Author Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers  (Read 309037 times)

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #360 on: Aug 10, 2006, 10:14 AM »
I like the ambivalence.  :)  And it wouldn't work for a lot of mediocre films, but for a masterpiece, it gives us depths to explore.

I guess the question of whether or not Jack was ready to quit on Ennis is almost as big (maybe bigger) a question in everyone's minds as was the question of the manner of Jack's death.  Tire explosion or tire iron?  All the ambiguous moments in BBM allows us to fashion the story somewhat to our own satisfactions and beliefs.  It's why we love it!   <^(
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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #361 on: Aug 10, 2006, 10:21 AM »
I like the ambivalence.  :)  And it wouldn't work for a lot of mediocre films, but for a masterpiece, it gives us depths to explore.

I guess the question of whether or not Jack was ready to quit on Ennis is almost as big (maybe bigger) a question in everyone's minds as was the question of the manner of Jack's death.  Tire explosion or tire iron?  All the ambiguous moments in BBM allows us to fashion the story somewhat to our own satisfactions and beliefs.  It's why we love it!   <^(

Yes, I am amazed of how much of the end scenes get tied together by just sheer ambiguity.  The nature of Jack's death is tied to the question of whether he gave up on Ennis or not.  The double meanings in final confrontation scene tie closely with Ennis's own ambiguity (did he withraw more into himself or did he start opening up to others?)  in the scenes after Jack's death.



Offline Patriot1

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #362 on: Aug 10, 2006, 10:27 AM »

A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.

:(
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #363 on: Aug 10, 2006, 10:43 AM »
There's wasn't a neat and tidy, predictable love, so it wouln't be convincing if it were to end neatly in some sort of cliche.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #364 on: Aug 10, 2006, 10:44 AM »

A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.

:(

I do think this is why some people hated BBM, because they thought the ending too open-ended, no?

I do remember that as a kid, I liked to be handed the ending of a movie on a silver platter.  Good that that's over.

Jack's final intentions and his end may be ambiguous.  But I don't think his love for Ennis is ever in doubt.


Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #365 on: Aug 10, 2006, 11:48 AM »


A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.

:(

I do think this is why some people hated BBM, because they thought the ending too open-ended, no?

I do remember that as a kid, I liked to be handed the ending of a movie on a silver platter.  Good that that's over.

Jack's final intentions and his end may be ambiguous.  But I don't think his love for Ennis is ever in doubt.


No......at least not for me it wasn't open-ended.  I have been hanging out at a couple of chat rooms and I have only found 3 people that liked the movie. About 90+% say the movie was too slow and unrealistic. But what do they know, all they are interested in is sex. You can not imagine the difference between this Forum and those chat rooms.

A director is a visual story teller. I don't think a director who left a story so full of ambiguities as to not be able to ascertain what the story is would ever reach the height of perfection that Ang Lee has.

No, there is no doubt as to Jack's love for Ennis.  <^(

The complaint about slowness we certainly have heard a lot about.  In a sense, I undersatand why some people are put off by this.  But I must say that I tend to like movies that many people find slow.  With Ang Lee, I do think it is a strength rather than a liability.   

As for being unrealistic, it is hard to argue with them.   If they associate realism with explicit sex, then that is their loss.

A director is a visual story teller. I don't think a director who left a story so full of ambiguities as to not be able to ascertain what the story is would ever reach the height of perfection that Ang Lee has.

I agree. 



Offline Patriot1

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #366 on: Aug 10, 2006, 12:09 PM »


A movie, so full of ambivalence that the story being told can never be ascertained. Now, there is a thought that will keep me awake at night.

:(

I do think this is why some people hated BBM, because they thought the ending too open-ended, no?

I do remember that as a kid, I liked to be handed the ending of a movie on a silver platter.  Good that that's over.

Jack's final intentions and his end may be ambiguous.  But I don't think his love for Ennis is ever in doubt.


No......at least not for me it wasn't open-ended.  I have been hanging out at a couple of chat rooms and I have only found 3 people that liked the movie. About 90+% say the movie was too slow and unrealistic. But what do they know, all they are interested in is sex. You can not imagine the difference between this Forum and those chat rooms.

