Author Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers  (Read 303365 times)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #270 on: Jul 28, 2006, 02:59 PM »
Because that's what you do for love.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #271 on: Jul 28, 2006, 05:45 PM »
It is indeed!
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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Offline KillRoy1972

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #272 on: Jul 29, 2006, 10:19 AM »
These are my thoughts:

JAck did not give up on the love for Ennis, He will always love him, but he gave up trying to change Ennis to eccept his feelings.

Jack found someone else he could build his 'gay' life with, and got killed bacause of it (he divforced his wife, she found out about his gay feelings, and had him beaten up to a point he died)

Ennis knows, pushing him even deeper in living a lie (end scene with him closing the door of the 'closet' with the shirts and the brokeback mountain postcard)




Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #273 on: Jul 29, 2006, 03:40 PM »
These are my thoughts:

JAck did not give up on the love for Ennis, He will always love him, but he gave up trying to change Ennis to eccept his feelings.

Jack found someone else he could build his 'gay' life with, and got killed bacause of it (he divforced his wife, she found out about his gay feelings, and had him beaten up to a point he died)
Quote

Interesting that we agree on these two points.  I know that the second point (about Lureen being responsible for Jack's murder) is not shared by a lot of people.  Let us just say that this point is a possibility.

Ennis knows, pushing him even deeper in living a lie (end scene with him closing the door of the 'closet' with the shirts and the brokeback mountain postcard)

I don't know if I would agree with this interpretation, but it certainly is plausible.  I am aware that your interpretation would be quite unpopular with a lot of other people, but suffice to say that it is a valid interpretation -- among many possible ones.  In a way, your view has a grain of truth to it, IMO.

Offline KillRoy1972

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #274 on: Jul 29, 2006, 05:28 PM »
These are my thoughts:

Jack did not give up on the love for Ennis, He will always love him, but he gave up trying to change Ennis to accept his feelings.

Jack found someone else he could build his 'gay' life with, and got killed bacause of it (he divforced his wife, she found out about his gay feelings, and had him beaten up to a point he died)
Quote

Interesting that we agree on these two points.  I know that the second point (about Lureen being responsible for Jack's murder) is not shared by a lot of people.  Let us just say that this point is a possibility.

Ennis knows, pushing him even deeper in living a lie (end scene with him closing the door of the 'closet' with the shirts and the brokeback mountain postcard)

I don't know if I would agree with this interpretation, but it certainly is plausible.  I am aware that your interpretation would be quite unpopular with a lot of other people, but suffice to say that it is a valid interpretation -- among many possible ones.  In a way, your view has a grain of truth to it, IMO.


Well it's just the way she reacts.

"Who, who is this" Sitting down acting like she don't know him and then saying: "Jack used to mention you, your his fishing buddy and hunt buddy. I know that.." indicates she knows more about Ennis than meets the eye imo.

Then she tells the story about the tire blowing up like it is something she's been studying on to say when people ask what happened.

Then she tells about the cremation and the ashes like shes on automatic pilot, not expressing any feelings about it..

After Ennis tels her about brokeback mountain, something snaps in her. Like she already knew because Jack already told her, but she would not believe it. But now she knows, hearing it from Ennis. And here eyes are filling up with tears. She can't deny it anymore

Then Ennis says: "Thank you for your time. I really am Sorry, we were good friends" and that is the wakeup-call for Jacks wife. At that moment she knows what she did was wrong.

To soften her own pain she then tells Ennis to visit Jacks folks. She says: "get in touch with his folks, they would appreciate it if his wishes were carried out." Adding later "with the ashes I mean"


Oh well, thats my interpetainion of the scene. :)


Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #275 on: Jul 29, 2006, 06:22 PM »
Though it probably hurt him like lemon on a wound, i think Jack was fixing to go on, he didn't want to follow Ennis forever. He quit him, but he didn't quit loving him
"The bitterest tears shed over graves are for words left unsaid and deeds left undone."
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Offline Mars

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #276 on: Jul 30, 2006, 02:41 AM »
Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....
« Last Edit: Jul 30, 2006, 02:57 AM by Mars »

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #277 on: Jul 30, 2006, 08:05 AM »
Jack's death sets him, fossilizes him, if you like, as he is at forty; it could and does to some extent fossilize Ennis too, though there are signs of a change in him. But we don't, can't know the naswer to whether Jack goves up - Ennis doesn't. In practical terms Ennis is coming to the end of the child-support payments too; maybe when both the girls were off his hands he might have felt himslef freer - but again we don't and can't lknow.

