Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers

[borger1582]

The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...

Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.

Ouch!  I'm not trying to argue really here, I just don't want to hurt this bad, so I'm gonna say the following: in the story (and the screenplay side directions) the lines "torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved," give me some hope that Jack was not doubting Ennis' LOVE for him, just Ennis' ability to COMMIT to Jack and give him everything he wants (needs?) to have from Ennis.

I had my 5th viewing, with a close friend, on Friday evening.  I changed my mind slightly regarding the look on Jack's face after he flashes back to the "HUG" as I call it, and the "present day" Jack is watching Ennis drive away.  I saw LESS determination to leave, and more sadness and yearning.  I also tried carefully to catch what Ennis says when he is in Jack's arms, which dialog is NOT in the screenplay from the "Story to Screenplay" book, and I believe now he says "Jack I can't stand this anymore" or "Jack I can't stand to live like this anymore."  Now some at the IMDB threads say Ennis says "I can't stand to lose anything more."  I prefer the "I can't stand this" for the reason that it reflects back to the scene by the river during their first reunion in four years, when Ennis says  the famous "If you can't fix it you got a stand it," and when Jack asks How Long Ennis says, "As long as we can ride her.  There ain't no reins on this one."  Ennis' whole conception of how he can handle this relationship is also beginning to crumble at this point.

OK went longer than intended.  I can't say I disagree with you, stickler, but I don't want to agree with you, because it makes me sad.  But I think many of us would agree that the way this film makes us sad is something we like!

[jimnick]

Jack knew Ennis loved him.  If he hadn't known he would not have been so very frustrated over it.  He knew, it didn't help, but he knew and he didn't die wondering if Ennis loved him.  He died without Ennis with him, propably wouldn't have died at all if Ennis had been with him, and that its the stone that Ennis must carry in his heart for the rest of his life.  But, Jack knew Ennis loved him and him alone.  Couldn't love someone for twenty years and not now it.

Jim thinks too much.

[*Froggy*]

Jim thinks too much.

No you don't!


But I'll have to think about this some more...maybe read the short story again
The last meeting is the most dificult one for me to watch now. And when Ennis get's the postcard...oh boy! :'(

[tpe]

Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.

No..now I am feeling really sad.  :'( :'( :'(  You nailed it.

I would like to think that he did not doubt Ennis.  I would like to think that, at worst, Jack resigned himself to never ever sharing a life together.  I think Ennis was, in this sense, an unattainable ideal for Jack.  But this did not stop Jack for feeling that he would never lose Ennis' love.  The fact that Ennis broke down after Jack said 'I wish I knew how to quit you.' shows how much Ennis was hurt by this.  He loved Jack terribly, in his own way.  But I doubt there was anything else in Ennis that equalled that love for Jack.

Am I a hopeless romantic?

[stickler]

  Once again thank you...I love reading your posts...this one makes me sad though...because I never thought about Jack's death like you did...Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him. Do you really think so? I wanna cry now... :'( This would start a great new thread!!!

Thankyou Frog 123

Perhaps I should modify my point slightly in light of the previous responses.  I suppose that Jack new that Ennis had deep feelings for him ... how could he not have given their 20 year relationship?  Perhaps I think that Jack just got to the point where he doubted whether Ennis, with all his angst and fear, could find it within him to realise his feelings for Jack.  I sense that for the preceeding 20 years Jack was in an emotional limbo not be able to bear to let go but going through a quiet agony by holding on.  During such situations I suspect that its reasonable for Jack to question whether Ennis loved him enough.

Whats particularly interesting in this film is the interpretations that it brings up. With psychology there's a branch called NLP and one of the cornerstones of it is basically that people do not see the world as it is but rather as they see themselves ... Peoples perceptions are shaped by their experiences and when someone offers an opinion they are not talking about you or a film but rather they are talking about their hopes, their fears ... their dreams. To this end its quite likely that different people see different thingsin the film and experience it in different ways. So please, forgive me if my perceptions seem at odds to your own.

