Topic: We gotta stick this out

[christie wood]

I have looked on the discussion index to see if this has already been posted as a topic and couldnt see one so apologies if i missed it and if this is repeating previous posts

The scene where the sheep are all mixed and Ennis and Jack are unmixing them: Jack is annoyed at what they have to do but Ennis sees it as something they have to do as he says "what if we have to work for him again next summer?  we gotta stick this out Jack" (apologies if not exact words!)

The more I think about this line and its implications I am inclined to believe that Ennis is hopeful for another summer on brokeback with Jack despite his impending marriage to Alma: due in part to the fact he has fallen in love with jack and can truly be himself when he his with him and also because brokeback is their special place:somewhere they can be together alone and away from the pressures of society and what would be expected of them (in terms of who they should love)

By actually saying out loud that there is this possiblity that they will be together again the following summer says alot about how happy and settled Ennis is at that particular point in time because reality doesnt affect them on brokeback

Its only when they get the order to come down off the mountain that reality hits Ennis and when Jack asks Ennis if he will do it again the next summer he says "maybe not me and alma are getting married in november": Ennis has denied himself as well as jack the one thing they both want: to be together again

I hope this post is clear!  I would be interested to hear what others think about this scene and what it means and if you think Ennis was implying that at that point at least he was thinking ahead to the following summer because he knew that there was no way he would be able to leave Jack and never see him again

(sorry for poor punctuation and grammar: my keyboard has gone crazy!)

[aimi15]

I am inclined to believe that if Ennis didn't already have Alma in his life he would have thrown caution to the wind and spent another summer with Jack - perhaps they wouldn't even have parted after coming down from Brokeback.
Ennis is a very stoical character, tries to do what is expected of him, what he believes is right, so his own wants and needs, for me, had to go on the back burner. I think when he was with Jack up on Brokeback it was kind of like living in a bubble, no-one around to interfere or judge or cast a shadow over their love - only when he realises it is coming to an end (hence the sulking on the hillside) does he realise he has to go back to that other life, the one he had already made a promise on.
When you have time to enjoy something it is easy to put to one side other responsibilities. Ennis' time with Jack was cut short - he didn't have long enough to 'stick it out'...Poor Ennis... :'( :'( :'(

[ak]

Yes, after my several viewings, this "work for Aguirre again" line did stick in my ear.
It must have been unleashed from the bottom of his heart.  He was so liberated up on Brokeback being there with Jack.
I love the following scene where Ennis gives Jack a tender smile.  I think it was the happiest moment of his life.
The pure blue sky, the shooting cloud and the slanting sun shine all express Ennis's emotional accomplishment (it took five days to sort out the sheep) and his deepend bond with Jack.

It is so sad that he had to deny what he said afterwards.

I am a new BBM sufferer.  I am so glad I found this forum.  I came to understand the film deeper reading all your thoughts.  Thank you all.

[atalley]

Welcome AK to our BB obsession.

[myprivatejack]

Above all,welcome AK and enjoy your stay with us ¡  I tend to believe that Ennis was so happy in BBM that,the same than all his sad and lonely memories from the past were deleted while he spent these so lovely weeks with Jack,his future expectedness were then only a blurred image for the same reason.It was only when he realised that all this was going to disappear,that these memories were present again and that he was going to find himself with his future reality,that he got desperate.And his best way to showing it was an aggressive and wild "relief"; fighting with Jack and hitting him,as a way of making him feel guilty for what he had given and received,and,above all,what Jack had made him feel.
I have always thought that Ennis,somehow,hated himself and Jack also sometimes for having discovered inside him what and how he really was.He was always denying his homosexuality,his love for another man,and logically this man must be the object of his rage-more than rage,desperation and anguish...-in such a difficult moments.For this same reason,to protect himself,he adopted a rough and distant position before Jack and before himself-I suppose that,mainly,before himself...-,and he said what he had just realised he was going to do,what HE MUST DO:marrying Alma and being a "real man".Someone said once that he pushed Jack when this one wanted to dry the blood in his nose after the quarrel because if he accepted this help,he had broken down in Jack's arms.I agree in this in a physical sense,and the equivalent can be his "Alma and me will get married in November" in an emotional sense.I don't know if all this makes sense,sorry if not...

