Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers

[tpe]

From the information blurted out by Jack's father during Ennis' visit, it would seem that Jack had finally had enough and was ready to give up on Ennis, divorce his wife and move back home with his Texas ranch neighbor.

The story/movie wisely leaves this ambiguous because Jack died before any concrete action could have been taken.  Jack could have simply stated this on his last home visit as an expression of his frustration or bitterness at that particular moment.  Then again, he could have been completely serious about it.

Because I am totally besotted with the endurance and depth of Jack's and Ennis' relationship, I find it hard to accept that Jack really was serious in his avowed intention to 'break up' with Ennis.  But objectively speaking, it could have been inevitable...

Your thoughts...

[Toadily]

I thought that at first, but note several things, Dad says it
"didn't happen" bringing the other guy up there.  And JAck
finally blurts out "I wish I knew how to quit you" he couldn't.
And also "sometimes i miss you so much I can't stand it" so in
other words he tried to fill the void but couldn't.

[tpe]

I thought that at first, but note several things, Dad says it
"didn't happen" bringing the other guy up there.  And JAck
finally blurts out "I wish I knew how to quit you" he couldn't.
And also "sometimes i miss you so much I can't stand it" so in
other words he tried to fill the void but couldn't.

I feel exactly the same way.  You said it beautifully.

[ranchgal]

In my own mind, I can't ever see jack being able to give up or quit Ennis.
I can however see him starting a relationship with someone else, and I can see him being more like Ennis, in possibly being harder to get for them to get together.  Maybe more as a petty punishment for Ennis making it difficult for them to get together towards the end.
I can see Jack making substitutions for Ennis when he had to, and I can see him actually divorcing Lureen and starting a relationship with BUT I still see him making the same excuses, and taking the same time to be with Ennis--just like he did with Lureen--I can see him wanting to and even partially trying to wean himself away from Ennis, if he thought he had found someone with commitment.......
But I can't ever see him NOT coming to Ennis when Ennis wants to see him.
He really did Not know how to Quit him, and I don't think he ever could.

[natalia]

I think that Jack was slowly getting more and more frustrated by Ennis' unavailability (emotionally and physically) and began to try and find someone else to replace him, someone more available who could cater to his needs, but ultimately realized that even if this new person was more willing to get together he just wasn't Ennis and nobody else ever could be. As much as the Jack/Ennis situation wasn't ideal it was better than being without the one he truly loved. Being in the worst situation possible with the person you love (Ennis) is better than in being the best situation without them...

If you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it

*sigh*

[*Froggy*]

Probably was on some level, like
Toadily rightly quoted ...

-- Dad says it "didn't happen" bringing the other guy up there. 

And JAck finally blurts out "I wish I knew how to quit you" he couldn't.

And also "sometimes i miss you so much I can't stand it"

...after 20 years and not so much time together!! It is hard on a relationship!...but i still think that if Ennis had said yes to his little darlin' ...20 or 25 years later, Jack would have left everything to be with his Ennis!!!

[tpe]

In my own mind, I can't ever see jack being able to give up or quit Ennis.
I can however see him starting a relationship with someone else, and I can see him being more like Ennis, in possibly being harder to get for them to get together.  Maybe more as a petty punishment for Ennis making it difficult for them to get together towards the end.
I can see Jack making substitutions for Ennis when he had to, and I can see him actually divorcing Lureen and starting a relationship with BUT I still see him making the same excuses, and taking the same time to be with Ennis--just like he did with Lureen--I can see him wanting to and even partially trying to wean himself away from Ennis, if he thought he had found someone with commitment.......
But I can't ever see him NOT coming to Ennis when Ennis wants to see him.
He really did Not know how to Quit him, and I don't think he ever could.

I can also see Jack starting to take things to another level with someone like Ennis, but knowing how Ennis felt about Jack's Mexico trips, Jack would have had to keep this other relationship hidden.  If Ennis were to find out, it would result in an unimaginably difficult and complex situation for the author in how to handle this in the story.  But I do think that the 'two skins in one' analogy would make it very difficult for the author to make Ennis and Jack break up entirely.  They are just too much into each other.  The only likely outcome for such a complication would be to bring about the death of either Ennis or Jack (or both).   In this case, we come to a resolution very similar to the story in its current form.