The only thing i know is that love if it's the real thing never dies; it can be hidden, apparently dowmant but can spring back into lives like thaose desert plats that wait years till it rains, then suddenly flower. If their is truly a love that will never grow old, then it would rekindle at the slightest chance. so it all comes down to whether you believe that ech was the love of the other's life, and I do.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #278 on: Jul 30, 2006, 03:15 PM »
Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....

ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus



Offline Patriot1

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #279 on: Jul 30, 2006, 04:30 PM »
Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....

ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus

Would it be too much to ask that you offer the translation in the same message for us ignorant people?

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #280 on: Jul 30, 2006, 06:20 PM »

The only thing i know is that love if it's the real thing never dies; it can be hidden, apparently dowmant but can spring back into lives like thaose desert plats that wait years till it rains, then suddenly flower. If their is truly a love that will never grow old, then it would rekindle at the slightest chance. so it all comes down to whether you believe that ech was the love of the other's life, and I do.

That is so beautiful welshwitch  :\'( :\'( :\'(

Offline frances

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #281 on: Jul 30, 2006, 06:45 PM »
Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....

ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus

Would it be too much to ask that you offer the translation in the same message for us ignorant people?



I will try...

O death, where is your victory, O death, where is your sting

My candle burns at both ends / It will not last the night / But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends / It gives a lovely light (Edna St. Vincent Millay)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #282 on: Jul 30, 2006, 07:34 PM »
Thanks frances! And congrats for 4600!!
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

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The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #283 on: Jul 31, 2006, 04:22 AM »
Yes, love will never be over,but Jack understands he has to free Ennis...
Jack, in his forties, will finally keep his own life in his hands...He will fully live
his needs with another man, no more alone.
"Diis aliter visum", death will decide for him, however....

ubi est mors victoria tua ubi est mors stimulus tuus

Would it be too much to ask that you offer the translation in the same message for us ignorant people?

I will try...

O death, where is your victory, O death, where is your sting

Thank you TPE. Foreign languages are not my strong suit.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #284 on: Jul 31, 2006, 06:51 AM »
Thanks Patriot1 and frances.  I have to thank mars for his beautiful initial post. 

And as welshwitch said, true love never dies.

OOT: I join FlwrChild in congratulating frances. :)


Offline Mars

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #285 on: Jul 31, 2006, 07:58 AM »
You're welcome Tpe! :)

Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #286 on: Jul 31, 2006, 09:41 AM »
Since reading these last posts and the new topic 'Why Jack Quit Ennis' I have been thinking about this a lot. One thing that I have come to recognize is the fact that it is me personally that needs Jack not to have quit on Ennis. Jack was always a man with dreams, an optimist looking for happiness. He has had his life taken from him, his future taken from him, I don't want to have to cope with thinking that in his last weeks he had had his dream taken from him as well. It is a most depressing thought. But even though I now accept the arguments for Jack having quit on Ennis, I still can't bring myself to believe them, not all the time anyway.

Yes, Jack was thinking about it. Of that I have no doubt. His whole demeanour on that last trip screams it out to me. Sitting by the fire passing the joint to each other Jack seemed really... tired, depressed, pensive, I can't think what word to use...  WORN OUT would probably cover it. He is man IMO who was reaching the end of the road. I think that's why he says to Ennis about missing him so much he can hardly stand it, he's telling Ennis he loves him in the only way that Jack thinks he can get away with. He's trying to move the relationship on - he wants to see if it is possible.  He wants to see if it's getting too much for Ennis too. He wants a reaction.  He gets nothing.