[vedrana]

Yes, after my several viewings, this "work for Aguirre again" line did stick in my ear.
It must have been unleashed from the bottom of his heart.  He was so liberated up on Brokeback being there with Jack.
I love the following scene where Ennis gives Jack a tender smile.  I think it was the happiest moment of his life.
The pure blue sky, the shooting cloud and the slanting sun shine all express Ennis's emotional accomplishment (it took five days to sort out the sheep) and his deepend bond with Jack.

It is so sad that he had to deny what he said afterwards.

I am a new BBM sufferer.  I am so glad I found this forum.  I came to understand the film deeper reading all your thoughts.  Thank you all.

 

You are wellcome to suffer with us!

[ak]

MPJ, I totally agree with you.  I found your word "blurred image" the right word for his future expectations at that time.
Probably be he said the hopeful line unconsciously.
What you said about the lasso scene made sense perfectly to me.  May be Ennis punched Jack to make sure to himself that this was a man and he didn't love a man (which was of course not true).

Now that I know how the story goes, the beautiful scenery in the lasso scene and its quietness (birds singing and all) and Jack's innocent laugh at the beginning makes me cry.
 
Thanks!

[tpe]

I have looked on the discussion index to see if this has already been posted as a topic and couldnt see one so apologies if i missed it and if this is repeating previous posts

The scene where the sheep are all mixed and Ennis and Jack are unmixing them: Jack is annoyed at what they have to do but Ennis sees it as something they have to do as he says "what if we have to work for him again next summer?  we gotta stick this out Jack" (apologies if not exact words!)

The more I think about this line and its implications I am inclined to believe that Ennis is hopeful for another summer on brokeback with Jack despite his impending marriage to Alma: due in part to the fact he has fallen in love with jack and can truly be himself when he his with him and also because brokeback is their special place:somewhere they can be together alone and away from the pressures of society and what would be expected of them (in terms of who they should love)

By actually saying out loud that there is this possiblity that they will be together again the following summer says alot about how happy and settled Ennis is at that particular point in time because reality doesnt affect them on brokeback

Its only when they get the order to come down off the mountain that reality hits Ennis and when Jack asks Ennis if he will do it again the next summer he says "maybe not me and alma are getting married in november": Ennis has denied himself as well as jack the one thing they both want: to be together again

I hope this post is clear!  I would be interested to hear what others think about this scene and what it means and if you think Ennis was implying that at that point at least he was thinking ahead to the following summer because he knew that there was no way he would be able to leave Jack and never see him again

(sorry for poor punctuation and grammar: my keyboard has gone crazy!)

christie, I don't think this topic has ever been discussed.  So a BIG thank you to you!

Indeed, I had not thought of this before, and I find your deduction quite convincing.  Why else would Ennis have said something like this?  Perhaps it was a Freudian slip?  Perhaps it revealed more what he truly wanted -- to be able to do this again?  And yes, I would think that it was not until the prosepct of coming down the mountain that the reality hit him.   We see this clearly in the scene where he sulks as Jack makes the preparations to come down, correct?

I would say that this reveals more about Ennis's inner psychology -- of his hopes and desires.  They need not be on par with reality.

[myprivatejack]

christie, I don't think this topic has ever been discussed.  So a BIG thank you to you!

Indeed, I had not thought of this before, and I find your deduction quite convincing.  Why else would Ennis have said something like this?  Perhaps it was a Freudian slip?  Perhaps it revealed more what he truly wanted -- to be able to do this again?  And yes, I would think that it was not until the prosepct of coming down the mountain that the reality hit him.   We see this clearly in the scene where he sulks as Jack makes the preparations to come down, correct?

I would say that this reveals more about Ennis's inner psychology -- of his hopes and desires.  They need not be on par with reality.

It's what I said in my former post somehow; that,while being on the mountain,all past and future situations in Ennis life were deleted from his mind.He knew much better than Jack than these days would have an end,but you know that when we're happy in a concrete situation,we tend to not think about what can happen after it.Moreover,Ennis inner fight has always been between what he wished and what he must do, so,it's easy to have a slight slip of his mind by saying out loud what it was in his heart then,even for a single second...He wished to be with Jack so,of course,it would be logical to repeat their BBM experience next year.But,coming down from the mountain meant to let all these wishes behind and find himself against the cruel reality;he left the reality win the wishes,and he kept on doing the same during the rest of his life.