Another point that I think about is that its almost part of the human condition to hope for things to end well ... we want them to end well to gain closure.  Thats why so many Hollywood films pander to our tastes.  We leave vindicated and can sleep easily at night.  In a previous post I mentioned Flaubert's Sentimental Education ... and to quote 'in it he paints a picture where anticipation is the purest form of pleasure and the most reliable and that while the things that happen to you can invariably dissapoint the things that never happen to you never dim, never fade, they're always engraved in your heart with a sort of sweet sadness' ... We want Jack and Ennis to end up together ... we want Jack to know of Ennis' love for him and vice versa ... that way we would get closure and the film would end but because we dont know, because we doubt, the film haunts us and is left unresolved.  :-\

[borger1582]

and to quote 'in it he paints a picture where anticipation is the purest form of pleasure and the most reliable and that while the things that happen to you can invariably dissapoint the things that never happen to you never dim, never fade, they're always engraved in your heart with a sort of sweet sadness' ... We want Jack and Ennis to end up together ... we want Jack to know of Ennis' love for him and vice versa ... that way we would get closure and the film would end but because we dont know, because we doubt, the film haunts us and is left unresolved.  :-\

OK, this is an excellent point, not just to the nature of this film and story and why it haunts so many of us so powerfully, but also internally to the story, and I'm trying to make this point on two levels.  It also doesn't sit well with me, and I or someone else made this point literally weeks ago now over at IMDB . . .

Jack and Ennis, if they had ranched up together, might not have stayed together . . .

And here's the thing on that - even though they were happy on Brokeback, it wasn't daily life reality and probably couldn't be even if society had let them be together.  Furthermore, although they lived together while they were young for a few months, by twenty years on, Jack had idealized (and possibly Ennis as well) memories from BBM - so Jack's anticipation of living with Ennis may indeed have been "greater than the fact," to the point where disappointment and bitterness would have soured what they had.

However, since it was infrequent, maybe it was somehow more pleasurable - and Jack's inability to obtain what he ostensibly wanted most meant he could never be disappointed by the reality . . .

You know, it's late here on the west coast, I'm tired, and I don't think I really believe a word of this hogwash I just wrote . . . but I'll leave it up because it should result in some interesting responses.

Is it this board or IMDB where there's a "would Jack have cheated on Ennis if they had lived together" thread?

[stickler]

Ok this topic has really got my mind ticking over and I've been thinking about it all day at work (with a rather vacant expression on my face).  I think it takes borger's response into consideration and I hope its a little more optimistic 

This is quite complicated and I hope that I haven't made a dogs dinner of it ...

Here goes ...

These views take some of their cues from 'The Road Less Travelled' by M.Scott Peck.  According to M.Scott Peck the word 'love' has historically always been a verb in the English language.  Therefore, in this light, love has always been something that you DO rather than something that you FEEL.  According to this view point the feeling of 'falling into love' that people experience isn't so much love but rather something that is called cathexis.  In recent times, however, organisations such as Hollywood have blurred the distinction between the two concepts so as to paint cathexis as love.  Another reason that cathexis and love are so blurred is that one often accompanies the other whenever it is present ...for example upon developing cathexis for a person your emotions change ... you become less rational and see them as being perfect individuals.  This causes you to treat them very well and to DO thoughtful and compassionate things for them and, in doing so, begin to foster a loving relationship.  An important factor in this is that, in most couples, cathexis wears off after a period of time ... people often begin to lust after their partners less than they used too.  This is perfectly normal since cathexis appears to be quite a base (but pleasurable emotion) geared towards the propagation of the species.  When the cathexis wears off it is left to the love within the relationship to sustain it ... and depending upon the people involved this can either spell the death knell to the relationship or to represent the onset of a purer relationship based more on love.  The toss side to this is that when you act in a loving way towards another individual you concern for their well being begins to develop a cathexis towards that person.  Under this viewpoint whether Jack and Ennis's relationship flourished after they committed would largely depend upon how they weathered to transition between cathexis to love.  (Personally, given the depth of their passion for one another I think that they would have been a very loving couple and would have had a long and happy relationship potentially)

This then links back to the previous musing ... I now think that Jack both cathected Ennis and loved him. Jack was totally besotted with Ennis (cathexis) and was prepared to sacrifice to be with him (love).  Ennis on the other hand apears to me to have cathected Jack in that he held very strong feelings but unfortuneately, due to his environment, angst and fears, was unable to sacrifice his fears and try to create a life together (in other words, to act in a loving way).  To me this left a gaping hole in Jack which would explain why he felt he needed to move on with his life  ... he doubted Ennis' ability to love him.  The turning point with Ennis though is in the final scene with his daughter ... I sense that at that point he finally reached a point where he would have been prepared to throw asidw his fear and embrace a life with Jack ... and finally been able to provide him with the love Jack so desperately craved.

