Author Topic: Jack and Ennis not jealous of women but Ennis livid about Mexico (Read 77867 times)

Jennis · « **Reply #60 on:** Oct 28, 2006, 04:16 PM »

Can the thread title be changed to Jack please

...

Jennis.x

Audrey twist · « **Reply #61 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 07:47 AM »

He had Good reason to feel resentful

lamusica · « **Reply #62 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 07:06 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 28, 2006, 10:53 AM

I agree, aintfoolin. What they had together was unique to them - the relationships with their wives were nothing like as significant and of a different nature entirely. Ennis was never interested in other men; when he found that Jack was, he was fiurious because Jack had allowed another man, or men, to intrude into what was to him an exclusive relationship, himself and Jack. It was to hoim a betrayal in a way that Cassie or Lureen weren't.

TGhat's how I see it, too. Jack couldn't hurt Ennis with another woman, but with another man, he was betrayed and sickened. I was happy to see Ennis so worked up over Jack's going to Mexico. It showed another human side to Ennis.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #63 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 05:10 AM »

This is true. It also brought out Ennis's jeaulous streak. He put on the tough act lashing out and shoving Jack, even threartining his life over "all them things" he did'nt know. But deep inside Ennis was hurting. He felt Jack's soul....and body... belonged to him and him alone. The knowledge of Jack's cheating shattered Ennis inside. IMO this was a turning point in their relationship. Ennis had to admit that Jack may be open to other options,,,that don't include him. This scared the crap out of him and he broke down. It was never this deep with Alma or Cassie.

tpe · « **Reply #64 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 09:06 AM »

Yes, it does show how much Ennis cared about his relationship with Jack. It does make him much more human. We would think he was the model of the stoic individual --- being able to take in anything with equanimity. In a way, it is so nice to see that he did not want to share Jack with any other man. I wonder if Jack also recognized this as a manifestation of Ennis's love for him? Because of the context (the final meeting), it is hard to say...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #65 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 04:40 PM »

I think he did. That's why he never told Ennis about Randall. Instead he lied about it.

Short Leash · « **Reply #66 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 09:16 PM »

I think that this is the most telling part of the whole movie in showing and proving how deep their love was.

tpe · « **Reply #67 on:** Nov 30, 2006, 10:14 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 29, 2006, 04:40 PM

I think he did. That's why he never told Ennis about Randall. Instead he lied about it.

Yes.

If Jack ever told Ennis about his trips to Mexico, I think he would also have omitted the visits to prostitutes. But whatever he could have said, I suspect that Jack knew that Ennis understood the subtext about his Mexico trips. This raises the question as to whether Jack ever told Ennis about his trips to Mexico before the last meeting. I suspect he did, but can't prove it.

welshwitch · « **Reply #68 on:** Nov 30, 2006, 11:36 AM »

I think Ennis had only guessed before and not all that long before, either. In the ss it says. "Mexico was the place. He's heard." and in the scripts he asks "You Mexico, Jack?" which suggests to me that he's heard about why people went there and connected it with Jack in this scene, because Jack says they should go there and Ennis joins up the dots. He knows that he's lost everything for Jack and Jack has betrayed him with other men - Randall isn't necessarily in his mind but maybe he's twigged now that the ranch foreman's wife was really the ranch foreman.

If this happened, you'd see someone in a quite different way - while you have suffered and endured his absence, he's found ways of coping with yours that exclude and maybe threaten you.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #69 on:** Dec 02, 2006, 11:18 PM »

Yeah he simlpy put 2 and 2 together.And then became totally livid. If Ennis had'nt guessed ,I agree Jack would not have told Ennis about the hustlers. He would have spared Ennis that hurt. Jack never meant to hurt em like that . He did it out of desperate need. Besides Ennis was partly to blame for this in my opinion. Maybe he should'nt have dealt with it that way but who could blame him?

. Only 2 or 3 times a year? No f**##n way!

Short Leash · « **Reply #70 on:** Dec 02, 2006, 11:29 PM »

as upsetting as that scene is, for me I think it's the most exciting part of the movie. To me it shows their love for each other.

tpe · « **Reply #71 on:** Dec 04, 2006, 10:01 AM »

I agree. The last meeting is one of the most vividly dramatic scenes in this movie that is domianted by quietly intense scenes.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #72 on:** Dec 04, 2006, 02:51 PM »

yes, I agree witth you tpe , I like to think of it as the culmination of AND the unraveling of everything that lead up to it. It was beautifully acted out by these two talented actors.

tpe · « **Reply #73 on:** Dec 05, 2006, 10:43 AM »

The scene kills us because we see this unraveling, no? What starts as a spat about the next meeting leads to recriminations and threats -- I do believe that in the veiled threat about Mexico, Ennis was questioning Jack's love and commitment to him. Jack understood this, and took things one step further by making Ennis face up to his own frustration on 20 years of missed opportunity -- an opportunity that he offered Ennis and was turned down. How a small things lead to the dark heart of their predicament and in so quick a span of time is so breathtaking.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #74 on:** Dec 06, 2006, 06:41 AM »