[vedrana]

It's what I said in my former post somehow; that,while being on the mountain,all past and future situations in Ennis life were deleted from his mind.He knew much better than Jack than these days would have an end,but you know that when we're happy in a concrete situation,we tend to not think about what can happen after it.Moreover,Ennis inner fight has always been between what he wished and what he must do, so,it's easy to have a slight slip of his mind by saying out loud what it was in his heart then,even for a single second...He wished to be with Jack so,of course,it would be logical to repeat their BBM experience next year.But,coming down from the mountain meant to let all these wishes behind and find himself against the cruel reality;he left the reality win the wishes,and he kept on doing the same during the rest of his life.

Well, there's one thing that should be pointed out. That is -Ennis was a responsible person, and Jack was easygoing. Ennis would persist and endure anything if he felt that it was his obligation, but Jack... uh, funny and dear Jack! He would just leave the sheep to separated themselves,  ! So, maybe Ennis' words were his way of persuading Jack to do what was necessary. To explain Jack the reason why they should do it. If you need this job next year, than this year you just have to do it right!... Don't know, but could be... Cos mentioning next year for Ennis was not a new summer love with Jack. I think that even then he knew which path he's going to chose. Poor Ennis! :\'(

  I've just read about the cowboy who was Heath's inspiration for Ennis' character - that is an amazing story! That cowboy had passed very similar inner combats as Ennis, only he ended much happier. Thank God! 

[atalley]

I'm anxiously awaiting its arrival.  I got it used (paperback) on Amazon.com for < $10.

[tpe]

It's what I said in my former post somehow; that,while being on the mountain,all past and future situations in Ennis life were deleted from his mind.He knew much better than Jack than these days would have an end,but you know that when we're happy in a concrete situation,we tend to not think about what can happen after it.Moreover,Ennis inner fight has always been between what he wished and what he must do, so,it's easy to have a slight slip of his mind by saying out loud what it was in his heart then,even for a single second...He wished to be with Jack so,of course,it would be logical to repeat their BBM experience next year.But,coming down from the mountain meant to let all these wishes behind and find himself against the cruel reality;he left the reality win the wishes,and he kept on doing the same during the rest of his life.

He lived for the moment.  And I don't think we can fault him.  I think he had convinced himself that the Eden would not last -- cannot last.  And perhaps this gave him the courage to find some kind of fulfillment in that very short time.  Too bad he didn't consider that it didn't have to be so -- that it could be like this always.

[tpe]

Well, there's one thing that should be pointed out. That is -Ennis was a responsible person, and Jack was easygoing. Ennis would persist and endure anything if he felt that it was his obligation, but Jack... uh, funny and dear Jack! He would just leave the sheep to separated themselves,  ! So, maybe Ennis' words were his way of persuading Jack to do what was necessary. To explain Jack the reason why they should do it. If you need this job next year, than this year you just have to do it right!... Don't know, but could be... Cos mentioning next year for Ennis was not a new summer love with Jack. I think that even then he knew which path he's going to chose. Poor Ennis! :\'(

  I've just read about the cowboy who was Heath's inspiration for Ennis' character - that is an amazing story! That cowboy had passed very similar inner combats as Ennis, only he ended much happier. Thank God! 

Yes.  Good point.  Perhaps Ennis was simply thinking about Jack -- looking out for him.  I don't know if he was more "responsible", but he was certainly more cautious.  We see this even in the exchange about killing one of the sheep for food...

[FlwrChild]

Well, there's one thing that should be pointed out. That is -Ennis was a responsible person, and Jack was easygoing. Ennis would persist and endure anything if he felt that it was his obligation, but Jack... uh, funny and dear Jack! He would just leave the sheep to separated themselves,  ! So, maybe Ennis' words were his way of persuading Jack to do what was necessary. To explain Jack the reason why they should do it. If you need this job next year, than this year you just have to do it right!... Don't know, but could be... Cos mentioning next year for Ennis was not a new summer love with Jack. I think that even then he knew which path he's going to chose. Poor Ennis! :\'(

  I've just read about the cowboy who was Heath's inspiration for Ennis' character - that is an amazing story! That cowboy had passed very similar inner combats as Ennis, only he ended much happier. Thank God! 