[tpe]

I think that Jack was slowly getting more and more frustrated by Ennis' unavailability (emotionally and physically) and began to try and find someone else to replace him, someone more available who could cater to his needs, but ultimately realized that even if this new person was more willing to get together he just wasn't Ennis and nobody else ever could be. As much as the Jack/Ennis situation wasn't ideal it was better than being without the one he truly loved. Being in the worst situation possible with the person you love (Ennis) is better than in being the best situation without them...

If you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it

*sigh*

I love the way you bring that cruel phrase of Ennis' into the above argument.  A very convincing argument, in my opinion.

[Toadily]

Much of the dialogue in the final fight scene is very enigmatical.
Which I like don't get me wrong...
For instance when Ennis says what he doens't know if he came to know
it could get Jack killed, was that foreboding?  Or was it a threat?
Also when Jack says something like "know this even if you don't know the rest" did
he mean Mexico or was this alluding to how they don't really articulate what is
going on, all the repression and the L word.

[tpe]

Much of the dialogue in the final fight scene is very enigmatical.
Which I like don't get me wrong...
For instance when Ennis says what he doens't know if he came to know
it could get Jack killed, was that foreboding?  Or was it a threat?
Also when Jack says something like "know this even if you don't know the rest" did
he mean Mexico or was this alluding to how they don't really articulate what is
going on, all the repression and the L word.

Toadily, your comments are very insightful.  In fact, like you, I also had interpreted the sentence about Jack getting killed as ambiguous.  All this only adds to the depth of the narrative, and insightful moviegoers who like to do a bit of thinking about what they see invariably get dragged deeper into the hidden possibilities/meanings of the story (as we all are at the moment!)

[sharve]

The last time that Jack and Ennis are together is the beginning of the end. Ennis makes it clear to Jack that the few stolen moments they have together on BBM is all he will ever get: he can't give him more. And then, Ennis tells him that their next meeting has to be postponed until later on in the fall, maybe sometime in November. To me, Jack's cowboy dreams with Ennis are shattered (the flashback to that first summer, Ennis riding off on horseback when actually he's driving away with a trailer full of horses, etc). Jack just watches Ennis pull off, heartbroken. He subsequently visits his parents (more likely his mother who is the only other person who ever loved him and that could give him some comfort). And the rest is really sad...

I came to the same conclusion after the second viewing of the film

[tpe]

The last time that Jack and Ennis are together is the beginning of the end. Ennis makes it clear to Jack that the few stolen moments they have together on BBM is all he will ever get: he can't give him more. And then, Ennis tells him that their next meeting has to be postponed until later on in the fall, maybe sometime in November. To me, Jack's cowboy dreams with Ennis are shattered (the flashback to that first summer, Ennis riding off on horseback when actually he's driving away with a trailer full of horses, etc). Jack just watches Ennis pull off, heartbroken. He subsequently visits his parents (more likely his mother who is the only other person who ever loved him and that could give him some comfort). And the rest is really sad...

I came to the same conclusion after the second viewing of the film

So you do think that they would pull apart (assuming Jack had lived)?  Your comment about 'the beginning of the end' echoes the words of one of the reviewers in the NY Times.  This phrase suggested (in my mind) that is was a prelude to the end one way or the other (death or no death.)  Too sad to contemplate.

[ranchgal]

Much of the dialogue in the final fight scene is very enigmatical.
Which I like don't get me wrong...
For instance when Ennis says what he doens't know if he came to know
it could get Jack killed, was that foreboding?  Or was it a threat?
Also when Jack says something like "know this even if you don't know the rest" did
he mean Mexico or was this alluding to how they don't really articulate what is
going on, all the repression and the L word.

I always felt that Ennis was definately threatening Jack at that point.   I think he was like a lot of hard headed, hot tempered men---who tend to react to threats to their relationships with violence.   The fights behind the dance hall type things.
IF Jack were going with other men, that threatened the committment that Ennis felt the two shared.  Because Ennis NEVER cheated on Jack except with his wife, who was no threat to Jack-the fact that Jack may be straying---would bring out the violence of reaction in a man like Ennis.    He grew up fighting, it is how he kept control of things.   And I do believe he did threaten Jack, and I think Jack knew it too--and he wanted Ennis to realize he needed more anyway.