[borger1582]

Not familiar with the word "cathexis" although from the context it seems comparable to (although apparently not equated to) "romance" or "lust."  Maybe it's the connection between romance and lust.

Very thoughtful post, of course.  If you are correct, then Jack loved Ennis, but Ennis never really loved Jack until the very end.  I am applying the definition of sacrificing for another person as the defining quality of love.

HOWEVER, that is in perspective of Jack and Ennis "ranching up" together.  What about the fact that Ennis used to just quit his (beloved) ranch jobs in order to have time to go on "fishing trips" with Jack.  Is that enough sacrifice to label what he had "love" rather than "cathexis"?  Did Ennis give Jack, in the ultimate analysis, everything he had to give?  And is love OR cathexis appropriate when you give things you shouldn't give, that you have no right to give.  Film Ennis would not give up his relationship with his girls to be with Jack.  Film Jack would have given up (in my opinion) most important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis.  If I'm correct in this (and I understand it's a mighty big "If"), can we possibly call this a love to support? 

[stickler]

Not familiar with the word "cathexis" although from the context it seems comparable to (although apparently not equated to) "romance" or "lust."  Maybe it's the connection between romance and lust.

Very thoughtful post, of course.  If you are correct, then Jack loved Ennis, but Ennis never really loved Jack until the very end.  I am applying the definition of sacrificing for another person as the defining quality of love.

HOWEVER, that is in perspective of Jack and Ennis "ranching up" together.  What about the fact that Ennis used to just quit his (beloved) ranch jobs in order to have time to go on "fishing trips" with Jack.  Is that enough sacrifice to label what he had "love" rather than "cathexis"?  Did Ennis give Jack, in the ultimate analysis, everything he had to give?  And is love OR cathexis appropriate when you give things you shouldn't give, that you have no right to give.  Film Ennis would not give up his relationship with his girls to be with Jack.  Film Jack would have given up (in my opinion) most important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis.  If I'm correct in this (and I understand it's a mighty big "If"), can we possibly call this a love to support? 

Hmmm good response.

I think cathexis is the feeling of 'falling in love' that people get.  Evolutionarily it serves a great purpose ... against all logic you invest your soul into another person. Its a lovely experience but different I feel to the aforementioned idea of 'love'.

I take your opinion of the ranching and giving up of job thing yes ... I suppose Ennis did sacrifice a lot in his life for Jack.  My main thought was that it appears to me that Jack needed that regular close contact from Ennis to feel loved ('I'm not like you Ennis, I can't make it on a few high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year ...).  I'm not trying to paint Ennis as a bad guy at all (I think that they were both very much the victim in the story) but it seems what he was prepared to give wasn't quite enough for what Jack needed in a partner.  I kinda think that in order satisfy Jack, Ennis had to push himself out of his safety boundary and put himself in what he considered to be a terrifying position (ie living with a man (which was quite justified given the context of the rest of the story)).  Anyway, in the previous postings I wasn't so much trying to suggest that Ennis didn't love Jack but rather I can percieve why Jack would feel unloved by Ennis. ... I suppose from Ennis' point of view he was doing everything he could for Jack ... he seemed to feel like he was offering his entire soul to him (I can't stand this anymore Jack) ... while at the same time Jack felt that Ennis was giving him enough (for whatever reason)  ... and hence the fargument and fight in the final scene together ... ? 

(Incidently I cant help wondering why, if Jack was so in love with Ennis and wanted to be around him why he didnt just move up to live around Ennis anyway ... by the time Ennis was divorced he would have had more freedom anyway and by doing so Jack could have taken more control of the situation by himself?)