I’m going to jump in here in defense of Jack. I think it’s interesting that so many people have that perception because I don’t see them that way.

In this particular scene, I’ve always liked seeing the way they complement each other.

Ennis, the new hand, turns to Jack, who had been there the previous summer and asks: “Well what are we supposed to do now, huh?”

Jack says with both authority and casual resignation: “Get on in there and untangle them Chilean sheep out of ours, I guess.”

Very matter of fact, that’s just what has to be done. Then while they’re working at it, Jack is griping, in typical Jack fashion, about the paint brands, etc and Ennis now shores him up by reminding him they need to hold firm and get the job done.

When Jack says “f*** Aguirre” I don’t think he means to indicate he’s not going to finish the job, just that he isn’t doing it for Aguirre. He’s doing it because it’s part of the job. Just as complaining about the paint brands doesn’t mean he’s going to quit; he just likes to complain.

I thought this was a great depiction of the way they seemed to work so well together throughout the summer. They just seemed to fit, much like those lock tumblers AP refers to in the reunion scene in the SS.

As to their work ethics in general, there’s really nothing to indicate that Ennis has any stronger work ethic than Jack - he just shoulders his responsibilities quietly where Jack likes to complain about his. In the SS after they get together in FNIT, it says …“without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.” I think that both put as much into the job as any 19 year old of the time, doing what needed to be done and at the same time willing to let things slide occasionally to spend time together.

As I said, I really like this scene for a few reasons, one of them being the beautiful balance I see between the characters and the way they seem to complement each other so well. I also love Jack’s “f*** Aguirre” and then the look that Ennis gives Jack as they return to camp, right after his comment about the harmonica.

[vedrana]

I’m going to jump in here in defense of Jack. I think it’s interesting that so many people have that perception because I don’t see them that way.

In this particular scene, I’ve always liked seeing the way they complement each other.

Ennis, the new hand, turns to Jack, who had been there the previous summer and asks: “Well what are we supposed to do now, huh?”

Jack says with both authority and casual resignation: “Get on in there and untangle them Chilean sheep out of ours, I guess.”

Very matter of fact, that’s just what has to be done. Then while they’re working at it, Jack is griping, in typical Jack fashion, about the paint brands, etc and Ennis now shores him up by reminding him they need to hold firm and get the job done.

When Jack says “f*** Aguirre” I don’t think he means to indicate he’s not going to finish the job, just that he isn’t doing it for Aguirre. He’s doing it because it’s part of the job. Just as complaining about the paint brands doesn’t mean he’s going to quit; he just likes to complain.

I thought this was a great depiction of the way they seemed to work so well together throughout the summer. They just seemed to fit, much like those lock tumblers AP refers to in the reunion scene in the SS.

As to their work ethics in general, there’s really nothing to indicate that Ennis has any stronger work ethic than Jack - he just shoulders his responsibilities quietly where Jack likes to complain about his. In the SS after they get together in FNIT, it says …“without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.” I think that both put as much into the job as any 19 year old of the time, doing what needed to be done and at the same time willing to let things slide occasionally to spend time together.

As I said, I really like this scene for a few reasons, one of them being the beautiful balance I see between the characters and the way they seem to complement each other so well. I also love Jack’s “f*** Aguirre” and then the look that Ennis gives Jack as they return to camp, right after his comment about the harmonica.

 

You're right here... well except of that you have to defend Jack from me - I would've never attack Jack. He is the best! But you're right that Ennis silently accepts his duties while Jack is doing the same complaining about everything! You have to admit though that the person who always have so many complaints makes an impression that he's not willing to work. Jack was that kind of person, but you are right when you say that he was dedicated to the job the same as Ennis.

[FlwrChild]

Yes, you're right that the person who complains frequently leaves the impression he's not willing to work as hard, but we know Jack better. 


