Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers

[LuvJackNasty]

When Ennis drives away that last time, Jack knows that this is his life...always waiting for those precious moments with Ennis.

You're killing me :'( :'(

Me too!  :'(

[NoReins]

Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.

But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.

Totally agree, edgar.

[tpe]

Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.

But he still has to watch. He cant' take his eyes off the disappearing figure.

In the final shot of Jack in this scene, you do see the fire in his eyes extinguished.  The fire is dead -- but the eyes still see.

[MississaugaRed]

Wow, what a wonderful thread!  One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone.   The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved?  There was no November ... 

Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.

But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.

Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice".  The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls.   :'(

From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view.  So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy!  :-\  I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!

Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack.  Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it.  (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)

But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take.  Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all.  With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion.  Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life.  He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)

Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on.  He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy.  A moth to a flame.  And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.

Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read.  My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities.  Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??

Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM.  Which had better be soon or I may burst! 

[NoReins]

Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to self-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on.  He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy.  A moth to a flame.  And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.

MissRed - that's beautiful. Sometimes I think there are things that really are worth dying for (even if it's only metaphorically) - and I believe that Jack felt that about his love for Ennis. Even if it was going to continue to be a "once or twice a year" thing, it would still be the best thing in his life.

[tpe]

Wow, what a wonderful thread!  One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone.   The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved?  There was no November ... 

Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.

But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.

Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice".  The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls.   :'(

From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view.  So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy!  :-\  I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!

Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack.  Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it.  (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)

But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take.  Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all.  With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion.  Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life.  He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)

Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to self-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on.  He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy.  A moth to a flame.  And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.

Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read.  My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities.  Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??

Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM.  Which had better be soon or I may burst! 

I agree with NoReins.  A wonderful post.

Indeed, I think deep down, I am a fatalist.  In a sense, I always think of life in the context of dying -- love is the threshold of parting.

Me, me, and none but me, dart home, O gentle Death,
And quickly, for I draw too long this idle breath:
O how I long till I may fly to heav’n above,
Unto my faithful and beloved turtle dove.

Like to the silver swan, before my death I sing:
And yet alive my fatal knell I help to ring.
Still I desire from earth and earthly joys to fly,
He never happy liv’d that cannot love to die.


(John Dowland)

[MississaugaRed]

[Sometimes I think there are things that really are worth dying for (even if it's only metaphorically) - and I believe that Jack felt that about his love for Ennis. Even if it was going to continue to be a "once or twice a year" thing, it would still be the best thing in his life.

So true, NoReins, there are things worth dying for.  I just wish sometimes that Ennis would have believed the opposite, that some things were worth living for, and that the risk of dying had been one he was able to take.  Maybe, if there had been a November ... "sigh"

Like to the silver swan, before my death I sing:
And yet alive my fatal knell I help to ring.
Still I desire from earth and earthly joys to fly,
He never happy liv’d that cannot love to die.


(John Dowland)

Seriously - goosebumps on reading that last line, tpe - you alway find just the right quotes to hit us in the heart. Thank you!

OT (but not really?) was watching an episode of Invasion last week, which you would think would be as far away as you can get from BBM but ... there was a young school teacher, very ill,  who was teaching a class of young children about "Character"; She teaches them that two things shape our characters .. how we LIVE, and how we DIE.  Of course, I immediately tune out the show and start applying this to BBM, Jack and Ennis's lives, how Jack died for trying to live, how Ennis must find the courage to live until his own ending, without Jack in the world.  All roads lead to Brokeback for me these days, it seems ...

Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??

Sorry if OT, just seemed to fit with our discussion of Jack's choices and death and life ...   

[tpe]

MississaugaRed, not so OOT here.

Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??

When I view the murder scene in BBM, I now always overlay it with this meditation: what was Jack thinking about in his last moments?

When I meditate on this, I am sure that he was thinking of Ennis.  I am sure he was thinking of November.  I am sure he was thinking of their love.

I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love.  As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.

I remain stubborn in my opinion.



 

[danac]

Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.

But he still has to watch. He cant' take his eyes off the disappearing figure.

In the final shot of Jack in this scene, you do see the fire in his eyes extinguished.  The fire is dead -- but the eyes still see.

How sadly put...the fire is dead. And, so it is...but the eyes still see the only true love of his life and the only person for whom he would give up another 20 years.
I am, like you, resolute that Jack loved Ennis until the last breath escaped him and would never have been happy supplanting Ennis with any available substitute. JMO.