With regards to the last part of your question that is ultimately a very moral question and I dont really feel qualified to pass a overall opinion on it (Indeed regarding the whole thing I'm not trying to pass a moral judgement on anything but to rather suggest how I perceive the situation to be).  Fundamentally its the same question that straight couples, who are going through divorce, have to ask themselves all the time ... to stay together for the kids or to move on...  However, regarding Ennis and his daughters, while in the early years I can see how that argument would stick in the later years Ennis was divorced from Alma ... the girls were grown up ... and after his argument with Alma (you dont go there to fish) he didnt see them for a prolonged period of time anyhow.  Even saying that, on his say so Jack would have moved up to live with to him so that, in effect, Ennis could have had his cake and eaten it.  My feeling is that Ennis' primary fear was his own homosexuality and that he used his daughters as an excuse not to move in with Jack.  Jack on the other does appear to be willing to sacrifice important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis (again I'm not inclined to suggest whether that is morally good or bad) ...

Basically what I'm trying to say is that because of Ennis's fears he was unable to provide Jack with what he needed (and hence the love he felt he needed) for a relationship.  It appears that (to me) the last scene Ennis had finally come to terms with his feelings (Jack I swear .... (I love you - I presume)) and that he would be prepared to move in with Jack were he to miraculously reappear.   ... I'm simply trying to suggest my interpetation of their feelings rather than passing a judgement on whether those feelings are admirable or not.

Anyway ... sorry that this is so garbled ... these are very deep emotions and I sometimes fimd them hard to interpret properly :-s

[*Froggy*]

We need Annie Proulx on that one..I wanna know what she meant when she wrote it!!! :-\

[jimnick]

I don't believe that Jack would have had to sacrifice his relationship with his son to be with Ennis.  Consider that the divorce rate (US) is over fifty percent, there must be a great number of parents that don't live with their children.  It could be cinsidered one and the same argument:  Ennis (apparently) didn't love Jack because they didn't live together, and Jack (apparently) wouldn't love his child because they wouldn't have  lived together had he been with Ennis.  I don't believe it either way.  Love is stronger than the distance between people.

This thread is getting really strung out...


Yes.  It would be interesting to hear Annie Proulx has to say about it, ... and us...
and that's what I think...

Jim

[*Froggy*]

This thread is getting really strung out...

Jim,
What does it mean..I don't understand this expression?

[jimnick]

I don't know how to explain it.  It is supposed to be a pun.  A play on the words thread and string (strung).  Strung out is like taking something to the Nth degree.  Or, a person can be strung out in love, or a worst case, strung out on drugs.  Does this make any sense at all?

Jim

[*Froggy*]

I don't know how to explain it.  It is supposed to be a pun.  A play on the words thread and string (strung).  Strung out is like taking something to the Nth degree.  Or, a person can be strung out in love, or a worst case, strung out on drugs.  Does this make any sense at all?

Jim

ahhhhhhhhhh...ok for the play on words...sometimes I miss out on english expressions... can't help it if i'm a Frog!LOL

Thankx

[stickler]

Point taken ...

 

[*Froggy*]

Point taken ...

 

 

[Toadily]

The beauty of the script is that there is tragedy after tragedy after tragedy ... not only does Ennis have to look back on the death of his soul mate but he also has to look back knowing he never told him how he felt and knowing that Jack, who loved him, had doubted Ennis' feelings for him ... Ennis reconciles this with the 'Jack, I swear' line ...

Personally I find the fact, in my mind, that Jack died doubting Ennis' love for him the most devastating and sadly beautiful aspects of the entire movie.

Ouch!  I'm not trying to argue really here, I just don't want to hurt this bad, so I'm gonna say the following: in the story (and the screenplay side directions) the lines "torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news.  Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved," give me some hope that Jack was not doubting Ennis' LOVE for him, just Ennis' ability to COMMIT to Jack and give him everything he wants (needs?) to have from Ennis.

