Topic: Jack and Ennis not jealous of women but Ennis livid about Mexico

[dalemidex]

. . .actually I see Ennis as gay man.

OK then.  So we don't agree after all.  Be that way.   

Maybe if we get another 2000 members then SOMEONE will agree with me.   

LOL!  Jack_ME agrees with you!  (By the way, hello my friend Jack!)   And I'm sure there are others.  I have gone down the path of Ennis being straight, but I just can't get the pieces to fit quite right.  When I go down that path I invariably end up at dead ends when I'm looking for motivation, reasons or simple understanding of particular details.  The only way to make those pieces fit is with a broad umbrella answer "Ennis' massive love for Jack is the reason" but it feels flat.  Indeed there was massive love there, but I for one don't believe in love at first sight.  That love had a catalyst.

What is your definition of a "gay man."

This could, of course, be a key stumbling block in this sort of debate about Ennis and Jack. 

My definition of a gay man (and for the moment, let's put aside the question of bisexuality) is someone who feels an emotional and physical longing which only another man can satisfy.  Sexual attraction plays a part, but it's not really the core "it".  And sexual activity??  Heck no.  The physical act is, of course, often a manifestation of a person being gay.  But certainly not always.   

That's why (as I said in some thread weeks ago) I so absolutely love Annie's passage describing the hug-from behind flashback (which we see after the lake scene fight) as a "silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.  That's about the best job of encapsulating what being a gay man is about to me.  And to think it cames from a straight 60-ish female rural writer! 

One last remark about that phrase from the story.  I do not base my opinion on Ennis' sexuality from that line in the story.  But what she speaks of is exactly what I see in that scene, and it's what I saw many times before I ever read the story.  With or without the story itself, with or without Annie and Ang saying both guys were gay, with or without Heath and Jack speaking of approaching the characters as straight men falling in love, I conclude that Ennis was a gay man.  At least in the way I see what it means to be a gay man.

[bram]

I think I completely agree with dalemidex.

[Patriot1]

First of all, Patriot1, you're right - Jack never brought anyone else to his parents house, he only had plans to but they didn't come out. Thanks for correcting me.

...  I never once saw Ennis as being gay.  He was, by strict dictionary definition a homosexual in that he enjoyed and sought sex with someone of his same gender, but gay?....no, I just can not see it.  He didn't go around looking at other men for the purpose of having any kind of relations.  Ang Lee, however said the two boys were gay.  I am not sure he is putting as fine a point on what gay is as I am.  He may think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay.  Not in my book.

But Ennis didn't just have sex with Jack. I'm sure a lot of straight guys have had homosexual sex experiences with other guys, and that doesn't make them gay. I also don't think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay. but Ennis was in love with Jack, DEEPLY in love with him. and he had so much passion and desire for him, you could clearly see it in the reunion scene, he was so nervous waiting for his lover, and when Jack showed up Ennis just couldn't control his feelings anymore. there was SO MUCH MORE than just sex there. and I don't think Ennis had that strong feelings for any of the women in his life, not with Alma (he describes their relationship as "I'm stuck with what I've got here"), and definitely not with Cassie. I'm not sure that Ennis has ever been REALLY in love with a woman in his life... No, if there was "just sex" here it was with the women, while with Jack the feelings were much deeper.

But aren't you saying the same thing I am?  Just because you have sex with a guy doesn't make you gay.  Just because you love a guy it doesn't make you gay.  Homosexual yes, but not gay.

[filazahies]

Sorry, for what I'm going to ask, but what would be then the difference between gay and homosexual? I've always thought they mean the same

[keren_b]

...  I never once saw Ennis as being gay.  He was, by strict dictionary definition a homosexual in that he enjoyed and sought sex with someone of his same gender, but gay?....no, I just can not see it.  He didn't go around looking at other men for the purpose of having any kind of relations.  Ang Lee, however said the two boys were gay.  I am not sure he is putting as fine a point on what gay is as I am.  He may think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay.  Not in my book.