[tpe]

How sadly put...the fire is dead. And, so it is...but the eyes still see the only true love of his life and the only person for whom he would give up another 20 years.
I am, like you, resolute that Jack loved Ennis until the last breath escaped him and would never have been happy supplanting Ennis with any available substitute. JMO.

In a deep way, Death was most kind to both of them.  It was meant to be that there would be no other.

There is a quiet grace to the death of Hope in the arms of Love.

[danac]

How sadly put...the fire is dead. And, so it is...but the eyes still see the only true love of his life and the only person for whom he would give up another 20 years.
I am, like you, resolute that Jack loved Ennis until the last breath escaped him and would never have been happy supplanting Ennis with any available substitute. JMO.

In a deep way, Death was most kind to both of them.  It was meant to be that there would be no other.

There is a quiet grace to the death of Hope in the arms of Love.

/quote]

Omigod, tpe, I actually have a real life to live today ( not that the people in my life are nearly as real or as cherished as Jack and Ennis!)...and now, my mascara is running down my cheeks! :'(
I'll be late...and it's all your fault!

[MississaugaRed]

I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love.  As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.

I remain stubborn in my opinion.

One should be stubborn in the belief of their love of one another, I completely agree.  It was a once in a lifetime love for them both.

The only spectulation can be on what context they may have choosen to honour that love as they moved on through life.
The fact of their love is beyond question, IMO ... (and yours, obviously )

In a deep way, Death was most kind to both of them.  It was meant to be that there would be no other.

There is a quiet grace to the death of Hope in the arms of Love.

danac will have to loan me her mascara ... your fault again, tpe .. what beautiful words!  These should be used at the close of BBM to give comfort to the grieving ...  :'(

[FlwrChild]

Wow, what a wonderful thread!  One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone.   The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved?  There was no November ... 

Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.

But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.

Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice".  The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls.   :'(

From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view.  So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy!  :-\  I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!

Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack.  Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it.  (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)

But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take.  Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all.  With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion.  Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life.  He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)

Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on.  He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy.  A moth to a flame.  And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.

Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read.  My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities.  Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??

Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM.  Which had better be soon or I may burst! 

I agree there have been so many compelling points on both sides! The pragmatic section of your post strikes a particular chord with me because I am going through this very situation in my own life right now (to give up on your love or not). I have been where Jack is and I have accepted that choosing me might have to mean walking away. But you'll notice from my previious posts that I steadfastly believe Jack would NOT have given up on Ennis! And I don't think that it was ice in his eyes as Ennis drove away. What I saw was more of a deadening. I think something died in him. But I also believe I saw something else still alive in there. He was in pain. And he hurt because he still loved Ennis. The bond was not broken - the cord was not cut. How long that would last with their future meetings, I don't know. But I believe he would have been there in November. And since I have just seen a small glimmer of hope for my own situation, I'm glad that I kept my faith in Jack and Ennis and I will continue to cling to the belief that theirs was a forever love! Sorry for being so sloppy! I don't know if that was even remotely articulate.

[stephan]

So many lovely thoughts have been shared already... Thank you, everyone.
Presuming the question is still about "giving up" and since I hold steadfastly / stubbornly to the idea that the answer is "no way", one of the questions that comes up in consequence could be something like : when do you know that "going to Mexico" isn't the same as giving up ? Or, in this case, going over to a neighbouring ranch in Texas ?

I would say that one can give up a part of one's dreams for the future, dreams that include someone else, without giving up on that someone else. It would seem that Jack finally gave up on the idea of bringing Ennis to his parents' ranch. Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.

[NoReins]

Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.

Interesting you should say that stephan - that's pretty much what I was thinking during my latest viewing. It may well have been that Jack made one throwaway remark about "another fella", after talking about Ennis for the best part of 20 years, and Mr Twist used that because he knew it would hurt Ennis more than anything else.

[FlwrChild]

Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.

Interesting you should say that stephan - that's pretty much what I was thinking during my latest viewing. It may well have been that Jack made one throwaway remark about "another fella", after talking about Ennis for the best part of 20 years, and Mr Twist used that because he knew it would hurt Ennis more than anything else.

I like this theory. I always like the ones that help me keep their love - I don't know -  somehow sacred I guess. I'll have to pop it in tonight and look at it for myself. Oh darn!

[stephan]

Interesting you should say that stephan - that's pretty much what I was thinking during my latest viewing. It may well have been that Jack made one throwaway remark about "another fella", after talking about Ennis for the best part of 20 years, and Mr Twist used that because he knew it would hurt Ennis more than anything else.

