Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers

[monicita]

Valandil, WW and Missisauga,

I think you are right, somebody you have loved the way that Jack and Ennis loved each other, never can go out of your life. This kind of love stays with you forever. But does that have to mean that no other love is possible? For some people, it seems to be so. For others not. I think Ennis is the kind of person, for whom no other love would ever be possible and he is so jealous that he would rather see his lover dead than with another man (only men seem to matter for both of them. Having affairs with women seems to be accepted by both as a kind of camouflage action). To tell the truth: I have always abhorred the idea of the crime passionel, killing somebody out of jealousy. And I think that being faithful can mean lots of things. So I do not agree with some of the posts here. Being faithful doesn't have to mean not sleeping with anybody else. It can mean that you remain committed to somebody and to your idea of love. Jack did that for decades. And when the point came, where he realised that their love was hurting them both, he did the only faithful thing he could: He let go, for the good of them both. Of course, that doesn't mean that he would ever have forgotten Ennis, not even that he would never have seen him again. But he held fast to his idea of what their love should have been, to what fulfillment it might have offered, if only.... So in my eyes he was faithful.

Love,
monicita

[tpe]

That's what I think- that after the divorce scene his dreams really started to unravel. It was then that he knew without a doubt that it was Ennis holding Ennis back. I don't believe that he would ever give Ennis up;the dream of the sweet life? Yes. Lately I've been seeing the flashback as Jack remembering/chasing the ghost of Brokeback past- Ennis was freely loving him then; that's the Ennis he was chasing. In a way it is selfish to want them to stay locked in those "seperate and difficult lives" but to me, they are so much a part of each other that it'd be like losing a vital organ if they were to seperate permanently. Do I want to think that Jack loved Ennis enough to let him go for Ennis' sake? Yes and for his own sake as well, but that's the cold, rational head speaking. The heart won't allow me to believe that they could ever quit each other.

Ennis seemed to have become more and more withdrawn over the yesrs -- Jack said as much that the get-togethers became less and less frequent over the years.  Did he think that Ennis was giving up on him?  Could this have been part of the reason why he lost hope in the end?

He lost hope, but not love.

[tpe]

You can live a separate life, move on, in the jargon, but love doesn't disappear because it's not openly manifested. Each of them is there inside the other,too closely interwoven ever to be disentangled.

"Those who one another keep alive ne're parted be,"

That we one jot of former love retain.
Now at the last gasp of Love's latest breath,
When, his pulse failing, Passion speechless lies,
When Faith is kneeling by his bed of death,
And Innocence is closing up his eyes,
- Now if thou would'st, when all have given him over,
From death to life thou might'st him yet recover.

 

[tpe]

Love is really funny sometimes it is our happiness and at the same time our doom…

Let’s say that in this case for both of them was the same, the fact that Jack waited for nearly 20 years for Ennis is one of the most beautiful ways to express his love. He lived on Ennis pace, waiting him to confirm their encounters and even though they were less and less possible thanks to Ennis jobs, he didn’t complained (not until the End at least), but why? Why he complained? Was because he stops loving Ennis? Wrong! It was the opposite! He couldn’t take it any longer he waited for a long time, and he was dying to have Ennis on his side, it came to the time for him that he didn’t need a week Ennis; he needed a 24/7 a 365 days Ennis! Is this called giving up? No, it is called rights, Jack had all the right to ask this, he knew Ennis loved him and he loved him too, but Ennis was too scared to accept it. So I’ve read on other places that he let him go, could be not forever that’s for sure, but at least for a time in which Ennis could realize his own feelings (I think, forgive me if  I’m wrong) as we see on his last Encounter with Cassie Ennis is different somehow his last meeting with Jack affected him (and I think it was a good change) but Jack could have tried to start a new life, but love is a doom sometimes and no matter how much you tried to take it from your heart it’s there still untouched, frozen until you resign to accept the truth, True Love can’t be forgotten, there’s one song I like that says that true love is eternal and the others are just to try to forget which never happens. Jack and Ennis are clear on this no matter how much they tried at the beginning to forget it never went through.

