Topic: Jack's dad

[Patriot1]

Hi, Patriot1 !
As usual, you make interesting points. On this one, however, I'm too cynical to agree. Be reconciled with Jack's love interest ? To do that, Mr Twist would have to have so much courage that he could stand up to people like Mr Del Mar who would take a child to see a neighbour rotting in a ditch after his dick had been pulled off. I can't believe Mr Twist would go against his society. Not for his son, anyway.

Stephan

Yes but Mr. Twist lived so far out in the middle of nowhere who would know what was going on.  Either the story or screenplay tells us is was like 10 miles between neighbors.  The movie shows us Ennis driving home from the Twist home on the long lonesome road where you had better not break down because there was NOTHING out there.  And the father said he couldn't get any help way out there.
 
Hell, Jack and Ennis were closer to other shepherds on Brokeback than they would be at the Twist ranch.

[Patriot1]

i also dont seem to think jacks dad was completely hateful... don't get me wrong, he was abusive and all, but i cant imagine jack wanting to come back and live with his parents and work his fathers land if he didn't have SOME kind of relationship with him...

so, i do think both of them knew...

i also think jacks dad's attitude was typical and to be expected, he was hurt... he didn't reject ennis, he could have kicked him out of the house, he let him enter his sons room, he gave him some insight into his sons dreams... i realize his dad was cruel and harsh, but he could have been so much worse...

I totally agree with you sweet_man_1.  I just do not see this man as this evil monster everyone else is seeing.

[ethan]

When I read it I was confused; still am in fact.  I wasn't sure what it was that Annie was trying to tell me.

She points out that Jack was circumcised and his father wasn't.  What was she trying to tell me?  Was Jack gay because he felt less of a man because he was missing something his dad had?  I don't know what she was saying.  Why was that important?

This passage was recalled from Ennis which Jack mentioned to him. For a kid of 3-4 year old to recall such event, it must have been horrifying. I can barely remember anything what I did at that age. Like you, I am not sure what it meant - could well be that Jack felt less of a man.

Was she telling me that Jack's dad was a tough son of a bitch and really had no idea how to raise a child?  Well, she succeeded if that was it.  But then, parents at that time (in the 1940's) taught their kids differently than they do today.  I was taught to swim not by going to the YMCA but by my mother throwing me into the ocean.  It was either sink or swim.  I can only hope she wouldn't have let me sink but to this day I have no idea what she would have done.  I know she would have liked me to sink but would she have let me?

Jack's dad was trying to teach him that pissing all over the place was not acceptable and he better get to the bathroom sooner to do all the things he had to do before he pissed his pants.  A compassionate teaching....no, not at all.  But, Ennis's father taught him being gay was not acceptable by taking him to a horrific death scene and making him look at it.  That also was pretty drastic.

So, by our standards today none of the three parents were very nurturing and didn't train their kids in a way acceptable today.

True. I don't think the passage had anything to do with parenting or whether John had any idea how to raise Jack. I agree that parents at that time raised kids differently but it didn't mean that the ways these parents or John to be exact raised Jack had not impacted him significantly. Ennis did recall what he had seen by his father and subsequent his deniel of who he really was. Kack said "No way to get it right with him after that." My take is parents can raise their kids without love and in Jack's case, it is not only one instance described in the passage for something like this between him and his father.

And, I am not sure why Jack pissing his pants would have made his father hate him.  Disgust him sure, but dislike or hate him at 3 or 4???  Don't know.

I don't think his father hates Jack. He is surely disappointed and bitter. I also agree that Jack's father is not an evil monster. After all, he wants to keep Jack's ashes. All I am saying is that there is a cause and effect for any kind of relationship. It comes from both sides. Since Jack is the father, he bears more responsibilities.

[My Man Jack]

I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.

John Twist was a rancher.  A simple man with a difficult occupation.  The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch.  He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out.  Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams. Sure he was disappointed and bitter.  Here was one man, all by himself, trying to maintain a ranch to make enough money to pay the bills and keep a roof over his and his wife's heads.  He wasn't doing to well as the huge growths of weeds around the house displayed.

I still maintain John Twist was more bitter that Jack never kept his promise to bring Ennis or Randall up to the ranch to help out than he was that Jack was gay, although I am sure he wasn't overly excited about that either.  I think John Twist would have reconciled himself to Jack's love interest if Jack would have just moved back home and helped out.

So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist.  He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.

So Patriot1, are you always this kind and thoughtful or is this just your internet persona?  I sure hope the person I meet someday has a heart like yours.

Yes, John Twist had some reason to be bitter. Running a ranch alone is not an easy task. 