I had my 5th viewing, with a close friend, on Friday evening.  I changed my mind slightly regarding the look on Jack's face after he flashes back to the "HUG" as I call it, and the "present day" Jack is watching Ennis drive away.  I saw LESS determination to leave, and more sadness and yearning.  I also tried carefully to catch what Ennis says when he is in Jack's arms, which dialog is NOT in the screenplay from the "Story to Screenplay" book, and I believe now he says "Jack I can't stand this anymore" or "Jack I can't stand to live like this anymore."  Now some at the IMDB threads say Ennis says "I can't stand to lose anything more."  I prefer the "I can't stand this" for the reason that it reflects back to the scene by the river during their first reunion in four years, when Ennis says  the famous "If you can't fix it you got a stand it," and when Jack asks How Long Ennis says, "As long as we can ride her.  There ain't no reins on this one."  Ennis' whole conception of how he can handle this relationship is also beginning to crumble at this point.

OK went longer than intended.  I can't say I disagree with you, stickler, but I don't want to agree with you, because it makes me sad.  But I think many of us would agree that the way this film makes us sad is something we like!

I couldn't tell completely what was said at that last meeting too during the hug, I think you are correct with "I can't stand this anymore" which is really sad for Ennis to look back on that being his last words to him. Ugh.  But if Jack did bring that guy up to his Dad's that might explain why he would try to find someone else.

[rabjr1]

I got to see the movie again but the first time I saw it I could have sworn that Ennis perceptively chokes up when John Twist tells Ennis that Jack was talking about bringing ANOTHER man to the ranch and set up a cabin there to help. did Jack finally give up on Ennis and found another to take his place in his?  Is Ennis broken up momentarily by this news? 

But: John Twist also says "But like most of Jack's ideas it never come to pass"

Leaving me to speculate that yea, sure, Jack may have said something like that to his father but " it never come to pass"

Someone once said: "If you want to be sure that they (insert boy-girl friend, lover, companion etc here) keep interested in you, make sure there is someone else interested in you also"  or something to that effect.

[dirtbiker]

You are right.  Ennis' expression changes a bit, and he gets a little more welled up when Jack's father mentioned the other fella.  If you notice, his nose flares up a bit just briefly when that happens...

[stickler]

Someone once said: "If you want to be sure that they (insert boy-girl friend, lover, companion etc here) keep interested in you, make sure there is someone else interested in you also"  or something to that effect.

Awww that seems like a really broken and hurt thing to say to me ...  :-[

Re the John Twist things never coming to pass thing I thought that was refering to the fact that Jack died before his plan came to fruition.  I found that a really sad aspect of the film too ... when Jack was talking to Ennis and he said that nothing ever worked out the way he wanted it too ... I felt real bad for him.  Kinda makes me wanna give him a hug ...

[rabjr1]

stickler, I'm not trying to make you sad.  I think it is a small aspect of hamanity (some people call them games) but there is a phenomenon that when we see someone we might have noticed casusally over a period of time not taking  interest in them until the time we see them together with someone else.  Then people sometimes ask: What was it in that person that I missed? Our interest is now piqued in them.   

[jimnick]

stickler, I'm not trying to make you sad.  I think it is a small aspect of hamanity (some people call them games) but there is a phenomenon that when we see someone we might have noticed casusally over a period of time not taking  interest in them until the time we see them together with someone else.  Then people sometimes ask: What was it in that person that I missed? Our interest is now piqued in them.   

I think you're right.  It's called being a human being.

Jim

[stickler]

Yeah I know .. and it doesnt really make me that sad.

Although I kinda think that if someone says things like that it usually means that they have been hurt in the past becuase someone has rejected them until they kinda moved on with their lives.  When I think about the film and the messages that it passes it makes me think how fragile yet enduring love can be.  And that, given that time will one day catch up with you, that its a shame that such games exist (amazingly hypocritical of myself too probably given that I've been party to such things in the past but ho hum)

[jimnick]

Yeah I know .. and it doesnt really make me that sad.

Although I kinda think that if someone says things like that it usually means that they have been hurt in the past becuase someone has rejected them until they kinda moved on with their lives.  When I think about the film and the messages that it passes it makes me think how fragile yet enduring love can be.  And that, given that time will one day catch up with you, that its a shame that such games exist (amazingly hypocritical of myself too probably given that I've been party to such things in the past but ho hum)

Friend, don't be down or hard on yourself.  It's how we learn.

Jim

[borger1582]

(Incidently I cant help wondering why, if Jack was so in love with Ennis and wanted to be around him why he didnt just move up to live around Ennis anyway ... by the time Ennis was divorced he would have had more freedom anyway and by doing so Jack could have taken more control of the situation by himself?)