It happens too often enough in real life, why not in the cinema ?   

[karen1129]

Wow, what a wonderful thread!  One that seems to have struck a cord of strong opinion in everyone.   The possibilities taunt us, don't they, because things were left unresolved?  There was no November ... 

Those blue eyes--eyes which express perfect contentment and longing in the flashback to the dozy embrace--those same blue eyes turn to ice as Jack watches Ennis drive away, for what ends up being the last time.

But he still has to watch. He can't take his eyes off the disappearing figure.

Edgar, I love how you say his eyes "turn to ice".  The contrasts between those two shots of Jack perfectly sums up the toll the time bridging those two points in their lives has taken on their souls.   :'(

From all these excellent posts I can almost see the perceptions change depending on whether someone looks on the situation from a romantic, pragmatic or fatalistic point of view.  So excuse me if I seem incredibly wishy-washy!  :-  I really go back and forth on this one, your beautiful words have expressed each potential sentiment and each time I go where you lead!

Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack.  Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it.  (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)

But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take.  Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all.  With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion.  Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life.  He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)

Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on.  He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy.  A moth to a flame.  And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.

Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read.  My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities.  Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??

Regardless, your takes on this has given me new insights that will no doubt impact my next viewing of BBM.  Which had better be soon or I may burst! 

I love you post.  I have always been confliced about whether Jack gave up or not.  I do believe he would have been back in
November had he not been killed.  As far as the future though?  I don't know.  I guess there really was no future because
poor Ennis did not want to be queer .  His fears and confusion ran so deep.  THey both loved each other, no doubt,
but love does not conquer all.  I just don't see Ennis changing.  When a person has to give up their hopes and dreams,
the realization sets in that you are not really being fulfilled in that relationship.  Bitterness sets in.  The longing is still
there, but you really can't fix other people.  Is settling the thing to do?  I don't know.
It is just all so damn tragic.

[LuvJackNasty]

Romantically, I chose to believe that Jack could never quit Ennis; their lives were so defined by the love they had for each other, to cut himself off from Ennis would have been a death blow for Jack.  Even if he lived another 40 years, he would have been the walking dead, in the world but not of it.  (which is sometimes the image I have of Ennis at the end of BBM, BTW, when Jack truly is gone)

But pragmatically - there is only so much pain and heartbreak a person can take.  Even in service of one who is your soulmate. Love may transcend but it can't always conquer all.  With age can come the realization that wishing doesn't make it so, and that hope has become self-delusion.  Self-respect may become an issue; Jack has gained much inner strength through surviving their difficult relationship and as much as he will always and forever love Ennis, he may have needed to pull away to salvage something of the rest of his life.  He had needs and dreams he finally admitted out loud would never be met by Ennis ("you got a better idea?", "I did, once".)

Fatalistically - In spite of the pragmatic, defensive reasons Jack may have had to safe-guard his heart by not seeing Ennis anymore, the power of his romantic love may have made it impossible for him to give up, even if he had every intention of moving on.  He would have been drawn back to Ennis time and time again, grabbing whatever meager bit of joy he could even if it's tinged with melancholy.  A moth to a flame.  And like the moth, he would probably count the fulfillment of his desire worth the cost.

Just my (conflicting) feeling, which seem to change depending on my mood while watching, or what post here I recently read.  My thoughts on this I guess are fluid, allowing for many possibilities.  Maybe in this instance the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are abstract??

 The pragmatic section of your post strikes a particular chord with me because I am going through this very situation in my own life right now (to give up on your love or not). I have been where Jack is and I have accepted that choosing me might have to mean walking away. And I don't think that it was ice in his eyes as Ennis drove away. What I saw was more of a deadening. I think something died in him. But I also believe I saw something else still alive in there. He was in pain. And he hurt because he still loved Ennis. The bond was not broken - the cord was not cut. How long that would last with their future meetings, I don't know. But I believe he would have been there in November.

Miss-Red

Excellent post. I view the scene romantically with maybe a tiny bit of fatalism.  I feel it (react to it) more pragmatically because of my own life situation- that really hit me when I was reading your post. I think that is why this scene impacts me so hard and sends me off into a sobbing fit.

There is no "right" or "wrong"- I think we bring our own experiences and feelings into this scene/movie and we view/feel this scene based upon that.

Flwrchild

I'm right there with you situation wise.
We don't know what the future would have held for them. Whether any future meetings would have changed anything one way or the other.
But I hold to my belief that Jack would have been there in November.