[My Man Jack]

I also agree that Jack's father is not an evil monster. After all, he wants to keep Jack's ashes.

At first I thought it was awful that Jack's father refused to allow his son's ashes be scattered on Brokeback Mountain.  But, after a little thought, I softened up and wondered if he was really wanting to have his son close to him because he really missed and loved him but was never able to show that love while Jack was alive. 

Just something that crossed my mind.

[stephan]

At first I thought it was awful that Jack's father refused to allow his son's ashes be scattered on Brokeback Mountain.  But, after a little thought, I softened up and wondered if he was really wanting to have his son close to him because he really missed and loved him but was never able to show that love while Jack was alive. 

Just something that crossed my mind.

Now that is a very kind and thoughtful something to cross your mind, my_man_jack. I definitely won't throw that idea out the window. 

Stephan

[BBBOY]

I totally agree with you sweet_man_1.  I just do not see this man as this evil monster everyone else is seeing.

I agree to. Jack's dad was like my dad, he didn't know how to express any love he may have had for his son. Jack was always saying he and some "guy was gonna come and make the ranch right and I expect his dad was hoping that would happen. After all, he,  the dad hadn't done to well by it. In both the story and the movie I got the sense that Jack's dad didn't much care what his son was only that he might help him out.  I find it interesting that Jack's mother, a Pentacost, obviously knew and accepted his sexual orientation.  In the movie she all but took Ennis by the hand and led him to the shirts. Oh mercy, here I go crying again. .......................PBS strikes again!  :'( She was waiting, she knew he'd find the shirts and bring them down. S**t. I can't believe this is happening to me again.  Why can't I have an intellegent conversation without falling apart over all this?

[n061857]

Some very interesting posts here.  In reading the story I, like you Patriot 1, wondered what the significance of Jack being circumcised and his dad not was.   Annie made quite a point of this and being frugal with her words, there must be some deeper meaning.........maybe, just as was said, that it made Jack feel less of a man (boy)

I think that this was a horrible experience for such a young boy and one that would be remembered no matter at what age it occurred. 

I think perhaps Jack's dad knew of Jack's sexual preference very early in his life and perhaps that is why he was so nonsupportive.  He was ashamed of his son.  I think that he was definitely angry that Jack left his family and ranch.  He had counted on his help, when Jack got older and it didn't come (at least to his satisfaction).  I think this is his primary concern: self-preservation.  He would overlook the fact that Jack was gay, if it meant that he had a sets of hands to help him.  He would pretend he didn't know.  But since he didn't have that two sets of hands, not only is he angry at Jack for leaving but he is angry at him for being gay.  He clearly shows his understanding and contempt for Ennis, when he says,"I know where Brokeback Mountain is."  As was stated before, this is where he is telling Ennis he knows what their time on Brokeback Mountain meant.  This is why he couldn't let the ashes go up there.  He didn't approve of its meaning.  Additionally, at this time and place as previously stated, parents expected kids to follow in their footsteps and would feel hurt and resentful if they did not.  I don't think he was mad that Jack would say that he would make the ranch right.  I don't think he was insulted by that.  To be insulted would have been a luxury he couldn't afford.  He was simply angry that it never came to pass and the ranch continued to be his sole responsibility  I think Jack continues to come back to help through many winters for his mom, who obviously loves him.

[BBBOY]

Some very interesting posts here.  In reading the story I, like you Patriot 1, wondered what the significance of Jack being circumcised and his dad not was.   Annie made quite a point of this and being frugal with her words, there must be some deeper meaning.........maybe, just as was said, that it made Jack feel less of a man (boy)

I think that this was a horrible experience for such a young boy and one that would be remembered no matter at what age it occurred. 

I think perhaps Jack's dad knew of Jack's sexual preference very early in his life and perhaps that is why he was so nonsupportive.  He was ashamed of his son.  I think that he was definitely angry that Jack left his family and ranch.  He had counted on his help, when Jack got older and it didn't come (at least to his satisfaction).  I think this is his primary concern: self-preservation.  He would overlook the fact that Jack was gay, if it meant that he had a sets of hands to help him.  He would pretend he didn't know.  But since he didn't have that two sets of hands, not only is he angry at Jack for leaving but he is angry at him for being gay.  He clearly shows his understanding and contempt for Ennis, when he says,"I know where Brokeback Mountain is."  As was stated before, this is where he is telling Ennis he knows what their time on Brokeback Mountain meant.  This is why he couldn't let the ashes go up there.  He didn't approve of its meaning.  Additionally, at this time and place as previously stated, parents expected kids to follow in their footsteps and would feel hurt and resentful if they did not.  I don't think he was mad that Jack would say that he would make the ranch right.  I don't think he was insulted by that.  To be insulted would have been a luxury he couldn't afford.  He was simply angry that it never came to pass and the ranch continued to be his sole responsibility  I think Jack continues to come back to help through many winters for his mom, who obviously loves him.