But Ennis didn't just have sex with Jack. I'm sure a lot of straight guys have had homosexual sex experiences with other guys, and that doesn't make them gay. I also don't think that just because you sleep with a guy that makes you gay. but Ennis was in love with Jack, DEEPLY in love with him. and he had so much passion and desire for him, you could clearly see it in the reunion scene, he was so nervous waiting for his lover, and when Jack showed up Ennis just couldn't control his feelings anymore. there was SO MUCH MORE than just sex there. and I don't think Ennis had that strong feelings for any of the women in his life, not with Alma (he describes their relationship as "I'm stuck with what I've got here"), and definitely not with Cassie. I'm not sure that Ennis has ever been REALLY in love with a woman in his life... No, if there was "just sex" here it was with the women, while with Jack the feelings were much deeper.

But aren't you saying the same thing I am?  Just because you have sex with a guy doesn't make you gay.  Just because you love a guy it doesn't make you gay.  Homosexual yes, but not gay.

OK, I think I've lost you there. my point was that I think Ennis IS gay, because he had with Jack something he didn't have with any woman, and I'm not talking just about sex. but I'll have to join filazahies and ask how do you define gay from homosexual?

[Italian_Dude]

Sorry, for what I'm going to ask, but what would be then the difference between gay and homosexual? I've always thought they mean the same

Your right, look in any dictionary and it will tell you that gay and homosexual mean the same thing.

I definately think Ennis was gay..I mean he had sexual attraction for Jake but he fell so much in love with him and they had a 20 year affair. No straight man would let something like that go on for so long, because their relationship was based on so much more than sex that there is no way that Ennis or Jack were truly straight, not completely. Ennis just had to repress his feelings and hide them for Jack because of his fear of being gay because of his father. There is not way that someone is NOT gay, if you fall AS MUCH in love as Ennis and Jack were.. it just cant happen to that extent if you arent gay, or more on the gay side on the scale of sexuality. It wouldn't work. Therefore, all of Ennis relationships with women failed and Jack's with Lureen did too because they ONLY truly loved each other, emotionally, sexually, physically, spiritually. Therefore they are gay/homosexual. But can be classified as bisexual only because they did have sex with women, but that really doesnt mean a thing because neither could love a woman the way they love another man (each other). 

[filazahies]

Thanx I_D

[Patriot1]

Sorry, for what I'm going to ask, but what would be then the difference between gay and homosexual? I've always thought they mean the same

If you are asking me, I differentiate the two this way.

A homosexual is a person who enjoys sex with a person of the same sex.

The dictionary defines "gay" as a homosexual.  But I take it one step further.  To me, a person is gay when they seek out sex with members of their own sex primarily exclusively, and primarily to the exclusion of the opposite sex.  That doesn't mean a gay guy can't occasionally have sex with a woman, but, it is not his normal nature to do so or to even seek out sex with a woman.  To me, a guy who seeks sex with either sex is a bi-sexual.  A straight man who occasionally has sex with another guy is still straight if he doesn't seek sex with a guy regularly, which would then make him a bi-sexual.

Maybe I put too fine a point on it. I don't know.  I just do not see Ennis as a gay man.  Jack, yes.

I sure am glad I don't write dictionaries for a living!

[Mars]

As previously told, I guess- in my opinion-is very difficult to judge about human sexuality in a rigid way, labelling.
It's true:Ennis loves Jack more than the others, but are we sure that he loves Jack simply as
a man or in their story other peculiarities are much more important? Jack is undoubtedly a man.
So their love affair seems homosexual, but this doesn't imply they were both gay.Jack was so special for Ennis
and I would like thinking about persons at first, genders afterwards.

[Stephen]

I agree, Mars, and with Patriot,too: I think in our vernacular there is a distinction between "homosexual" and "gay": homosexual is often used to suggest sexual tendencies toward the same sex, whereas Gay often connotes a mind set, as Patriot suggests, that goes along with being clinically homosexual: to be gay is to have a certain sensibiliy, a certain understanding of the "gay" world at large.....is this making any sense?  But I have a new definition of sexuality a friend once explained to me: He calls it "person-specific"!  This means that some people don't see themselves in the gay or bisexual category, but rather, as Mars says, attracted to a very special person of either sex due to the sheer force of personality!  The sexual energy comes secondarily......Ennis' threat to Jack may come from a deep sense that Jack is the ONLY man for him, but that across the border there are other men who can stand in for Ennis!