[tpe]

I always felt that Ennis was definately threatening Jack at that point.   I think he was like a lot of hard headed, hot tempered men---who tend to react to threats to their relationships with violence.   The fights behind the dance hall type things.
IF Jack were going with other men, that threatened the committment that Ennis felt the two shared.  Because Ennis NEVER cheated on Jack except with his wife, who was no threat to Jack-the fact that Jack may be straying---would bring out the violence of reaction in a man like Ennis.    He grew up fighting, it is how he kept control of things.   And I do believe he did threaten Jack, and I think Jack knew it too--and he wanted Ennis to realize he needed more anyway.

Hello ranchgal.  I agree that this is most probably the primary interpretation, as this is how Jack had viewed it -- if we recall his response in both the screenplay and the original story:

Jack to Ennis: ...Measure the fu**in short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and then tell me you'll kill me for needin it and not hardly never gettin it...

But I do believe there is an element of foreboding and second meaning embedded in Ennis' 'threat'.  This multilayering of possible/probable meanings is why I think both the story and the film haunt us in so many ways that we don't always understand.

[manila_rocks]

I think the information "blurted out" my Jack's father is more indicative of his lack of character than that of historical fact.  The father seems rather untrustworthy and my thought is that he wanted to be hurtful to Ennis by implying that another man was present in Jack's life.

I fondly recall a Tagalog nursery rhyme that pretty well sums this up.  I'll share it when I have more time.

[Toadily]

I think the information "blurted out" my Jack's father is more indicative of his lack of character than that of historical fact.  The father seems rather untrustworthy and my thought is that he wanted to be hurtful to Ennis by implying that another man was present in Jack's life.

I fondly recall a Tagalog nursery rhyme that pretty well sums this up.  I'll share it when I have more time.

Actually thnk of the time line, it must have been Oct when Jack died, cause Ennis was checking in about Nov. in the card when he wrote.  And the dad said last SPRING Jack was going to bring this guy up and it didn't happen.  So I think that means it didn't happen.

[Apollonos]

Actually thnk of the time line, it must have been Oct when Jack died, cause Ennis was checking in about Nov. in the card when he wrote.  And the dad said last SPRING Jack was going to bring this guy up and it didn't happen.  So I think that means it didn't happen.

It was very sharp of you to catch that, Toadily! It's also a very comforting to know that Ennis always came first in Jack's mind. Thanks for posting

[sharve]

Actually thnk of the time line, it must have been Oct when Jack died, cause Ennis was checking in about Nov. in the card when he wrote.  And the dad said last SPRING Jack was going to bring this guy up and it didn't happen.  So I think that means it didn't happen.

It was very sharp of you to catch that, Toadily! It's also a very comforting to know that Ennis always came first in Jack's mind. Thanks for posting

I think it was a little earlier than Oct. I think that it happened not long after the last visit to his parents at Lightning Flat.

[tpe]

I think the information "blurted out" my Jack's father is more indicative of his lack of character than that of historical fact.  The father seems rather untrustworthy and my thought is that he wanted to be hurtful to Ennis by implying that another man was present in Jack's life.

I fondly recall a Tagalog nursery rhyme that pretty well sums this up.  I'll share it when I have more time.

During my last viewing of the movie, I did get the impression somehow that Jack just wanted a secondary anchor -- a sort of surrogate reference point.  Jack wanted so very much to share a life with someone else, but he knew that Spring that to force Ennis to do this would be too difficult.  I think he was resigned to the fact that he would never convince Ennis to live with him -- he probably concluded from their last meeting that THAT would have been hurtful to Ennis -- hurtful to keep on pushing Ennis and accusing him of not wanting a shared life.  Thus, he probably was trying to have things both ways: continue the relationship on Ennis' terms, but start building a shared life with someone else.

It is important to note that in the screenplay, Ennis is explicitly referred to as Jack's 'OTHER HALF' in the scene when he watches Ennis drive away during what was to be their last meeting.  It is clear that in the minds of the screenplay writers, Ennis and Jack were two halves of one being, with or without the trappings of a shared life!

[borger1582]

tpe, I have argued your point often on the IMDB theads.  I think Jack either would have tried to have it both ways (no pun intended) with his ranch neighbor and still seeing Ennis.  This also could be a tool Jack was using to try to provoke Ennis to enough jealousy to force Ennis' hand.  I also am open to the suggestion that Jack mentions the "ranch neighbor" to his folks because he is temporarily bitter at that moment after the last meeting/confrontation.