Jack's face during the scene when they are gathering their stuff to leave is so sad . He's already upset about parting in the first place.Then when Ennis lays it on him about not gettin together again till nov Jack slams the truck door and says " you had all week to say something about this". (or words to that affect) Jack seemes like was pissed that Ennis kept this important info secret till they were driving off almost. It was the last straw for Jack IMO. Every thing he hated about the f**ked up situation came out. Before it was over with they'd both gone totally ballistic on each other, but I love this scene. It really shows how hard they were willing to fight for their love.Ennis would have givin Jack the moon and the stars if he asked him to but just could'nt make that leap to a commited sweet life with him.

tpe · « **Reply #75 on:** Dec 06, 2006, 09:05 AM »

Yes, I loved it precisely because they didn't show Ennis to be indifferent. This is when we see him openly jealous. If there is anything we can glean from his veiled threat about Mexico, it is his passion for Jack.

Short Leash · « **Reply #76 on:** Dec 06, 2006, 09:13 PM »

I'm not sure if this would be another thread but, I thought it would be a fun thing to point out all the subtle and not so subtle ways that Ennis shows his love for Jack. A subtle example would be how he moped when he found out they had to leave BBM. A less than subtle way would be the fact that he did end up broke as he stated himself, "It's because of you that I'm nothin, I'm nowhere" It show how he gave up his own life for stolen moments with Jack.

BBBOY · « **Reply #77 on:** Dec 06, 2006, 09:25 PM »

Very well put Short Leash.

lamusica · « **Reply #78 on:** Dec 06, 2006, 10:09 PM »

I love this scene, too. It leaves me wanting to know more. What were the results of this scene? What happened next? Where did the two take up again, or did Jack's death stop the resolution of this scene? This is the kind of scene that lends itself to so many interpretations, and leaves us all wanting more.
From the surface of the scene, it seems as if a lot of things were said that won't be able to be taken back -- that the men will have to either part, or change their relationship. Something will have to happen now that the climax has been reached. But what comes now?

I love this conundrum; it peaks my interest. It is often in the denoument that the characters of the characters come to light fully.

tpe · « **Reply #79 on:** Dec 07, 2006, 09:32 AM »

Quote from: Short Leash on Dec 06, 2006, 09:13 PM

I'm not sure if this would be another thread but, I thought it would be a fun thing to point out all the subtle and not so subtle ways that Ennis shows his love for Jack. A subtle example would be how he moped when he found out they had to leave BBM. A less than subtle way would be the fact that he did end up broke as he stated himself, "It's because of you that I'm nothin, I'm nowhere" It show how he gave up his own life for stolen moments with Jack.

OT:

I am sure that there is already such a thread. It is quite old, and may take some time locating. It is probably in the index of topics...

Note that there is also a thread entirely devoted to the meaning of Ennis's statement: "It's because of you that I'm nothin, I'm nowhere".

Short Leash · « **Reply #80 on:** Dec 07, 2006, 10:01 AM »

Quote

Note that there is also a thread entirely devoted to the meaning of Ennis's statement: "It's because of you that I'm nothin, I'm nowhere".

Hmm, I want to read that one!

tpe · « **Reply #81 on:** Dec 07, 2006, 10:41 AM »

Short Leash, I think I was the one who started the old thread. It should be in the index. I'll do some research...

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #82 on:** Dec 07, 2006, 11:27 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Dec 06, 2006, 10:09 PM

I love this scene, too. It leaves me wanting to know more. What were the results of this scene? What happened next? Where did the two take up again, or did Jack's death stop the resolution of this scene? This is the kind of scene that lends itself to so many interpretations, and leaves us all wanting more.
From the surface of the scene, it seems as if a lot of things were said that won't be able to be taken back -- that the men will have to either part, or change their relationship. Something will have to happen now that the climax has been reached. But what comes now?

I love this conundrum; it peaks my interest. It is often in the denoument that the characters of the characters come to light fully.

I know what you mean, it's so frustrating that there was no resolution to that scene, because I believe that there's no way they could have carried on as they were after that, they both said things that couldn't be taken back, especially Jack. It must have been cathartic for Jack, after all those years of just accepting their relationship on Ennis's terms, he finally got to tell Ennis how much pain and frustration he went through, which I don't think Ennis realised until then. Of course it wasn't easy for Ennis either, and he was hurt and angry about Jack's infidelity, but after he'd had time to calm down, he would've realised that they couldn't carry on as they were, the wounds getting deeper every time they met and then parted again, so he would've been faced with a choice of either ending it for good, or making a go of that "sweet life" with Jack. I can't see the former being an option, despite him telling Jack to go ahead and quit him, so I truly believe the next meeting would have seen them taking the first step towards their "sweet life" together, if only... :\'(
I wish Ennis had told Jack about not being able to meet him until November earlier in the week. I totally understand why he left it until the last minute, but if only they'd had more time together after the argument, they would've been forced to discuss it and found a way to fix things, and Jack would've still been alive and they'd be happy together...But of course, it's easy to say that with hindsight :\'(

lamusica · « **Reply #83 on:** Dec 08, 2006, 01:30 AM »