With regards to the last part of your question that is ultimately a very moral question and I dont really feel qualified to pass a overall opinion on it (Indeed regarding the whole thing I'm not trying to pass a moral judgement on anything but to rather suggest how I perceive the situation to be).  Fundamentally its the same question that straight couples, who are going through divorce, have to ask themselves all the time ... to stay together for the kids or to move on...  However, regarding Ennis and his daughters, while in the early years I can see how that argument would stick in the later years Ennis was divorced from Alma ... the girls were grown up ... and after his argument with Alma (you dont go there to fish) he didnt see them for a prolonged period of time anyhow.  Even saying that, on his say so Jack would have moved up to live with to him so that, in effect, Ennis could have had his cake and eaten it.  My feeling is that Ennis' primary fear was his own homosexuality and that he used his daughters as an excuse not to move in with Jack.  Jack on the other does appear to be willing to sacrifice important aspects of his relationship with his son for Ennis (again I'm not inclined to suggest whether that is morally good or bad) ...

Basically what I'm trying to say is that because of Ennis's fears he was unable to provide Jack with what he needed (and hence the love he felt he needed) for a relationship.  It appears that (to me) the last scene Ennis had finally come to terms with his feelings (Jack I swear .... (I love you - I presume)) and that he would be prepared to move in with Jack were he to miraculously reappear.   ... I'm simply trying to suggest my interpetation of their feelings rather than passing a judgement on whether those feelings are admirable or not.

Anyway ... sorry that this is so garbled ... these are very deep emotions and I sometimes fimd them hard to interpret properly :-s

Sorry it's been so long since I've been around - also going to be on vaca for two weeks (lucky me, I got to work 17 hr days this week, LOL!)

Anyway, I think the answer to your first item (which is parenthetical) is Ennis' paranoia - having Jack around would have been too much of a temptation for Ennis (from the story 'can't hardly be decent together' - from story and film, 'this thing grabs a hold of us' and 'ain't no reins on this one.') - especially after his confrontation with Alma in the kitchen Ennis would have NOT been comfortable with Jack being that close, I'm thinking.

But your thought goes deeper, and I think appropriately so - I'm just beginning to pick up on this from the IMDB boards.  Basically, Ennis is so homophobic that he's desperately, (pathologically?) afraid of his desires. 

I might be willing to buy this, it'll take some thinking on.

And insightful (especially in terms of the story) about Ennis perhaps using the girls as an excuse, particularly after the divorce, although both the film and the story still seem to show an Ennis who really has no desire to expand his horizons by traveling or leaving the comfort of the familiar.  Film Ennis was a more devoted father LATER in his life than story Ennis, which does pick at my theories that Ennis was somehow morally "superior" to Jack because he was gonna stay around for his girls . . .

Of course, in the film, Jack does suggest Ennis move to Texas when Ennis actually voices his paranoia to Jack; naturally Ennis responds with scorn and derision to Jack's suggestion . . .

I'm from a probably unpopular camp of thinkers now a days who actually believe that, absent abuse, it's generally better for parents to stay together for the children's sake until the youngest hits 18.  Posting that though over at IMDB got me more abrasive responses than anything else I ever posted there - many from folks who sound like they were pretty hurt by their parents' conflict - but exceptions don't necessarily break a rule. 

I would much rather Ennis kept Jack in his "sights" right after BBM and neither of them married; failing that, I would have liked them both to stay in the marriages (which Jack does, but Ennis doesn't, BUT I have to believe Jack would have divorced Lureen in a moment if Ennis made himself "available") until the youngest child of the three was 18 - then, have at it!  But many people (understandably) feel they should have been together right after they reconnected.  My problem with that view is it really makes Ennis the 'bad guy' and I'm not feeling like I want to saddle him with that - as you say, stickler, they are both victims, but to some extent, of their own poor choices.

Is it the Fine Young Cannibals who sing about if you've ever fallen in love with someone you shouldn't have fallen in love with?

[borger1582]

Stickler,

Just looked at another thread on this board and found I had said much the same thing (in less space!) that I just said above IN REPLY TO ANOTHER OF YOUR POSTS!  LOL!  I apologize, don't want you to think I'm browbeating you or anyone else!  Too much work and not enough sleep!