And I still hold to this position for "story Jack" and "story Ennis."

However -

Other posters on the IMDB threads got me, on my 4th viewing of the film, to take a good look at the expression on "film Jack's" face immediately after the flashback scene, where we cut to the present day and see Jack's face watching his "other half" drive away.

I have to admit that Jake G's look on Jack's face is one mixed of the following: anger, sadness, resignation AND determination.

That brought me to the idea that perhaps "film Jack" was indeed preparing to find a way to "quit" Ennis.

Not that I like it.  Not that I think that would have been "appropriate" behavior for "film Jack."  But I now have to admit the possibility.

[tpe]

tpe, I have argued your point often on the IMDB theads.  I think Jack either would have tried to have it both ways (no pun intended) with his ranch neighbor and still seeing Ennis.  This also could be a tool Jack was using to try to provoke Ennis to enough jealousy to force Ennis' hand.  I also am open to the suggestion that Jack mentions the "ranch neighbor" to his folks because he is temporarily bitter at that moment after the last meeting/confrontation.

And I still hold to this position for "story Jack" and "story Ennis."

However -

Other posters on the IMDB threads got me, on my 4th viewing of the film, to take a good look at the expression on "film Jack's" face immediately after the flashback scene, where we cut to the present day and see Jack's face watching his "other half" drive away.

I have to admit that Jake G's look on Jack's face is one mixed of the following: anger, sadness, resignation AND determination.

That brought me to the idea that perhaps "film Jack" was indeed preparing to find a way to "quit" Ennis.

Not that I like it.  Not that I think that would have been "appropriate" behavior for "film Jack."  But I now have to admit the possibility.

borger1582,  I do agree that Jack's final shot can indeed be interpreted as a look of determination.

However, I am sure you will agree with me that one statement in proximity to that scene makes it difficult to envision a final break: I wish I knew how to quit you.

The statement shows that Jack did not know how it was possible for him to live wthout some connection with Ennis  -- tenuous as that connection may be.

That Spring, at his parents' house, he probably wrestled with the possibility of how he could quit Ennis.  But the proximity of his parents' town to Riverton (where Ennis resided) would certainly NOT have isolated Jack if he did want to get over his relationship with Ennis.  Settling in Texas would have been a more effective strategy!

Hence, like you, I also suspect that this could possibly be interpreted as a way of making Ennis jealous -- enough to draw him into a commitment if he did so love Jack.  Or then again, would this strategy backfire (think about Ennis' threat to Jack)?

This is speculation.  But the above arguments imply that Jack was probably not 'over' with his 'other half.'

[tpe]

I cannot help summarizing my above argument of the endurance of Jack's love for Ennis with a poem by the Greek poet Cavafy.  In it, the protagonist, even in the midst of trying to forget a lover who has left him, cannot forget that love.  In some sense, I think of Jack along similar lines.


In the Tavernas

I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I didn't want to stay
in Alexandria. Tamides left me;
he went off with the Prefect's son to earn himself
a villa on the Nile, a mansion in the city.
It wouldn't have been decent for me to stay in Alexandria.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I live a vile life, devoted to cheap debauchery.
The one thing that saves me,
like durable beauty, like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh, is this: Tamides,
most exquisite of young men, was mine for two years,
mine completely and not for a house or a villa on the Nile.


Constantine P. Cavafy

[jimnick]

Hopeless romantic that I am.

Jack reamined so in love with Ennis just as he was from the beginning until the day he died.  And, Ennis will be in love with Jack until he dies.

Jack + Ennis 4-ever

Carly Simon said, " ... suffering was the only thing that made me feel I was alive..."

Joan Jett said,  " ... love and pain can be one and the same..."

Kate Hepburn said,  "... how can I stop when it's what I live for?"

Jim says  Jack loves Ennis forever and ever...

[borger1582]

tpe, your statements:

However, I am sure you will agree with me that one statement in proximity to that scene makes it difficult to envision as final break: I wish I knew how to quit you.

The statement shows that Jack did not know how it was possible for him to live without some connection with Ennis  -- tenuous as that connection may be.

That Spring, at his parents' house, he probably wrestled with the possibility of how he could quit Ennis.  But the proximity of his parents' town to Riverton (where Ennis resided) would certainly NOT have isolated Jack if he did want to get over his relationship with Ennis.  Settling in Texas would have been a more effective strategy!

