just wouldn't notice that kind of difference, at least mine didn't.  Being emotionally scarred by his father's abuse, that part I think is pretty clear.

camom

[jason]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.

camom

camom, it seems we think alike on this subject.  I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago.  I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison.  This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark.  I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially.  I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.

And another reason for the anger of the unlovely, marvelously acted Mr Twist:  the theme he harps on all the time is how Jack is going to come up and make the ranch *better* than the ol stud duck has made it --  i.e.  Mr Twist is insulted by Jack's plans for coming to live on the ranch.

[jason]

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

... yeah, from my first viewing he stuck out as the embodiment of malice and venom by society against the likes of Ennis and Jack.  The other is Aguirre.  Venom is the word, and metaphorically they express the hate of society. Implacable, unrelenting hate.  Not pretty.

Your other interesting point.  I've reread the book several times, and Jack's repeated mention of going to Lighning Flat is always to help his dad on the ranch.  Mom never mentioned.  But I agree now you point it out--mom was the bright spot against the unrelieved nastiness of ol Mr Twist.

[jason]

Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia.  Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad).  He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different.  Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times. 

I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life.  Jack is just one more disappointment.  camom

Maybe someone else has made this point, but an another reason for Mr Twist's anger is seeing right there the guy who was going to help turn the farm around--a project I think Mr T felt insulted him and his ranching. 

If Mr T was angry at the implied insult, then he'd be real sore to see Jack's pal who was going to move to the farm right there in his kitchen.

[camom]

The man just exudes venom, doesn't he?  I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom. 

camom

... yeah, from my first viewing he stuck out as the embodiment of malice and venom by society against the likes of Ennis and Jack.  The other is Aguirre.  Venom is the word, and metaphorically they express the hate of society. Implacable, unrelenting hate.  Not pretty.

Your other interesting point.  I've reread the book several times, and Jack's repeated mention of going to Lighning Flat is always to help his dad on the ranch.  Mom never mentioned.  But I agree now you point it out--mom was the bright spot against the unrelieved nastiness of ol Mr Twist.

That's right!  He always says he's going to help his dad through the winter or whatever--and remember in the bar scene with Ennis, how he says, "You can't please my dad nohow"?  Seems like maybe he was still trying to please him anyway.

camom

[sweet_man_1]

hi everyone

i'm new to this thread...
loved the movie of course...

it seemed obvious to me that jacks mom knew, and i think she and her husband (mr. twist) could not have helped discussing it or fighting about it, especially since jack told his dad he was leaving his wife to come up with a guy to live...

i also dont seem to think jacks dad was completely hateful... don't get me wrong, he was abusive and all, but i cant imagine jack wanting to come back and live with his parents and work his fathers land if he didn't have SOME kind of relationship with him...

so, i do think both of them knew...

i also think jacks dad's attitude was typical and to be expected, he was hurt... he didn't reject ennis, he could have kicked him out of the house, he let him enter his sons room, he gave him some insight into his sons dreams... i realize his dad was cruel and harsh, but he could have been so much worse...

[Patriot1]

I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.

John Twist was a rancher.  A simple man with a difficult occupation.  The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch.  He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out.  Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams. Sure he was disappointed and bitter.  Here was one man, all by himself, trying to maintain a ranch to make enough money to pay the bills and keep a roof over his and his wife's heads.  He wasn't doing to well as the huge growths of weeds around the house displayed.

I still maintain John Twist was more bitter that Jack never kept his promise to bring Ennis or Randall up to the ranch to help out than he was that Jack was gay, although I am sure he wasn't overly excited about that either.  I think John Twist would have reconciled himself to Jack's love interest if Jack would have just moved back home and helped out.

So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist.  He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.

[mlrinoc]

I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.

John Twist was a rancher.  A simple man with a difficult occupation.  The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch.  He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out.  Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams.



So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist.  He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.

In the film, Jack claims to Ennis that his father threw him out, and there was no pleasin' him.
I wouldn't blame Jack for a second if he never went back there.

 

[stephan]

I still maintain John Twist was more bitter that Jack never kept his promise to bring Ennis or Randall up to the ranch to help out than he was that Jack was gay, although I am sure he wasn't overly excited about that either.  I think John Twist would have reconciled himself to Jack's love interest if Jack would have just moved back home and helped out.