Excellent observation here. Old John could have cared less if Jack was seeing a Buffalo as long as he was trying to help the ranch.

[matsuki33]

It just crossed through my mind that maybe he was not that bad at all, i mean he never seemed kind of understanding with jack idea of the friend he always wished to brought inn maybe he thought that if jack was going to do something like that it was better to do it in a place he can be there and somehow protect him. i remember that Jack never liked to help his dad then why telling him to live there? could it be that his dad may have influenced that idea?

[n061857]

Actually something has occurred to me.  I don't ever remember Jack telling Ennis he wanted to set up shop at his dad's place?
Am I right?  I don't think Jack's dad was any gem.  He acts pretty contemptuous to Ennis.  But as I said before I think he would have liked two men there to help out.  Maybe his contempt for Ennis was not only his sexual persuasion, but also his anger that his help never materialized??   Maybe Jack thought of setting up shop at his parent's as a matter of economics and convenience, and the privacy it would have provided.  I also think Jack would have wanted to look out for his mom.   -Nancy

[chameau]

Actually something has occurred to me.  I don't ever remember Jack telling Ennis he wanted to set up shop at his dad's place?
Am I right?  I don't think Jack's dad was any gem.  He acts pretty contemptuous to Ennis.  But as I said before I think he would have liked two men there to help out.  Maybe his contempt for Ennis was not only his sexual persuasion, but also his anger that his help never materialized??   Maybe Jack thought of setting up shop at his parent's as a matter of economics and convenience, and the privacy it would have provided.  I also think Jack would have wanted to look out for his mom.   -Nancy

You are right, Jack never told to Ennis that he was looking for his parent's ranch for their possible life together.

[matsuki33]

he didn't told Ennis but on his what his dad told ennis it was kind of evident :S

[*Froggy*]

Maybe his contempt for Ennis was not only his sexual persuasion, but also his anger that his help never materialized??   

yes...also the anger of having his son die full stop..people deal with death in many different ways.

Jack wanting to look out for his mum is a very sweet idea...but like you and chameau said, Jack never told Ennis about moving to his dad's place.

[greenfrog]

Did Jack's dad know he was gay? He's obviously furious with Jack but he's been furious with him since he was a little boy (bathroom scene). He sounds like he's mad because Jack has repeatedly promised to help him with the ranch and never did. This makes a tentative case for Jack having a violent death and his dad finding out that way...or maybe not?

Bathroom scene?

[n061857]

I assume that Jack's dad knows Jack is gay.  Why else would he repeatedly state that he was leaving Lureen and coming up with other men to work his ranch?  I believe he even says that he is going to build a separate dwelling for them.

The bathroom scene is from the story.  Jack is 4 years old and apparently misses the toilet.  His dad urinates all over him and the room and makes Jack clean it up.  In the process Jack realizes he does not look like his dad.  His dad is circumcised and he is not.  I do not remember all the details about the manner in which he had to clean the bathroom, but all in all it was cruel and traumatic to Jack.

[chameau]

I assume that Jack's dad knows Jack is gay.  Why else would he repeatedly state that he was leaving Lureen and coming up with other men to work his ranch?  I believe he even says that he is going to build a separate dwelling for them.

The bathroom scene is from the story.  Jack is 4 years old and apparently misses the toilet.  His dad urinates all over him and the room and makes Jack clean it up.  In the process Jack realizes he does not look like his dad.  His dad is circumcised and he is not.  I do not remember all the details about the manner in which he had to clean the bathroom, but all in all it was cruel and traumatic to Jack.

Yes John Twist mentioned Jack was to build  log cabin on the ranch.

[greenfrog]

I assume that Jack's dad knows Jack is gay.  Why else would he repeatedly state that he was leaving Lureen and coming up with other men to work his ranch?  I believe he even says that he is going to build a separate dwelling for them.

The bathroom scene is from the story.  Jack is 4 years old and apparently misses the toilet.  His dad urinates all over him and the room and makes Jack clean it up.  In the process Jack realizes he does not look like his dad.  His dad is circumcised and he is not.  I do not remember all the details about the manner in which he had to clean the bathroom, but all in all it was cruel and traumatic to Jack.

Oh right. I remember that scene now. Thank you.