[Mars]

Yes, Stephen your analysis and arguments seem to me convincing.
Thank you very much for your contribution.

[dalemidex]

I agree, Mars, and with Patriot,too: I think in our vernacular there is a distinction between "homosexual" and "gay": homosexual is often used to suggest sexual tendencies toward the same sex, whereas Gay often connotes a mind set, as Patriot suggests, that goes along with being clinically homosexual: to be gay is to have a certain sensibility, a certain understanding of the "gay" world at large.....is this making any sense?  But I have a new definition of sexuality a friend once explained to me: He calls it "person-specific"!  This means that some people don't see themselves in the gay or bisexual category, but rather, as Mars says, attracted to a very special person of either sex due to the sheer force of personality!  The sexual energy comes secondarily......Ennis' threat to Jack may come from a deep sense that Jack is the ONLY man for him, but that across the border there are other men who can stand in for Ennis!

Aha!  I think we have some clarity here, perhaps.

To me, "homosexual" and "gay" are the same thing.  I definitely do not see "gay" as being homosexual but also with "a certain sensibility, a certain understanding of the "gay" world at large".  No, Ennis was nowhere near that.  I see those things as often being present in a gay person, but I do not find them necessary for membership in "gay".


What you speak of is, to me, more of a modern construct, and it is a real thing.  I don't deny it at all.  But I don't see it as necessary for being considered gay.  If think of myself, well, back 15 years or so I didn't really understand what I understand now.  I didn't have any sense of gaydar whatsoever, for example.  I knew I was attracted to men and that this is what I wanted from life, but I would still say I was just as gay as I am today. 

This difference in definition helps to explain more the differing opinion of Ennis, at least in some cases.

[Troy]

i think jack really did struggle with sharing ennis.

i think the closeness he needed from ennis being given to someone else (even as a pale shadow) hurt him hugely.  its back to the ---" you and alma --thats a life "  idea.  the fact ennis and cassie could do things openly together --- even dance --- would have been like a knife. i sometimes wonder if he asks ennis will he marry again to once again try and get an acknowledgement of what jack means to him .

its interesting both men dance with the other women in their lives in the movie i.e cassie shawna and lureen  --- and you do get a sense of it looking  and being wrong somehow.

I hadn't thought of that, the dancing thing.  You are right.  I felt with Lureen it was the illusion of romance that she wanted when dancing with Jack at first and note how Jack rebuffs her comments and husbands not dancing with wives when they meet LaShawn and Randall. 

I wonder why Lashawn said to Lureen "We may have to dance with ourselves, Lureen.Our husbands ain't the least bit interested in dancin',they don't seem to have a smidgin of rhythm between' em!

How did she know they had no rhythm,if they didn't dance?...lol.Just a thought.
Jennis.x 

There are other things that require rhythm that neither were doing with their wives. 

[matsuki33]

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

i think jack really did struggle with sharing ennis.

i think the closeness he needed from ennis being given to someone else (even as a pale shadow) hurt him hugely.  its back to the ---" you and alma --thats a life "  idea.  the fact ennis and cassie could do things openly together --- even dance --- would have been like a knife. i sometimes wonder if he asks ennis will he marry again to once again try and get an acknowledgement of what jack means to him .

its interesting both men dance with the other women in their lives in the movie i.e cassie shawna and lureen  --- and you do get a sense of it looking  and being wrong somehow.

I hadn't thought of that, the dancing thing.  You are right.  I felt with Lureen it was the illusion of romance that she wanted when dancing with Jack at first and note how Jack rebuffs her comments and husbands not dancing with wives when they meet LaShawn and Randall. 

I wonder why Lashawn said to Lureen "We may have to dance with ourselves, Lureen.Our husbands ain't the least bit interested in dancin',they don't seem to have a smidgin of rhythm between' em!