[LuvJackNasty]

MississaugaRed, not so OOT here.

Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??

When I view the murder scene in BBM, I now always overlay it with this meditation: what was Jack thinking about in his last moments?

When I meditate on this, I am sure that he was thinking of Ennis.  I am sure he was thinking of November.  I am sure he was thinking of their love.

I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love.  As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.

I remain stubborn in my opinion.



 

TPE,

I can barely view Jack's murder, let alone think of it. If I let myself think too much about it I'd probably need to be sedated. But yes I do believe that those thoughts in his final moments were of Ennis and of their love. I can't go any deeper because I will start to lose it- no matter how many times I have seen the movie I still can't come to terms with Jack's fate.  :'(

[karen1129]

MississaugaRed, not so OOT here.

Would Jack's character, as it was defined up until his death, have compelled him to continue his relationship with Ennis, or break it off??

When I view the murder scene in BBM, I now always overlay it with this meditation: what was Jack thinking about in his last moments?

When I meditate on this, I am sure that he was thinking of Ennis.  I am sure he was thinking of November.  I am sure he was thinking of their love.

I know that in his heart, Jack did not give up that love.  As in life, he could not possibly think of no other love in extremis.

I remain stubborn in my opinion.



 

TPE,

I can barely view Jack's murder, let alone think of it. If I let myself think too much about it I'd probably need to be sedated. But yes I do believe that those thoughts in his final moments were of Ennis and of their love. I can't go any deeper because I will start to lose it- no matter how many times I have seen the movie I still can't come to terms with Jack's fate.  :'(

Me neither 

[Patriot1]

I can barely view Jack's murder, let alone think of it. If I let myself think too much about it I'd probably need to be sedated. But yes I do believe that those thoughts in his final moments were of Ennis and of their love. I can't go any deeper because I will start to lose it- no matter how many times I have seen the movie I still can't come to terms with Jack's fate.  :'(

I have seen the movie well over 100 times and have only seen Jack's murder once.  I got sick to my stomach and now either close my eyes or cover them everytime.  Jack is too real to me for me to watch his death.

[tpe]

THAT scene is so painful to even think about. 

As the cliche goes, you see your entire life pass before your eyes in your last moments...

With Jack, I would like to think that the very last thing he 'saw' was that first summer on BBM.  With this thought, Jack must have been beyond any mortal pain.

 

[LuvJackNasty]

THAT scene is so painful to even think about. 

As the cliche goes, you see your entire life pass before your eyes in your last moments...

With Jack, I would like to think that the very last thing he 'saw' was that first summer on BBM.  With this thought, Jack must have been beyond any mortal pain.

 

That is a beautiful thought! Here I go again!  :'(

[edgar]

Okay, thanks for the distinction presented between romantic, pragmatic, and fatalistic interps. (But in the end, the fatalistic interp is rather romantic anyway.)

Surely a battle was going on inside Jack between his heart and his head. He had to decide whether to keep the relationship with Ennis going, even though Ennis always pulled back, always disappointed Jack.

I think we can safely say this: that Jack's *head* decided it was time to move on. So he says, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and tries to hurt Ennis; tries in effect to break up with Ennis. To keep this idea going, he then reports to his parents that he's going to bring Randall up to the homestead.

HOWEVER, Jack's heart was of course  attatched to Ennis's wtih an unbreakable cord. So (in the short story) when Jack sees Ennis fall to his knees in what seems to be a "heart attack" or stroke, he immediately runs to him. Though he *wishes* he knew how to quit Jack, he is unable to deny the bond between them.

So, I propose, Jack's head gave up on Ennis, while his heart kept him bound to Ennis. Jack pursues the relationship with Randall as fully as he can, which gets him killed. And maybe all the cognitive dissonance he experiences by being with Randall while his heart is still with Jack is what leads to the increased drinking that Lureen reports.

So much suffering. Jack suffered for twenty years in that relationship; Ennis suffers for the rest of his life after Jack dies.

[stephan]

That is a beautiful thought! Here I go again!  :'(

Same here   :'(

[CrimsonSky]

So many lovely thoughts have been shared already... Thank you, everyone.
Presuming the question is still about "giving up" and since I hold steadfastly / stubbornly to the idea that the answer is "no way", one of the questions that comes up in consequence could be something like : when do you know that "going to Mexico" isn't the same as giving up ? Or, in this case, going over to a neighbouring ranch in Texas ?