I think that is another nail in the coffin of their relationship for Jack, but not the final one. If it were he would have had it out there and then, he'd already said more than normal, already taken a risk. He would surely have said 'I'm not sure about August, it's getting too much for me' or something like that if he had been ready. Make no mistake I do think that was the decision he was coming to, but I think he hadn't reached it yet. I think he'd decided to try and open things up this trip and see what happened.  I think he probably always had decided that after this trip he would think about his future if he got no resolution. Maybe then talk to Randall about setting up home together, I don't think he would have before seeing where the land lay with Ennis. I think if Randall had suggested it and had been pressing Jack for an answer, he still would not have committed until trying to speak to Ennis first.
What happened was, his attempt at telling Ennis he couldn't cope with their separations anymore not only fell on deaf ears but Ennis then says at the last minute that August is out too. This disappointment was the catalyst for Jack showing Ennis the truth about how he was feeling. The owning up to Mexico letting Ennis know Yes, he was gay. Telling Ennis that he couldn't make it on a couple of 'high altitude f**** twice a year, that he hardly ever got something he needed. There is no mistaking what he is telling Ennis. This ain't no fun thing - this is something Jack needs. This is love.
Not that I think for one minute that Ennis needs telling that. I think he knows that only too well already. That is his biggest problem. He might have trouble accepting they're both gay, but he certainly knows it. When you love someone you know it, you might not like it, you might try to hide it.You may well try it fight it.  But how can you not know it? If you lust after something, you can tell yourself that it is just the thing that you like, but if you lust after that thing with one specific person, how can you not know? (I know I'm on dangerous ground here, it's only my opinion based on my own experience, maybe others are different, please don't shout at me too loudly!) Even when you don't want the other person to know that you love them, you can't help yourself knowing. Even when you don't want to. All those years ago when Jack asked them to set up home together, he was showing that he loved Ennis. The way he keeps coming back after twenty years shows Ennis that he loves him, and I've no doubt that in their loving Jack shows Ennis that it is love not just lust he feels.
No IMO this is not something that shocks Ennis, he already knows it. What it is, is having to admit it, having it said, is what has an impact. Having to face it. Realizing Jack is tired of the way their relationship is. Finally admitting that so is he. He can't stand it anymore. The lying, the loneliness, the guilt, the shame, all of it.
Now at this point I think that Jack has been looking at it all from his own side. HE wants more. HE can't stand it. He was thinking of ending it for himself. Now that he sees that Ennis can't stand anymore either, you could say and I know that a lot of people do, that he decides to end it for the both of them. He loves Ennis so much that he sets him free. Despite just saying that he couldn't quit him. The effect of seeing the toll that it is taking on Ennis makes him set Ennis free not for himself, but for Ennis. He couldn't do it for himself, but for Ennis he could do anything including give up his own dreams. That is (horribly for me) VERY PLAUSIBLE.
But I can't help thinking that they've just had a cataclysmic moment. NOTHING can ever be the same again. Neither of THEM can be the same again. Their RELATIONSHIP will never be the same again. They BOTH can't stand it anymore. They BOTH know it.  I just can't see Jack quitting now. This is his chance to have that honesty and reaction that he had been looking for around the campfire. Maybe Ennis was incapable of it, but I think that he had to be given more than the few minutes they had left together to think about it.
Everything had changed for Jack because the conditions that he was thinking about ending it for had changed. Now he knew Ennis couldn't go on like that either.
If it was going to end, it was going to end soon enough, by their next meeting in fact. IMO. So why not make that meeting? We know that they arranged it because Ennis sent the postcard. So whatever he thought, he was at least going to tell Jack. Maybe he would have tried to just carry on as they were, then I think that Jack would have ended it. Maybe Ennis would have ended it in November. But at least they would have talked about it. When I think this way I can't think that Jack wouldn't have thought this too and waited to find out. Yes, the relationship as it was was tearing Ennis apart. But Jack was willing to change it so that it didn't. All Ennis had to do was give the word. He didn't have to go on being hurt, either Jack would break the relationship up (for BOTH their sakes) or change it and get what he wanted. Being the  optimist he was, I can't believe Jack would give up when things were changing, he would have waited to see what Ennis said in November.