A director is a visual story teller. I don't think a director who left a story so full of ambiguities as to not be able to ascertain what the story is would ever reach the height of perfection that Ang Lee has. Oh sure, movies sometimes have ambiguities in them, but I don't think this one has as many as is claimed on this forum.

Ang Lee was trying to make a general audience movie with a daring plot, two men who fall in love. I don't see as many ambiguities as I see subtleties. Subtleties designed to not offend the sensibilities of a straight audience. Ang Lee took 3 big chances in this movie. I think that he was successful.

No, there is no doubt as to Jack's love for Ennis.  <^(



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Offline Patriot1

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #367 on: Aug 10, 2006, 12:19 PM »

The complaint about slowness we certainly have heard a lot about.  In a sense, I undersatand why some people are put off by this.  But I must say that I tend to like movies that many people find slow.  With Ang Lee, I do think it is a strength rather than a liability.   


It is only my opinion, but I believe they think it is slow only because they are use to Playstation and other machines like it and these damn "action" games. Everything is now shoot em up kill em, now. Also, cell phones. What ever happened to the day when you thought of telling your friend something and had to remember it until you got home and to a telephone? Now, it is instant, hurry up, pick up the cell and tell them. Don't matter you are in church or a movie theater or wherever. I want it and want it now. Those people would definitely find BBM slow. As you said, their loss.


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Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #368 on: Aug 10, 2006, 12:25 PM »
Oh sure, movies sometimes have ambiguities in them, but I don't think this one has as many as is claimed on this forum.

Perhaps.  It depends on how much one sees and how much one doesn't see.  The story is quite compact and in part a bit laconic.  Some people feel more of a need to fill in some of the lacunae.  Others are content to take each one in stride.  Ang Lee himself probably felt the need to fill in some of this, as is attested by some of the deleted scenes.  His great gift was to pare this down and leave certain things unsaid.

Quote
No, there is no doubt as to Jack's love for Ennis.  <^(

Yes, I have no doubt about it.


Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #369 on: Aug 10, 2006, 12:39 PM »

The complaint about slowness we certainly have heard a lot about.  In a sense, I undersatand why some people are put off by this.  But I must say that I tend to like movies that many people find slow.  With Ang Lee, I do think it is a strength rather than a liability.   


It is only my opinion, but I believe they think it is slow only because they are use to Playstation and other machines like it and these damn "action" games. Everything is now shoot em up kill em, now. Also, cell phones. What ever happened to the day when you thought of telling your friend something and had to remember it until you got home and to a telephone? Now, it is instant, hurry up, pick up the cell and tell them. Don't matter you are in church or a movie theater or wherever. I want it and want it now. Those people would definitely find BBM slow. As you said, their loss.

Yes.  Not to generalize, but I do think along similar lines.  It is also reflected in the very common ideal here in the US of watching movies that don't make you think.  For many, movies are a way of escape -- something that would afford them a few hours of fun and visual delight.  Stories seem to interest them less as opposed to effects.  A pity.

Sorry.  I am already a bit OOT.

 

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #370 on: Aug 10, 2006, 12:56 PM »

Perhaps.  It depends on how much one sees and how much one doesn't see.  The story is quite compact and in part a bit laconic.  Some people feel more of a need to fill in some of the lacunae.  Others are content to take each one in stride.  Ang Lee himself probably felt the need to fill in some of this, as is attested by some of the deleted scenes.  His great gift was to pare this down and leave certain things unsaid.


I believe that. And where he left things unsaid it was because they were said in other parts of the film or were so obvious as to not need explanation.

As for deleted scenes, there are many reasons to delete a scene. Take the scene where Jack does something to expose himself to the garage mechanics. Ang Lee said he took it out because it disrupted the story and he couldn't find a place to put it where it wouldn't do that.  However, he did manage to put in the part that was the most improtant, Jack's death. (I still can't look at that scene after 200+ time)

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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #371 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:24 PM »
I agree with the points aabout this being a society where things are expected to be fast if not instant and any sort of delay is intolerable. It's rather childish - "I want it now".This sounds like OT but it's not. I remember beong appalled by an American TV ad years ago - it was for Mountain Dew and had someone stretching out, grabbiing a can and saying"Gimme a Dew." Same sort of thing.