One of my favorite shots of Ennis is him standing by the truck door, rubbing his fingers over the chrome while telling Jack he can't come until November. This action was SO real. He looked just like a little boy who has to tell an adult something he really does not want to telll. He knows Jack will go ballistic, so he tried to put it off as long as possible. However, eventually, he had to tell him. He got a lot more than he expected, though, I think. I just love Ennis's face in that little section of the scene. I've dealt with lots of little kids in my life and that's exactly how they acted. I don't know who directed that scene, but they sure got it right.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #84 on:** Dec 10, 2006, 03:33 AM »

Jack was in no mood to hear this either. The night before , he had already told Ennis that he missed him so much sometimes that he could hardly stand it. Maybe he was hinting to Ennis once again that he could'nt go on like this. He got no response. So by the time Ennis dropped this bombshell on Jack he had to feel that he had given Ennis "more than an inch" and here he was taking "a mile" by telling him this at the last minute, and with this the realization that he had givin Ennis to much control in the whole affair. By now he is ready to lay down some laws of his own, and boy did he ever.

He'd had enough. wether he got through to Ennis (IMO he did) was left up for grabs, but Ennis did send another postcard wanting to meet at Pinecreek and that's telling. But just like before Ennis had to go off for awhile and think about it. This time he did'nt have the luxury of time. In card jargon: He HAD the Jack of diamomds AND the King of hearts, but he because he did'nt play his cards soon enough, he dealt himself out and fate played him. Game over.

lamusica · « **Reply #85 on:** Dec 10, 2006, 12:17 PM »

I like your card analogy. Isn't everything about timing? IN this story, it seems to be. Jack's untimely and unexpected death cuts short a world of possibilities, and we'll never know what could have been.

greenfrog · « **Reply #86 on:** Dec 10, 2006, 08:01 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 10, 2006, 03:33 AM

Jack was in no mood to hear this either. The night before , he had already told Ennis that he missed him so much sometimes that he could hardly stand it. Maybe he was hinting to Ennis once again that he could'nt go on like this. He got no response. So by the time Ennis dropped this bombshell on Jack he had to feel that he had given Ennis "more than an inch" and here he was taking "a mile" by telling him this at the last minute, and with this the realization that he had givin Ennis to much control in the whole affair. By now he is ready to lay down some laws of his own, and boy did he ever. He'd had enough. wether he got through to Ennis (IMO he did) was left up for grabs, but Ennis did send another postcard wanting to meet at Pinecreek and that's telling. But just like before Ennis had to go off for awhile and think about it. This time he did'nt have the luxury of time. In card jargon: He HAD the Jack of diamomds AND the King of hearts, but he because he did'nt play his cards soon enough, he dealt himself out and fate played him. Game over.

This thread is making me cry so much :\'( :\'( :\'(

Short Leash · « **Reply #87 on:** Dec 11, 2006, 09:35 AM »

I think one of the saddest parts for me about this is that I think when Ennis said "why don't you leave me alone, and went on to say it's because of you I'm like this etc. I believe Jack loved Ennis so much that he didn't want to do that to him anymore, so he really did leave him alone and tried to make a life without him. It ended up tragically but, even if Jack didn't die, I think he would have stayed away from Ennis and maybe that would have been even harder for both of them to live with. Knowing they were both alive but, not being together.

welshwitch · « **Reply #88 on:** Dec 11, 2006, 02:03 PM »

If you love someone and they don't love you, it's hell knowing you exist on the same planet but they don't want to share the same part of it with you. How much worse to know that you love someone and in their way they love you, but they don't want to share a life with you, though they are so frustrated that they resort to sex with others.

tpe · « **Reply #89 on:** Dec 13, 2006, 11:47 AM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Dec 07, 2006, 11:27 AM

I know what you mean, it's so frustrating that there was no resolution to that scene, because I believe that there's no way they could have carried on as they were after that, they both said things that couldn't be taken back, especially Jack. It must have been cathartic for Jack, after all those years of just accepting their relationship on Ennis's terms, he finally got to tell Ennis how much pain and frustration he went through, which I don't think Ennis realised until then. Of course it wasn't easy for Ennis either, and he was hurt and angry about Jack's infidelity, but after he'd had time to calm down, he would've realised that they couldn't carry on as they were, the wounds getting deeper every time they met and then parted again, so he would've been faced with a choice of either ending it for good, or making a go of that "sweet life" with Jack. I can't see the former being an option, despite him telling Jack to go ahead and quit him, so I truly believe the next meeting would have seen them taking the first step towards their "sweet life" together, if only... :\'(
I wish Ennis had told Jack about not being able to meet him until November earlier in the week. I totally understand why he left it until the last minute, but if only they'd had more time together after the argument, they would've been forced to discuss it and found a way to fix things, and Jack would've still been alive and they'd be happy together...But of course, it's easy to say that with hindsight :\'(

I do think that the discussion about Mexico and the ensuing argument was cathartic for Jack. It was at that point that we see him finally broken -- hope and love taking their own separate ways. The dozy embrace is the cumlination of that union -- the final remembrance of a hope and a love that were about to be parted.

Author Topic: Jack and Ennis not jealous of women but Ennis livid about Mexico (Read 77867 times)

greenfrog