I also think sometimes that their two different styles say even more about who they are and how they take on the world. Ennis, who stoically rides out whatever he's handed by life, believes that he has no other choice and simply accepts his fate. While Jack, who is constantly complaining, also keeps looking for better alternatives to the hand he's been dealt and never stops hoping that he can make his life better than what it is.

[myprivatejack]

I was going to answer Loreen's post of yesterday,but I think that Barb has done it much better than me... So,I quote word by word what she has said,only adding a couple of opinions:
-I don't think that a person who is always complaining necessarily must give the impression he or she is not willing to work as hard.Sometimes one can see the problems one finds in their work's development as an obstacle for working as well as one is used to do; and it's true that Jack worked hard and well enough as to repeat because a so hard and exigent person as Aguirre had trusted him from the former year.In this sense,I'm going to quote Barb's words:

Yes, you're right that the person who complains frequently leaves the impression he's not willing to work as hard, but we know Jack better. 
I also think sometimes that their two different styles say even more about who they are and how they take on the world. Ennis, who stoically rides out whatever he's handed by life, believes that he has no other choice and simply accepts his fate. While Jack, who is constantly complaining, also keeps looking for better alternatives to the hand he's been dealt and never stops hoping that he can make his life better than what it is.

For me,at least,this is not a sign of being a worse worker or,less still,a worse person; on the contrary,sometimes fight for what one wishes,including a better work,love,or family environment is a much better theory than this one of "if you can't fix it,you've got to stand it".
-As Thomas has said,surely Ennis was,however,more cautious than Jack.In this very moment,he knew very well that there was a work problem,a problem that could mean not being hired by Aguirre anymore(it's to say,a working opportunity less).Knowing Jack's more impulsive way of being,he said that Aguirre could be fucked as a person,but not as a employer;even if I guess this phrase was something said in the heat of the moment...In this very moment,because,I repeat,the situation was more complicated;for the rest of the occasions,we have seen or imagined,that SNIT wasn't the only night when Ennis "forgot" his work duties...
-I still tend to believe that Ennis used the plural in this moment as a unconscious way of saying out loud what he wished,but he daren't to say in a normal situation.Even if he used this plural sense meaning that they can be hired separately,it's sure than sooner or later they were going to coincide again in Aguirre's office...Maybe Ennis wasn't thinking in another summer of love with Jack,being a married man already,but he was wishing it,in spite of himself.My humble opinion. 

[FlwrChild]

I was going to answer Loreen's post of yesterday,but I think that Barb has done it much better than me... So,I quote word by word what she has said,only adding a couple of opinions:
-I don't think that a person who is always complaining necessarily must give the impression he or she is not willing to work as hard.Sometimes one can see the problems one finds in their work's development as an obstacle for working as well as one is used to do; and it's true that Jack worked hard and well enough as to repeat because a so hard and exigent person as Aguirre had trusted him from the former year.In this sense,I'm going to quote Barb's words:For me,at least,this is not a sign of being a worse worker or,less still,a worse person; on the contrary,sometimes fight for what one wishes,including a better work,love,or family environment is a much better theory than this one of "if you can't fix it,you've got to stand it".
-As Thomas has said,surely Ennis was,however,more cautious than Jack.In this very moment,he knew very well that there was a work problem,a problem that could mean not being hired by Aguirre anymore(it's to say,a working opportunity less).Knowing Jack's more impulsive way of being,he said that Aguirre could be fucked as a person,but not as a employer;even if I guess this phrase was something said in the heat of the moment...In this very moment,because,I repeat,the situation was more complicated;for the rest of the occasions,we have seen or imagined,that SNIT wasn't the only night when Ennis "forgot" his work duties...
-I still tend to believe that Ennis used the plural in this moment as a unconscious way of saying out loud what he wished,but he daren't to say in a normal situation.Even if he used this plural sense meaning that they can be hired separately,it's sure than sooner or later they were going to coincide again in Aguirre's office...Maybe Ennis wasn't thinking in another summer of love with Jack,being a married man already,but he was wishing it,in spite of himself.My humble opinion. 

I like this idea, and the way you expressed it. 

[myprivatejack]

I like this idea, and the way you expressed it. 