As far as ambiguity is concerned, it's another aspect of the same thing. Children, as tpe notes, like stories with neat endings; we all do sometimes. But life is messy, vague, unsatisfactory, complicated, uncertain - that's why this film is so interesting and believable - it's like life.

Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #372 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:38 PM »
......As far as ambiguity is concerned, it's another aspect of the same thing. Children, as tpe notes, like stories with neat endings; we all do sometimes. But life is messy, vague, unsatisfactory, complicated, uncertain - that's why this film is so interesting and believable - it's like life.

That it is. Well said.  :)
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Offline jesseanne21

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #373 on: Aug 10, 2006, 01:41 PM »
......As far as ambiguity is concerned, it's another aspect of the same thing. Children, as tpe notes, like stories with neat endings; we all do sometimes. But life is messy, vague, unsatisfactory, complicated, uncertain - that's why this film is so interesting and believable - it's like life.

That it is. Well said.  :)

I agree...that's why I LOVE this movie
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Offline JT

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #374 on: Aug 10, 2006, 08:27 PM »
And this in something else I've concluded. After Jack talks to Ennis about the thing with the "foreman's wife", and then he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"- I think after that he probably thought or wanted to say "that is why I look for consolation with other men, alcohol, anything to help me stand the pain of being away from you, but at the end of the day the pain is still there".

             You dig it?  ;)

I do thjink this is true.  "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" was a cry from the heart.  It was also a sort of confession.  I did think Ennis understood, but remained speechless.



I definately agree with this.  He is confessing and almost pleading to Ennis.

Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #375 on: Aug 11, 2006, 07:01 AM »
And this in something else I've concluded. After Jack talks to Ennis about the thing with the "foreman's wife", and then he says "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"- I think after that he probably thought or wanted to say "that is why I look for consolation with other men, alcohol, anything to help me stand the pain of being away from you, but at the end of the day the pain is still there".

             You dig it?  ;)

I do thjink this is true.  "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" was a cry from the heart.  It was also a sort of confession.  I did think Ennis understood, but remained speechless.



I definately agree with this.  He is confessing and almost pleading to Ennis.

So true.

I think this was the start of Jack trying to see if the reltionship could move on.  Showing he couldn't stand it the way it was for much longer, and trying to let Ennis know that.  He was trying to say "I need you with me to feel whole, I love you", he was trying to say ''I want to be with you all the time". Without using those words. Seeing how the ground lay, if Ennis was prepared to discuss things out in the open. He wasn't. He needed to be pushed harder than that. Jack stopped pretending that what he felt didn't affect his whole life. I find this scene really hard to watch. The pain of Jack is palpable.  :\'(
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #376 on: Aug 11, 2006, 07:13 AM »
And he had, ironically, spent so long pretending that he could stand it - he turned up in conformity with Ennis's "rules" - meet a few times a year, way the hell out in the middle of nowhere - in a relationship that never moved on, and when he makes an emotional confession Ennis more or les ignores it and certainly gives no appearance of wanting to respond  by changing anything, and doesn'r seem concerned that Jack is involved, as he is, with another women. When Jack repsonds honestly to the Mexico accusation, it's as if he's mentally prepared himself for total revelation, which may be the only way to get through to ennis how much he's suffered over theyears. Of course it may also do what he's been pussyfooting around all these years, frighten Ennis off completely, but maybe he's decided to take that risk or is so angry and miserble that he doesn;t even think of it. either way this is the crisis point they've avoided every time they've met from the reunion on, even from their first parting, and it's Jack who provokes it - ennis presumably would have gone on for ever as they were. So all this shows Jack's desperation and the corrosive effect of constant rejections, uncetainties, absence and all the rest.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #377 on: Aug 11, 2006, 07:46 AM »


I did originally think that Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"  was more of an avowal of love rather than a sense of pleading.  Reading all these posts, I am moved and agree that it was Jack pleading with Ennis -- telling him in an inderect way that, for all the infidelities, it is Ennis who makes or breaks him.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #378 on: Aug 11, 2006, 08:06 AM »
It's both, isn't it, like so many other lines in this movie, carrying layers of meaning in a few words. You can read it as Jack trying to put pressure on Ennis, in the way one does when involved with someone who won't commit. "I love you," you say, intending to put them in the position of having to say, "And I love you too." Often doesn't work, as it doesn't here.

Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #379 on: Aug 11, 2006, 08:09 AM »
Ennis would have gone on forever, but Jack has just shown him that he can't. Because Jack can't stand it anymore. Jack has just told him some truths he'd rather not hear. And Ennis has realised that he can't stand it anymore either. Who's to say that Ennis is not saying he can't stand hurting Jack anymore, as much as he is saying he can't stand the lies, half life he's living etc., after months of thinking about it, and he would have had the months up until November, he might have thought that it would be less painful to him and Jack to admit the truth rather than just pack it in. Maybe he thought he'd given enough of his life over to what was expected of him, and now it was time to think of him and Jack. I know coming out to his daughters would be hard and when I doubt the happy ending it is always because of that. Having his daughters know. It's not because he can't admit to himself he loves another man, I think he's always known that, he hasn't wanted to admit it, but he's always known it.

The big difference this time I think is that before Jack has always been frightened of confronting Ennis because Ennis may end it altoghther. This time it is completely the opposite and for the first time they both know that if Ennis doesn't confront the issue it may well be JACK that ends it. That is a lot for Ennis to think about. It removes the security blanket of always having Jack having to comply to his rules. The game has changed and Ennis knows it. They both know it.
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #380 on: Aug 11, 2006, 08:18 AM »
Interesting thoughts Rosie! And I always thought Ennis seemed desperate to get things back to an even footing, as he pleaded with Jack to 'lighten up' on him and offered to try to get the cabin again. Hmm, more to think about.
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #381 on: Aug 11, 2006, 08:30 AM »
Ennis resists change and hates having to do anything other than what he's always done. He also knows Jack relies on their meetings and feels guilty about cancleling the August one. So he has to psych himself up to say he can't make it, and is afraid Jack will explode, though I don't think he figured out how violent the explosion would be. He finds out things about Jack that he's much rather not know, but Jackalso finds out things about him. They've ripped away so much of the covering of evasions and half-truths,acknowledged the presence of the elephant in the corner if you like, and they can't go back. The stunning thing is the apparent finality of Jack's words - "I did once" - and "We couid have had a good life" - past tense then pluperfect subjunctive. Ennis may not know the terms but he must get the implications. I thonk at that point at least he thought Jacj had given up on him. Later, after a long absence, evidently with no contact from Jack, he tries again, possibly hoping to start off the same pattern again, but Jack isn't there to respond, so he never knows ( and neither do we) what the reply would have been. It isn't until he finds the shirts that he gets what he thinks ( and the romantics among us believe) is the answer - that Jack may have begun to see their relationship differently, but he never stopped loving him.

Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #382 on: Aug 11, 2006, 09:10 AM »
Ennis resists change and hates having to do anything other than what he's always done. He also knows Jack relies on their meetings and feels guilty about cancleling the August one. So he has to psych himself up to say he can't make it, and is afraid Jack will explode, though I don't think he figured out how violent the explosion would be. He finds out things about Jack that he's much rather not know, but Jackalso finds out things about him. They've ripped away so much of the covering of evasions and half-truths,acknowledged the presence of the elephant in the corner if you like, and they can't go back. The stunning thing is the apparent finality of Jack's words - "I did once" - and "We couid have had a good life" - past tense then pluperfect subjunctive. Ennis may not know the terms but he must get the implications. I thonk at that point at least he thought Jacj had given up on him. Later, after a long absence, evidently with no contact from Jack, he tries again, possibly hoping to start off the same pattern again, but Jack isn't there to respond, so he never knows ( and neither do we) what the reply would have been. It isn't until he finds the shirts that he gets what he thinks ( and the romantics among us believe) is the answer - that Jack may have begun to see their relationship differently, but he never stopped loving him.

I don't know how many more posts like this I can read....it's just too sad to contemplate Jack having given up on Ennis.