If only we had been allowed to hear what they said to each other immediately prior to Ennis driving away. That is too big a piece of the puzzle missing. Did they say, 'lets wait till November and discuss it then' they must have said something Ennis couldn't just drive off without saying anything. Jack is still hurt, he is still tired, he is still worn out, he still thinks it may be over, he still loves Ennis enough to give up on his own dreams if he has to, but ultimately,he still doesn't know whats going to happen. Nothing is resolved. Thats my take on the expression on his face. I've said in another post why I think that what he said to his dad about living on the twist ranch with Randall didn't mean anything to me. He also told his dad for years that Ennis was coming up. He was feeling pessimistic at that moment and thinking out loud, letting his mouth run away with him. (That's our Jack! :))  But would probably think something else when he was in an optimistic mood!

Now, depending on my mood, I entertain both ideas, (which makes me sad because I like the second one more, it lets me think that Jack didn't die without his dream of finally having Ennis) and I've come to the conclusion that I will never really know. I think the true answer for me to the question 'was Jack giving up on Ennis' is ... How long is a piece of string. (Where I come from this is a common way of answering an unanswerable question, meaning basically, ....why ask me? there's too much we don't know to answer.) How I would love to ask Annie Proulx!

Sorry to go on. It's only my opinion...just thinking out loud... (I'd like to put a smiley face, but this topic makes me too sad!) :\'(
« Last Edit: Jul 31, 2006, 10:48 AM by Rosie »
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Offline stephan

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #287 on: Jul 31, 2006, 10:40 AM »
(...)

Yes, Jack was thinking about it. Of that I have no doubt. His whole demeanour on that last trip screams it out to me. Sitting by the fire passing the joint to each other Jack seemed really... tired, depressed, pensive, I can't think what word to use...  WORN OUT would probably cover it. He is man IMO who was reaching the end of the road. I think that's why he says to Ennis about missing him so much he can hardly stand it, he's telling Ennis he loves him in the only way that Jack thinks he can get away with.(...)

Thank you for these thoughts, Rosie. I hadn't thought about "worn out" and it seems very plausible. It happens in our lives ! Waiting and hoping does wear you out. It can wear out love too.  :\'(

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #288 on: Jul 31, 2006, 11:03 AM »


Rosie, if it is of any comfort to you, I think their love never died.

That Jack quit Ennis did not mean that he had stopped loving him.

Have you lost something really precious?  I have.  Would you not agree with me that you love it all the more because it is gone?

There is nothing more profound than a love rooted in renunciation and loss.  This was Jack's gift to Ennis, in a way.  And in the end, Ennis must have known that his love for Jack will also never die.


Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #289 on: Jul 31, 2006, 11:33 AM »
Rosie, that was beautifully put and so well thought out! I too can't make myself believe that Jack gave up on Ennis. And for many of the reasons that you listed. [I also don't think Mr. Twist's comments prove anything conclusively.] Thank you for sharing your opinions with us! ^f^
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #290 on: Jul 31, 2006, 02:46 PM »
"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick"; i think Jack was sick at heart by the end, and probably to some degree from the divorce scene onwards. However, that doesn't mean that he didn't still hope. I have to say that i sometimes think Ennis's hopes are quite differnt; in the scene where they talk about pursuing women, he smiles as though he's just enjoying a joke with an old friend. I wonder if he doesn't hope that the sexual aspect of the realtionship will die the death - Jack senses this too, in the  "couple of high-altitude f**ks" speech - and wants that part of the thing to give way to a simple friendship which wouldn;t tear him apart.

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #291 on: Jul 31, 2006, 03:55 PM »
"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick";   i think Jack was sick at heart by the end, and probably to some degree from the divorce scene onwards. However, that doesn't mean that he didn't still hope. I have to say that i sometimes think Ennis's hopes are quite differnt; in the scene where they talk about pursuing women, he smiles as though he's just enjoying a joke with an old friend. I wonder if he doesn't hope that the sexual aspect of the realtionship will die the death - Jack senses this too, in the  "couple of high-altitude f**ks" speech - and wants that part of the thing to give way to a simple friendship which wouldn;t tear him apart.

welchwitch, beautiful, that line describes so eloquently what happens to Jack in this relationship, thank you!  Certainly from the divorce scene on, maybe even from the point that Ennis rejects Jack's dream of a life together that first time, during that first reunion.  So very sad ...