How did she know they had no rhythm,if they didn't dance?...lol.Just a thought.
Jennis.x 

There are other things that require rhythm that neither were doing with their wives. 

ehem..... i think that we are like i little OT here plus we don't really know that!!!!

[Troy]

Gay is simply a term invented or at least promoted by the gay liberation organizations in the late 50s and early 60s. The term homosexual had too much negative and medical (also negative) connotations attached to it.  They wanted to emphasize the positive nature of it--people who felt good about their sexuality rather than ashamed.  The two terms are really the same thing, its just a matter of attitude. They liked to use it to describe a man who acknowledged and accepted their homosexuality as a positive thing--someone unlike Ennis.

But today the term has become mainstream and lost this original meaning, and taken on a much broader meaning, pertaining to any homosexuals. Now we have the term queer to cover lesbigaytransexualgendered, gay just means homosexual again.

[Troy]

Having said that Ennis wasnt gay in the original sense of the term, I believe that he was gay in the modern sense of the term.

Human sexuality is so infinitely complex it never ceases to fascinate me. There is so little research done on the huge number of variables within the gay/bi/straight labels and people just keep lumpng everything together.
 
How emotionally attached can a straight man get to another man before he is no longer straight?

Why does he have sex with another man?

What type of men does he have sex with--masculine ones or only ones who are as much like women as possible (such as the huge number of straight men who only have sex with transexuals or transvestites).

This list goes on and on. Someone mentioned some people become attracted to other people, their sex doesnt even play a role.

I think Ennis was gay because he was attracted to a masculine man (not a female substitute) both emotionally and sexually and it wasnt situational--he wasnt just doing it out of convenience. It dominated his life. The only thing missing, out of so many criteria for being gay, was not having that attraction to more men than Jack. And someone above said that was simply because he was attracted to Jack before he was fully aware of his sexuality and so his sexuality became shaped around Jack.  I'm not saying that he was gay just because of Jack though, this type of relationship wouldn't happen with a straight man.

[forbiddenlovers]

Ok, my own opinion, and only an opinion. :D

Ennis was jealous of Jack with other men because that was the one thing they had between them.  He didn't get jealous over women and Jack because that's what they had to do. They couldn't be gay, come out, live together, any of that, in Ennis' mind. But being with women was part of their lives, they had to so that no one suspected. But Ennis, in particular, and Jack also for that matter, never admit to being gay. What they shared was between them, no other men. Ennis didn't go looking for other men to hook up with, only Jack. To hear that Jack was hooking up wtih other men, angered Ennis because he truly was in love with Jack and that was the bond between them, their get togethers and their love, although they never said it to each other.  Also, maybe Ennis finding out that Jack was with other men, made Ennis realize Jack was gay, and that was something Ennis would never tell himself that he was, and he couldn't stand the fact that Jack was gay.  I don't know. This movie leaves more questions unanswered than answered, but honestly, that's why I like it. It's made it more interesting and a movie I'm more than happy to go back and watch over and over again. :D

[Jennis]

I have read a lot of the messages on this site but no one has touched on my topic. Ennis and Jake are never threatened about the women in their lives. Ennis even laughs when Jack says he has a "thing" going on with a foreman's wife, but threatens to kill Jake about going to Mexico. I felt it showed more than anything that understood who they were and only another male could come between them.

Shouldn't this thread say Jack and Ennis...You put Jake.

Hugs
Jennis.x

[forbiddenlovers]

Jake/Jack...So similar and hard to type, lol. I don't know how many times I've put Jake and then had to edit or backspace and change it, lol

ann

[Stephen]