I do strongly believe that there's no "thinks" about it in your last sentence though - Jack never stopped loving Ennis, even if he had decided to walk away from their difficult relationship. If he'd stopped loving, he'd have got rid of the shirts because he wouldn't have wanted a reminder...he didn't because he still needed to have at least that, still wanted to have some part of Ennis to hold.
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Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #383 on: Aug 11, 2006, 09:33 AM »
An old quote I read on this forum a while back always comes to mind when I think of those shirts. I think it was from Edgar, if it was not I apologize to whoever it was.... the quote was...


No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

 I've never forgot that one, and I don't think I ever can.  I think of it every time I see those shirts.......now we're ALL  :\'( :\'( :\'(


Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #384 on: Aug 11, 2006, 09:37 AM »
No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

He has shed enough blood.

I washes away his sins.



Offline JT

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #385 on: Aug 13, 2006, 08:05 PM »
Quote
No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears.           


This is too sad but so true.  I could imagine everytime they parted from their fishing trips, Jack would go up to Lightning Flat to hold the shirts and cry his heart out, all alone.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #386 on: Aug 13, 2006, 09:12 PM »
Quote

No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears.           


This is too sad but so true.  I could imagine everytime they parted from their fishing trips, Jack would go up to Lightning Flat to hold the shirts and cry his heart out, all alone.


Oh my word I never thought of that. How incredibly sad to think about.
:\'(
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Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #387 on: Aug 13, 2006, 10:08 PM »
Quote

No blood of Jack's on the shirts......but twenty years worth of tears.           


This is too sad but so true.  I could imagine everytime they parted from their fishing trips, Jack would go up to Lightning Flat to hold the shirts and cry his heart out, all alone.


Oh my word I never thought of that. How incredibly sad to think about.
:\'(


That is really sad, thats what I had Jack do in this story that i was writing. I knew how lonely he must have felt, its terrible that he died do 'unused' if you know what i mean
"The bitterest tears shed over graves are for words left unsaid and deeds left undone."
-Harriet Beecher Stowe.

RebelWithSadness

Offline NoReins

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #388 on: Aug 14, 2006, 04:28 AM »
This discussion about the shirts is so sad....but I totally agree that Jack would have taken them out every time he went up to Lightning Flat and held them, probably in tears. One thing though - maybe as well as making him sad because it was the only part of Ennis he could hold whenever he wanted to (when he was at his folks anyway), the shirts gave him some comfort too, because they were a constant reminder of Brokeback and what they'd shared up there. Sort of like a reassurance, whenever he had doubts about their relationship.

In addition, if you believe that Jack had some understanding of why Ennis was angry and upset at leaving Brokeback early, then the shirts would remind him of how Ennis felt about him. In the short story, at least, he knew after the reunion how Ennis had felt about their parting, so I'm sure he gained comfort from seeing the shirts and knowing that the blood on them had been shed because of the pain of parting.

I'll stop rambling now.
He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

Kim Ledger, accepting Heath's Oscar.

Offline Rosie

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Re: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers
« Reply #389 on: Aug 14, 2006, 06:39 AM »
This discussion about the shirts is so sad....but I totally agree that Jack would have taken them out every time he went up to Lightning Flat and held them, probably in tears. One thing though - maybe as well as making him sad because it was the only part of Ennis he could hold whenever he wanted to (when he was at his folks anyway), the shirts gave him some comfort too, because they were a constant reminder of Brokeback and what they'd shared up there. Sort of like a reassurance, whenever he had doubts about their relationship.

In addition, if you believe that Jack had some understanding of why Ennis was angry and upset at leaving Brokeback early, then the shirts would remind him of how Ennis felt about him. In the short story, at least, he knew after the reunion how Ennis had felt about their parting, so I'm sure he gained comfort from seeing the shirts and knowing that the blood on them had been shed because of the pain of parting.I'll stop rambling now.

Wow! That wasn't rambling.....that's an excellent point and a comforting thought. :t)  NoReins.
Danny and me, Danny and me,  Danny and me and the sea,
Bobbing out of Pleasure Bay, the islands on our lee;
Spectacle, Georges, Gallops, the sun-wash on the brine
Castle Island where Skovo danced a bear-dance in bear-time.
The Golden Boy has chosen, I know what I will be
Danny and me, seanchai, Danny and me and the sea.

A Map of the Harbor Islands JG Hayes