Don't know if I can see either of them ending their physical relationship and being content to simply be friends, though ....  :-\\  Although that is certainly a valid premise, given Ennis's bone deep conflict with is nature ...  Hadn't ever thought about that before!
 
I think, though, in the end it would have been just too painful for them to see each other if that physical connection that has always been between them was broken.   If you believe (as I know I do) that this is love - irreplaceable, once-in-a-lifetime, earthy love - and not a deep friendship that got mixed up in sex, then as long as they still love each other (and I believe that they did, regardless of their unhappiness at the end) platonic  friendship doesn't seem likely.

They had been lovers for 20 years, been through the deepest kind of emotional struggles, lived with the regrets and the frustrations along with the hope deferred;  how do you put that aside to just be friends??   Ennis would have been deluding himself (not a big stretch I guess) if he honestly believed he could give up sleeping with Jack and stay friends, imo. 

I don't believe Jack gave up on Ennis, but for agruments sake, I would say that IF Jack left Ennis, he would have left him all the way.   And if  Ennis had wanted to just be friends, to give up on their physical relationship because dealing with his sexuality was too painful, I don't think Jack would have gone for that, either.  He'd always wanted more from Ennis, certainly knew what he wanted from a relationship with a man ... can't see him settling for less than he'd had even over those hard years, not from someone he was still in love with ... 

maybe I'm talkng through my hat, what do I know from men ... ?    ::)  Interesting idea, ww .. ^f^
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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #292 on: Jul 31, 2006, 04:08 PM »
MissRed, I think you got it exactly right! And welshwitch, you're certainly right about Jack being sick at heart (though I don't believe he gave up on Ennis - I just can't :(). And Lord knows Ennis was good at hiding from himself. But as much as he might want to convince himself they could just be friends, he'd take one look each time they met and that would be that. Poor boys... :\'(
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Offline monicita

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #293 on: Aug 01, 2006, 04:22 AM »
lamusica,

I want to believe that too. He would have come back, if there had been a signal from Ennis, a clear signal of love. But was Ennis capable of giving that? And wasn't it so much braver of Jack to say (my interpretation) "as long as we can't be together and respect ourselves and each other, I want to think of the love we had as something wonderful, and I want to preserve what was wonderful about it (vide the flashback scene), but I no longer want to cause myself and him such unending pain." Oh, I ache for them both, darling Jack, darling Ennis  %)

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Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #294 on: Aug 01, 2006, 05:23 AM »
Blimey. Rosie, welshwitch, MissRed and FlwrChild - those are some serious posts. You've really got me thinking again.

For what it's worth, I still can't believe that Jack would actually have quit Ennis. Certainly, he wanted to get away from the pain of watching Ennis drive away time after time but I can't stop thinking that, having laid it all on the line during this argument, he would have come back in November hoping that the fact that their feelings were out in the open (between themselves) would have made a difference. He had spent 20 years hoping without ever telling Ennis exactly how he felt, surely he would have wanted to know whether this knowledge had changed Ennis' way of thinking.
 
I also think that Ennis' "I can't stand this anymore Jack" could be taken more than one way - sure, it could mean that he couldn't stand the relationship anymore, but it could also mean that he couldn't stand the pain of leaving Jack any more than Jack could.

On the subject of Ennis wanting to end their physical relationship and be just friends - I don't believe he could have done that, or even that he would have wanted to, despite it being the thing that caused the most problems for them (because of Ennis' hang-ups and because of society) Although friendship came first, the sexual attraction was so strong that neither could deny it or stop it, even when things weren't as idyllic as that first summer on Brokeback - there's a passage in the short story that has them both grumbling about their kids on a later not-fishing trip but undoing buttons at the same time. Of course, their friendship was comfortable and easy - making it appear that it would have been easier if that's all it was - but the brilliant charge was still there, right to the end, and they both knew it.