Thank you so much,Barb ¡  The problem is that I really believe that Ennis did a lot of things in spite of himself... Falling in love with another man was the first one,with all what this means.

[vedrana]

I also think sometimes that their two different styles say even more about who they are and how they take on the world. Ennis, who stoically rides out whatever he's handed by life, believes that he has no other choice and simply accepts his fate. While Jack, who is constantly complaining, also keeps looking for better alternatives to the hand he's been dealt and never stops hoping that he can make his life better than what it is.

This words are so true! And that is the main reason why I love Jack so much! He was always trying to find a way out, a way to survive and he was succesful in it all the way until his sad end! Looooove Jack!

[vedrana]

Maybe Ennis wasn't thinking in another summer of love with Jack,being a married man already,but he was wishing it,in spite of himself.My humble opinion. 

Your humble opinion sounds logical! 

Ennis knew what was going to be, but inside himself he also knew what he would like it to be! And he just spoke up loudly!

OK! Makes sense!

[myprivatejack]

This words are so true! And that is the main reason why I love Jack so much! He was always trying to find a way out, a way to survive and he was succesful in it all the way until his sad end! Looooove Jack!

And why I love him too ¡ I love persons who always look beyond their present circumstances.But,I don't agree with you in one thing,Loreen; Jack wasn't succesful just in what he had liked the most.Poor Jack¡. :\'(

[myprivatejack]

Your humble opinion sounds logical! 

Ennis knew what was going to be, but inside himself he also knew what he would like it to be! And he just spoke up loudly!

OK! Makes sense!

I know,I know...I'm a genius¡  Speaking seriously,surely his subconscious betrayed him in that moment and told what he was in his heart,but he'd have preferred not to be in his mouth...

[vedrana]

And why I love him too ¡ I love persons who always look beyond their present circumstances.But,I don't agree with you in one thing,Loreen; Jack wasn't succesful just in what he had liked the most.Poor Jack¡. :\'(

Oh, MPJ! You shouldn't said this. You've just killed me! I am dead!

But that thing wasn't depend on him solely. He really did his best - he had an idea, a possible money, an opportunity, everything! He only didn't have a power to change the rural society and Ennis' fears.

Jack did complained but in so sweet way that even his complaining I took as attractive and sexy.  

[myprivatejack]

Oh, MPJ! You shouldn't said this. You've just killed me! I am dead!

But that thing wasn't depend on him solely. He really did his best - he had an idea, a possible money, an opportunity, everything! He only didn't have a power to change the rural society and Ennis' fears.

Jack did complained but in so sweet way that even his complaining I took as attractive and sexy.  

I'm so sorry,Loreen,it wasn't my intention... But it's the unbearable truth...

[vedrana]

I know,I know...I'm a genius¡  Speaking seriously,surely his subconscious betrayed him in that moment and told what he was in his heart,but he'd have preferred not to be in his mouth...

You ARE humble indeed!  

 

[vedrana]

I'm so sorry,Loreen,it wasn't my intention... But it's the unbearable truth...

MPJ, more than unbearable! No words for how difficult that truth is!  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

Yes, you're right that the person who complains frequently leaves the impression he's not willing to work as hard, but we know Jack better. 

I also think sometimes that their two different styles say even more about who they are and how they take on the world. Ennis, who stoically rides out whatever he's handed by life, believes that he has no other choice and simply accepts his fate. While Jack, who is constantly complaining, also keeps looking for better alternatives to the hand he's been dealt and never stops hoping that he can make his life better than what it is.

I certainly think that a large measure of Jack's complaining was to get Ennis's attention -- to sort of test his affection.  Haven't you seen, experienced this in real life with lovers, where one complains if only to get the other's attention?

[tpe]

...
-I still tend to believe that Ennis used the plural in this moment as a unconscious way of saying out loud what he wished,but he daren't to say in a normal situation.Even if he used this plural sense meaning that they can be hired separately,it's sure than sooner or later they were going to coincide again in Aguirre's office...Maybe Ennis wasn't thinking in another summer of love with Jack,being a married man already,but he was wishing it,in spite of himself.My humble opinion. 

I agree.  It was a conscious or unconscious show of solidarity.  Ennis had begun to think of the two of them as a "couple" -- if not in the strict sense.