Hence, like you, I also suspect that this could possibly be interpreted as a way of making Ennis jealous -- enough to draw him into a commitment if he did so love Jack.  Or then again, would this strategy backfire (think about Ennis' threat to Jack)?

YES!  Not only the "I wish I knew how to quit you" BUT ALSO the fact that when Ennis breaks down, immediately after Jack says this, Jack goes to him to comfort him - and has to go to him twice because Ennis pushes him away.

But I agree that if Jack had been trying to use the "ranch neighbor" to make Ennis jealous, it would have backfired - because Ennis was already so jealous.  I think it's possible that Jack would have tried to live a double life - getting what he "needed" and still going to see Ennis.  It's not like Ennis was likely to go up to Lightning Flat and drop in - although who knows what he might have done if Jack had been back in Wyoming, or if Ennis suspected "unfaithfulness"?

BTW, pretty amazing poem!

[natalia]

Hopeless romantic that I am.

Jack reamined so in love with Ennis just as he was from the beginning until the day he died.  And, Ennis will be in love with Jack until he dies.

Jack + Ennis 4-ever

Carly Simon said, " ... suffering was the only thing that made me feel I was alive..."

Joan Jett said,  " ... love and pain can be one and the same..."

Kate Hepburn said,  "... how can I stop when it's what I live for?"

Jim says  Jack loves Ennis forever and ever...

I tend to side with you on the issue. I think that in moments of self doubt and frustration at his situation Jack may have tried to find solace with another man but finally realized that, no matter how hard the situation was, Ennis would be the only one who he felt truly at place with. To quote Maroon 5 (I know, shoot me now)
Love isn't always rainbows and butterflies
It’s compromise that moves us along

[tpe]

natalia and borger1582, I think jimnick says it most succinctly: 'Jack loves Ennis forever and ever...'

I think most of us here can live with this!

Indeed, it is hard for me to imagine that it could be any different. 

Nevertheless, the fact that other people think otherwise (as borger1582 points out) interests me a great deal also.  It would be most helpful to hear from them expound a bit more on this particular viewpoint...

[stickler]

To me I interpreted as yet another tradegy of the script.  I think after the final meeting and Jack goes into his dream world he remembers the perfect moment where Ennis hugged him from behind and hums a lullaby into his ears ... Jack is desperately in love.  But he also remembers that while Ennis is there hugginh him Ennis can not bring himself to hug him from the front - he is in denial about his feelings.  I then interpreted it that for the next 20 years Jack tried to coax him out of his shell but finally felt like he had failed (You used to come away easy. Now its like seeing the pope).  I suspect then that he felt obliged to move on from Ennis for his own sake even though he still loved him (this sort of thing happens to people all the time). In an effort to move himself on I suspect that he put himself back on the market, as it were, but I reckon that were Ennis to have said those three magic words I think Jack would have waited until the end of the world.

The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...

Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.

[brokebackmountain]

Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.

No..now I am feeling really sad.  :'( :'( :'(  You nailed it.

[natalia]

Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.

No..now I am feeling really sad.  :'( :'( :'(  You nailed it.

You definitely did. That thought was one of the first that made me cry after my first viewing. And The Wings just came on my iTunes random shuffle  :'(

[*Froggy*]

To me I interpreted as yet another tradegy of the script.  I think after the final meeting and Jack goes into his dream world he remembers the perfect moment where Ennis hugged him from behind and hums a lullaby into his ears ... Jack is desperately in love.  But he also remembers that while Ennis is there hugginh him Ennis can not bring himself to hug him from the front - he is in denial about his feelings.  I then interpreted it that for the next 20 years Jack tried to coax him out of his shell but finally felt like he had failed (You used to come away easy. Now its like seeing the pope).  I suspect then that he felt obliged to move on from Ennis for his own sake even though he still loved him (this sort of thing happens to people all the time). In an effort to move himself on I suspect that he put himself back on the market, as it were, but I reckon that were Ennis to have said those three magic words I think Jack would have waited until the end of the world.

The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...

Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.

  Once again thank you...I love reading your posts...this one makes me sad though...because I never thought about Jack's death like you did...Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him. Do you really think so? I wanna cry now... :'( This would start a great new thread!!!