I'll miss everyone's insightful posts for the next two weeks - going on a long car trip with my father - love him, but I'll be ready to communicate about BBM by the time I return.  You all take care while I'm gone!

[stickler]

Hmmm its not really for me to pass comment on what other people do in their married lives.  Personally I can understand both sides of the coin with regards to keeping families together ... and its tragic to see them fail.

I agree that sometimes you could say its in the childs interest to maintain the nuclear family but I fear that that sometimes means that people spend 20 years of their lives really unhappy.  I also think that two separate parents, who conduct themselves with integrity, and stick to the reality of their convictions can be a great role model for a child.  It seems possible that having to separate but happy parents beats two together, unhappy and lonely ones ... they could seem more in line with their principles.
As I said ... its not for me to judge but I can perceive situations where both possibilities are 'best'.  I guess I think that in an ideal situation everyone has gotta pursue happiness becuase its something tat happens together ... if one person is in emotional agony then everyone around them is bought down too ... Ennis's love of Jack and rejection of Alma ruined the best part of Alma's life too ... could she have not recaptured happiness sooner with somebody else?

Regarding 'E+J's' poor choices ... I feel that that is a little over harsh ... of course were they to choose differently things coulda worked out.  However, at 19, in that environment the forces opposing that choice are tantamount to emotional suicide ... perhaps worse because you'd have no sympathy or support ... thats an awful lot of pressure to be under.  I balked at it for about 10 years before I came out and I live in the reatively enlightend 2000's ... tis hard thing to do.

Similarly with Jack ... I can see where your coming from with him being morally inferior.  My heart went out to him all the way through the film though.  I kinda think that integrity and stuff takes a huge amount of strength to do - strength that needs to be built up through recieving love and nuturing ... if thats lacking (and I feel it was throughout Jacks life with the exception of Ennis) then its much harder to be that strong. 

I llike your idea about ennis's homophobia.  tis good and why I think that the girls were used as an excuse- especially in the later years.  It still doesnt explain why Jack didnt try to move to be by Ennis and effectively forced himself onto him though?

[coguaro]

I don't know if Jack finally give up on Ennis... what I know is that Ennis loved more and more Jack and he upsets his live for him while Jack had the capability to organize his live (he marry a rich woman, he go to Mexico for sex, he look to other man). We can assume that Jack requirements in term of Ennis presence (and sexual activities) maybe bring him to looking for other mans; by this way he become exposed to social prejudgment... and.. it risk assassination (how Ennis predicted)... finally that's what happened: Jack was killed because hes homosexuality was near to be evident in his society (it maybe speculation.. but I'm sure of that)
I mean that Jack didn't protect his love with Ennis as Ennis do... I mean that Jack was...little egoist...

Jack death is death of love for Ennis... 

If I was Jack I never betray Ennis, I accepted his ... absurd conditions.. because of I was in love with him and because I was sure of Ennis absolute, love


Baci
coguaro

[jimnick]

I don't know if Jack finally give up on Ennis... what I know is that Ennis loved more and more Jack and he upsets his live for him while Jack had the capability to organize his live (he marry a rich woman, he go to Mexico for sex, he look to other man). We can assume that Jack requirements in term of Ennis presence (and sexual activities) maybe bring him to looking for other mans; by this way he become exposed to social prejudgment... and.. it risk assassination (how Ennis predicted)... finally that's what happened: Jack was killed because hes homosexuality was near to be evident in his society (it maybe speculation.. but I'm sure of that)
I mean that Jack didn't protect his love with Ennis as Ennis do... I mean that Jack was...little egoist...

Jack death is death of love for Ennis... 

If I was Jack I never betray Ennis, I accepted his ... absurd conditions.. because of I was in love with him and because I was sure of Ennis absolute, love


Baci
coguaro

Bravo!!!

That is exactly what I think.  Looking at a 2+ hour movie and actually spending twenty years in love with someone are much different.  Jack had to know that Ennis so loved him eternally.

Jim

[*Froggy*]

Jack death is death of love for Ennis... 

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Are you all against me today?
The more I read on this board, the more I wanna cry!!!
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(