I would say that one can give up a part of one's dreams for the future, dreams that include someone else, without giving up on that someone else. It would seem that Jack finally gave up on the idea of bringing Ennis to his parents' ranch. Personally, though, I do not credit Mr Twist with being exactly truthful ; I feel he enjoyed tormenting Ennis with his hints at Jack's changing his mind.

I agree, I felt Jack's dad was definitely twisting (sorry! :-[) the knife with that remark, I remember thinking "you cruel *******" when he said it the first time I watched it
But leading on from there, am I the only one who doesn't think Jack had any intentions whatsoever of moving there with either Ennis or Randall?
Jack never got on with his dad,and his dad wasn't exactly happy about Jack being gay, never mind setting up home with his boyfriend on his land.I can't see that being the 'sweet life' Jack was talking about, and anyway, he never said anything to Ennis about moving to his dad's place, only about them getting their own place, or Ennis moving to Texas(unless I missed something)   I think he probably taunted(for want of a better word) his dad with talk of him and Ennis running the ranch, and eventually Jack's dad said sometyhing like "you've been saying that for years, so where is this Ennis guy?" and Jack, rather than admit that Ennis wouldn't ever be with him, said that he had someone else now. Or something like that

No way will anyone ever convince me that Jack had given up on Ennis for anyone, let alone Randall (I don't know why but I just don't like him :-[), I refuse to believe Randall was, or ever could be, more than just a **** buddy to Jack.

[monicita]

I think I already said this once, many months ago, on this thread: What about Jack's not being able to stand the way Ennis hurts any more? Maybe it isn't "giving up" on Ennis so much, as realizing that he doesn't want the one he loves to suffer any more. Witness their last meeting: Pure suffering. Sometimes you just have to let somebody go, especially if you love them (and Ennis even says it "Why don't you"). Well, Jack did: In the supreme act of love and, yes, self-respect: He let Énnis go, quite the opposite of giving up on him.

To me, it is astonishing, how much need for them to be together for ever I feel in most of the posts on this thread: For them to be together forever, even if it makes them lose their selfrespect, even if it means suffering forever. Forgive me, but in a way, that seems very cruel. Why shouldn't Jack try for something in his life that might satisfy him? Even if he fails, at least he would have tried! With Lureen, there was never any chance. And for Ennis there is not much of a chance either, seeing that he can't cope with being gay. But Jack at least had a chance to try and make it work. I would have liked him to try, then maybe come back to Ennis anyway. Or, even better: have Ennis come back to him. But for that kind of thing, you have to really let go.

Hey, this is only my opinion, I do respect the "romantic" viewpoint, sometimes can't help seeing it that way myself.

monicita

[tpe]

I think I already said this once, many months ago, on this thread: What about Jack's not being able to stand the way Ennis hurts any more? Maybe it isn't "giving up" on Ennis so much, as realizing that he doesn't want the one he loves to suffer any more. Witness their last meeting: Pure suffering. Sometimes you just have to let somebody go, especially if you love them (and Ennis even says it "Why don't you"). Well, Jack did: In the supreme act of love and, yes, self-respect: He let Énnis go, quite the opposite of giving up on him.

To me, it is astonishing, how much need for them to be together for ever I feel in most of the posts on this thread: For them to be together forever, even if it makes them lose their selfrespect, even if it means suffering forever. Forgive me, but in a way, that seems very cruel. Why shouldn't Jack try for something in his life that might satisfy him? Even if he fails, at least he would have tried! With Lureen, there was never any chance. And for Ennis there is not much of a chance either, seeing that he can't cope with being gay. But Jack at least had a chance to try and make it work. I would have liked him to try, then maybe come back to Ennis anyway. Or, even better: have Ennis come back to him. But for that kind of thing, you have to really let go.

Hey, this is only my opinion, I do respect the "romantic" viewpoint, sometimes can't help seeing it that way myself.

monicita

Thanks monicita.  I do agree with the above interpretation.

[lamusica]

While I admit to being a true romantic, I do think you have a good point, monicita.
     I do NOT think Jack ever really gave up on Ennis.  He saw his hurting, but what about Jack? He was hurting, too.  Everytime he made an overture to Ennis, he was rejected.  Time after time,after time this happened.  Jack just kept on coming back for more.
    After their last scene together, Jack may have hyped up the action with Randall, but, I still think he would have dropped everything in his life at just one word from Ennis that Ennis wanted him.  He would have redlined it to anywhere on earth to be with Ennis, even after all the hurt.