Hi, Patriot1 !
As usual, you make interesting points. On this one, however, I'm too cynical to agree. Be reconciled with Jack's love interest ? To do that, Mr Twist would have to have so much courage that he could stand up to people like Mr Del Mar who would take a child to see a neighbour rotting in a ditch after his dick had been pulled off. I can't believe Mr Twist would go against his society. Not for his son, anyway.

Stephan

[Patriot1]

I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.

John Twist was a rancher.  A simple man with a difficult occupation.  The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch.  He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out.  Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams.



So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist.  He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.

In the film, Jack claims to Ennis that his father threw him out, and there was no pleasin' him.
I wouldn't blame Jack for a second if he never went back there.

 

No, Jack never said his father threw him out.  He said he couldn't please his father so he took to rodeoing. Well, Jack was gay. I am sure he could never please his disappointed father.

[ethan]

I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.

Partriot1, your points are well taken and I can certainly understand from Jack's father point of view. We don't know completely what goes on in the Twist family. What you have described is exactly the expectation - either individual, family or society on Jack or any of us which one must meet. John is definitely bitter but there is one passage in the short story which makes me chilled in the spine.

"Jack was dick-clipped and the old man was not: it bothered the son who had discovered the anatomical disconformity during a hard scene. He had been about three or four, he said, always late getting to the toilet, struggling with buttons, the seat, the height of the thing and often as not left the surroundings sprinkled down. The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, "You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you, and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra materal that I was missing. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that"

This is only one of the instances. I am not sure how Jack would have wanted to filfulled his father's dream. If I were Jack, I would want to escape this. John may be simple, honest and hard working man - but not a loving father.

For those interesting in continuing the discussion about Jack's father, I recommend you to check out these two topics

The Importance of Jack's Dad
Jack's Dad

[Patriot1]

My mom, thats another story. Dad asked me not to tell her, so I respect his wishes, but somewhere deep down she has to know, but I don't think she wants to hear it. It makes that part of my life tough.

I think it is always the toughest on mothers.  They, after all are the nurturers and they want to have grandchildren to nurture.  It is particularly difficult when there is only one child in the family and he/she is gay.

[matsuki33]

i'm sure he knew it, but he was in denial of believing it. his father didn't liked Jack for one reason, he was gay, adn he can't stand that

[Patriot1]

"Jack was dick-clipped and the old man was not: it bothered the son who had discovered the anatomical disconformity during a hard scene. He had been about three or four, he said, always late getting to the toilet, struggling with buttons, the seat, the height of the thing and often as not left the surroundings sprinkled down. The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, "You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you, and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra materal that I was missing. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that"

This is only one of the instances. I am not sure how Jack would have wanted to filfulled his father's dream. If I were Jack, I would want to escape this. John may be simple, honest and hard working man - but not a loving father.

Yes, I am glad you brought that passage up Ethan.

When I read it I was confused; still am in fact.  I wasn't sure what it was that Annie was trying to tell me.

She points out that Jack was circumcised and his father wasn't.  What was she trying to tell me?  Was Jack gay because he felt less of a man because he was missing something his dad had?  I don't know what she was saying.  Why was that important?

Was she telling me that Jack's dad was a tough son of a bitch and really had no idea how to raise a child?  Well, she succeeded if that was it.  But then, parents at that time (in the 1940's) taught their kids differently than they do today.  I was taught to swim not by going to the YMCA but by my mother throwing me into the ocean.  It was either sink or swim.  I can only hope she wouldn't have let me sink but to this day I have no idea what she would have done.  I know she would have liked me to sink but would she have let me?

Jack's dad was trying to teach him that pissing all over the place was not acceptable and he better get to the bathroom sooner to do all the things he had to do before he pissed his pants.  A compassionate teaching....no, not at all.  But, Ennis's father taught him being gay was not acceptable by taking him to a horrific death scene and making him look at it.  That also was pretty drastic.

So, by our standards today none of the three parents were very nurturing and didn't train their kids in a way acceptable today.

And, I am not sure why Jack pissing his pants would have made his father hate him.  Disgust him sure, but dislike or hate him at 3 or 4???  Don't know.