Ok, my own opinion, and only an opinion. :D

Ennis was jealous of Jack with other men because that was the one thing they had between them.  He didn't get jealous over women and Jack because that's what they had to do. They couldn't be gay, come out, live together, any of that, in Ennis' mind. But being with women was part of their lives, they had to so that no one suspected. But Ennis, in particular, and Jack also for that matter, never admit to being gay. What they shared was between them, no other men. Ennis didn't go looking for other men to hook up with, only Jack. To hear that Jack was hooking up wtih other men, angered Ennis because he truly was in love with Jack and that was the bond between them, their get togethers and their love, although they never said it to each other.  Also, maybe Ennis finding out that Jack was with other men, made Ennis realize Jack was gay, and that was something Ennis would never tell himself that he was, and he couldn't stand the fact that Jack was gay.  I don't know. This movie leaves more questions unanswered than answered, but honestly, that's why I like it. It's made it more interesting and a movie I'm more than happy to go back and watch over and over again. :D

I agree; what you say makes sense to me; Ennis and Jack have different needs, different takes on what they want from life, but each acknowledges that the other is the one true love. But Jack needs the on-going sexual contacts whereas Ennis seems fine waiting for the next rendezvous with Jack. Yes, it's ineresting to note that relations with women is an accepted part of their lives, and elicits no jealous feelings, whereas today, with those who are openly gay, if one's lover dallies with either sex, this would be cause for jealousy.

[Patriot1]

I agree; what you say makes sense to me; Ennis and Jack have different needs, different takes on what they want from life, but each acknowledges that the other is the one true love. But Jack needs the on-going sexual contacts whereas Ennis seems fine waiting for the next rendezvous with Jack. Yes, it's ineresting to note that relations with women is an accepted part of their lives, and elicits no jealous feelings, whereas today, with those who are openly gay, if one's lover dallies with either sex, this would be cause for jealousy.

Could it be that Ennis isn't gay and is only a homosexual in the strictest sence of the word?  Wouldn't that explain his Jack/Mexico reaction of the threat?  Wouldn't that explain his not saying anything and just looking off into the fire when Jack tells him he misses him so much he can hardly stand it?  Ennis doesn't know what Jack could mean? After all, Jack always lied to Ennis about him being "queer."

[Short Leash]

I have read a lot of the messages on this site but no one has touched on my topic. Ennis and Jake are never threatened about the women in their lives. Ennis even laughs when Jack says he has a "thing" going on with a foreman's wife, but threatens to kill Jake about going to Mexico. I felt it showed more than anything that understood who they were and only another male could come between them.

I'm so glad you started this thread since, I found it to be one of the most interesting aspects of the movie. I read through all of the posts and really enjoyed hearing all of the different views and very good points. I also noticed how it naturally turned from a question about jealosy of other woman vs jealosy of other men, to the question of who's gay. Then it occured to me that, the first question begs the second since it is really the same question. Perhaps, the whole reason that part of the story is told, was to give us the answer to the question of their natural sexuality. In other words. The very fact that they are only concerned about their male relationships is because they are both only threatened by what they know is their real true desires. That whole scene plus the discussion about mexico etc., seems to answer that question for me. 

[greenfrog]

Ok, my own opinion, and only an opinion. :D

Ennis was jealous of Jack with other men because that was the one thing they had between them.  He didn't get jealous over women and Jack because that's what they had to do. They couldn't be gay, come out, live together, any of that, in Ennis' mind. But being with women was part of their lives, they had to so that no one suspected. But Ennis, in particular, and Jack also for that matter, never admit to being gay. What they shared was between them, no other men. Ennis didn't go looking for other men to hook up with, only Jack. To hear that Jack was hooking up wtih other men, angered Ennis because he truly was in love with Jack and that was the bond between them, their get togethers and their love, although they never said it to each other.  Also, maybe Ennis finding out that Jack was with other men, made Ennis realize Jack was gay, and that was something Ennis would never tell himself that he was, and he couldn't stand the fact that Jack was gay.  I don't know. This movie leaves more questions unanswered than answered, but honestly, that's why I like it. It's made it more interesting and a movie I'm more than happy to go back and watch over and over again. :D

Great post Forrbiddenlove 

I think Ennis was angry with Jack going to Mexico because (to him) that made their relationship more than a "one shot" deal.

If he was with a woman, than, to Ennis it wouldn't matter as much because that was what was expected of them.

[Short Leash]

"You been to Mexico, Jack? I heard about what they got in Mexico for boys like you."