I think I need to go and read a "happy-ending" fanfic now to cheer myself up :\'(
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #295 on: Aug 01, 2006, 06:56 AM »
FlwrChld, NoReins ....     <^(    <^(


For what it's worth, I still can't believe that Jack would actually have quit Ennis. Certainly, he wanted to get away from the pain of watching Ennis drive away time after time but I can't stop thinking that, having laid it all on the line during this argument, he would have come back in November hoping that the fact that their feelings were out in the open (between themselves) would have made a difference. He had spent 20 years hoping without ever telling Ennis exactly how he felt, surely he would have wanted to know whether this knowledge had changed Ennis' way of thinking.
 
I also think that Ennis' "I can't stand this anymore Jack" could be taken more than one way - sure, it could mean that he couldn't stand the relationship anymore, but it could also mean that he couldn't stand the pain of leaving Jack any more than Jack could.

On the subject of Ennis wanting to end their physical relationship and be just friends - I don't believe he could have done that, or even that he would have wanted to, despite it being the thing that caused the most problems for them (because of Ennis' hang-ups and because of society) Although friendship came first, the sexual attraction was so strong that neither could deny it or stop it, even when things weren't as idyllic as that first summer on Brokeback - there's a passage in the short story that has them both grumbling about their kids on a later not-fishing trip but undoing buttons at the same time. Of course, their friendship was comfortable and easy - making it appear that it would have been easier if that's all it was - but the brilliant charge was still there, right to the end, and they both knew it.
I think I need to go and read a "happy-ending" fanfic now to cheer myself up :\'(

Beautifully said, NoReins -   And so sad because the way you've laid it out the potential for their happy-ending was there, had Jack lived.    :\'(


(yes, there will be happy-ending fanfic reading in my near future, too, after this dose of "reality"  :(  )
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #296 on: Aug 01, 2006, 07:03 AM »
lamusica,

I want to believe that too. He would have come back, if there had been a signal from Ennis, a clear signal of love. But was Ennis capable of giving that? And wasn't it so much braver of Jack to say (my interpretation) "as long as we can't be together and respect ourselves and each other, I want to think of the love we had as something wonderful, and I want to preserve what was wonderful about it (vide the flashback scene), but I no longer want to cause myself and him such unending pain." Oh, I ache for them both, darling Jack, darling Ennis  %)

monicita

Monicita, even though most of us cling to the belief that Jack and Ennis would never have been able to give each other up, what you've said here is the one counter-point that would make them quitting each other a possibility, while still being a sign of their love for each other.  This seems to me to be the reason why we're even debating the question in the first place, because sometimes being strong can mean letting go.    ^f^     I can completely see your point, even if I'm part of the "Jack would never quit; Ennis would always stand it" team.   ;)
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline FlwrChild

  • Jack + Ennis
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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #297 on: Aug 01, 2006, 07:04 AM »
Yep, the fan-fic is never far away for me. I wonder how I would stand it without? :-\\
Sorry OT.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline MississaugaRed

  • Jack + Ennis
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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #298 on: Aug 01, 2006, 07:17 AM »
OT, too, FlwrChld, but ... Actually, I worry that my bf will soon give up on me ... if I don't put down the FF and start talking to him in the evenings!   ;D

Maybe not so OT, because I've found that reading some of the "what-if" scenarios from the FF gives me new perspectives on where that last fight might have lead.  As NoReins so beautifully put it earlier, with things out in the open a bit more, maybe there was a chance to heal and move forward.  I think at the end they had (as the ss says) "torqued" things back enough to where they had been that November would have happened for them.  And so much more might have followed ...  :(


"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline FlwrChild

  • Jack + Ennis
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  • Posts: 18550
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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #299 on: Aug 01, 2006, 07:22 AM »
OT, too, FlwrChld, but ... Actually, I worry that my bf will soon give up on me ... if I don't put down the FF and start talking to him in the evenings!   ;D

Maybe not so OT, because I've found that reading some of the "what-if" scenarios from the FF gives me new perspectives on where that last fight might have lead.  As NoReins so beautifully put it earlier, with things out in the open a bit more, maybe there was a chance to heal and move forward.  I think at the end they had (as the ss says) "torqued" things back enough to where they had been that November would have happened for them.  And so much more might have followed ...  :(




And we'll never know where it might have gone... and neither wil poor Ennis... :-\\
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)