If I may spill my 2 cents on this quote by Ennis, I kind of felt that Ennis had liscence to say something like that to Jack sort of in the same way it's ok for comics to make fun of their own people of the same ethnicity. So, to me it meant that yeah, Ennis was allowed to label Jack because he himself was also gay which made it kind of ok. Hope I'm making sense.

[tpe]

"You been to Mexico, Jack? I heard about what they got in Mexico for boys like you."

If I may spill my 2 cents on this quote by Ennis, I kind of felt that Ennis had liscence to say something like that to Jack sort of in the same way it's ok for comics to make fun of their own people of the same ethnicity. So, to me it meant that yeah, Ennis was allowed to label Jack because he himself was also gay which made it kind of ok. Hope I'm making sense.

Ah, but did Ennis think he was gay? This is the million dollar question! 

[welshwitch]

Surely in using "boys like you" Ennis explicitly excludes himself from the category in which he places Jack. He sees Jack, maybe for the first time, as "queer" or gay, because he goes looking for sex with other men. He doesn't do that so clearly diesn't see himself as being like Jack.

[Patriot1]

"You been to Mexico, Jack? I heard about what they got in Mexico for boys like you."

If I may spill my 2 cents on this quote by Ennis, I kind of felt that Ennis had liscence to say something like that to Jack sort of in the same way it's ok for comics to make fun of their own people of the same ethnicity. So, to me it meant that yeah, Ennis was allowed to label Jack because he himself was also gay which made it kind of ok. Hope I'm making sense.

Ah, but did Ennis think he was gay? This is the million dollar question! 

I don't believe so, at least not until he found the shirts and realized Jack was in love with him and he was in love with Jack.

[tpe]

I tend to agree.  Ennis's comments about Mexico do also seem to indirectly agree with this view.

[aintfoolin]

I read this thread and came to agree with some and respectfully disagree with other comments. Ennis had the opportunity to be with two women in the film  Alma being one ,Cassie the other and both relationships failed because of Ennis's inablity to forget Jack. another man. wether that makes him gay.homosexual or what ever it says one thing loud and clear Ennis loved Jack Twist Alma and two wonderful daughters  could'nt stop it, nor could Cassie , a beautiful and desirable woman in any straight man's book that I know. So why does Ennis hold onto this relationship with Jack for almost 20 years? I think it was definitly more than sex. There was a bond there that only people who grow together could have. Important similarities also played a part too. Both had strict and abusive fathers, and both struggled on their own at an early age.And that's before they even met at Aguirre's trailor. Both experienced rejection at an early age. this may be part of the attraction, similar expperiences. Ennis dealt with his by shutting down and buttoning up. Jack on  the other hand sought openess of the rodeo and crowds that cheered him . Ennis married a woman and Jack followed suit, but the  love was still there for each other.  The need to be accepted and to "belong" somewhere was apparent. Well they found it in each other and Ennis grew protective of Jack. Seems everything they were robbed of as young boys they found in each other.  IMO it is the acceptance and the completion they found in each other that held them together for so long and the love grew along with that.  They grew to know each other so well. This would explain the jealousy,anger and hurt that Ennis had when he found out that Jack had shared the most intimate part of their relationship with other men, strangers at that. Ennis considered Jack to be his partner and HIS alone in every way. The women they had were only victims of circumstance and they both knew it so they were'nt threats  Men were because they would have to be on the same wavelength , same mindset as them and would be alot more appealing to either one of them.in a relationship,  therefore it would be harder to pull them back from the other guy. If Ennis found out about Randall ,Jack would definitly have a serious problem with Ennis . Anyway gay or straight men are men and their jealous reactions are basically the same.This is IMHO

[welshwitch]

I agree, aintfoolin. What they had together was unique to them - the relationships with their wives were nothing like as significant and of a different nature entirely. Ennis was never interested in other men; when he found that Jack was, he was fiurious because Jack had allowed another man, or men, to intrude into what was to him an exclusive relationship, himself and Jack. It was to hoim a betrayal in a way that Cassie or Lureen weren't.