I said it once, when my mother died my father never married again, he tried to get into other relationships, but none of them worked. When I was older enough to ask (19) I asked him why he never got married again, he told me that he couldn’t quit my mother, she was her real and only love and no matter how many other women he date my mother was the one in her heart. Now I recall that memory and I compare it to Jack and Ennis and conclude with this let him go maybe…Give up on him? Never, Nunca, jamais.

Thank you for sharing this.  And yes, true love is eternal.

[greenfrog]

You can live a separate life, move on, in the jargon, but love doesn't disappear because it's not openly manifested. Each of them is there inside the other,too closely interwoven ever to be disentangled.

"Those who one another keep alive ne're parted be,"

That we one jot of former love retain.
Now at the last gasp of Love's latest breath,
When, his pulse failing, Passion speechless lies,
When Faith is kneeling by his bed of death,
And Innocence is closing up his eyes,
- Now if thou would'st, when all have given him over,
From death to life thou might'st him yet recover.

 

Beautiful  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[dodoLea]

For answering to this question I was surprised to start thinking about their last day on BBM.Jack was not worried or upset to leave as he didn't need BBM to love Ennis,he knows his feeling about him, BBM or not.His desire to joke,his thoughts to have another summer together the next year.The Ennis'shirt "theft" was made after the punch,yes,but I don't think it means that he thought it was unlikely that they met again, if it was we haven't had the  "Twist, you guys wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs babysittin' the sheep while you stem the rose" scene with Aguirre.It's just one of the many things that shows us his love for Ennis.
I guess the anger he throw away in the "I wish I knew how to quit you.” scene begins  when Ennis said "I guess I'll see you around, huh?" He looks so surprised by Ennis been so distant.I wasn't surprised by the four years without trying to known where Ennis was and He wouldn't have looked for him If he wasn't so in love with Ennis,do you remember?"he had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own".He didn't looked for Ennis only for sex. I could go on listing the Jack's disappointmens for many times asking "Why  he didn't give up on Ennis before?" their meeting after Ennis' divorce...another bad surprise for Jack,what a let-down for him! How to react!...well,we know how he reacted.I guess he didn't give up on Ennis in the end, but he wouldn't have tried to see him anymore.He'd have waited for an Ennis move.
It's easy for me to understand Jack feelings at this point, but, as Cassie said,I don't get you Ennis Del Mar...Yes,I understand Ennis feelings on the BBM last day, I can also understand the punch and the cold goodbye, especially after his breaking down ...he couldn't go back on BBM the next year,he just get married with Alma and he takes "about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't’t a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while.” He couldn't knew how to find Jack, so what could he make?.But I can't understand his "inertia"...I can understand his fears but how could they be stronger than his love for Jack? If Jack were not died, what would he have made? I don't know how to answer to this one.

[aimi15]

I think Jack's wish to see Ennis remained but i don't know if he believed it would be a reality - if only he had got the damned postcard from Ennis before he died.

When it cuts to the flashback scene Jack's face is so ful of sleepy happiness - Ennis is riding away but he knows he will come back to him. Cut so starkly against this is present day Jack - i think he has lost the knowledge of Ennis's return by that point, looking so broken and distraught.

If i had one wish it would be that Jack had read that last postcard - even if AP still saw it fit to kill hin off, he would have known Ennis still felt a bond with him...

I'm rambling again but this thread kills me... :\'(

[welshwitch]

I think there can come a point where you try to tell yourself you've given up on someone, just to save yourself any more misery, but however successfully you SAY this, deep down you know it isn't true, and if the faintest hope re-appears, you find that for you nothing has changed. Jane Austen said in "Persuasion" that it was women who claimed the privlege of loving longest when hope was gone, but Jack is an example of a man who went on loving long after logically he should have given up.

But love isn't logical or, for that matter, controllable.

[tpe]

I think Jack's wish to see Ennis remained but i don't know if he believed it would be a reality - if only he had got the damned postcard from Ennis before he died.

When it cuts to the flashback scene Jack's face is so ful of sleepy happiness - Ennis is riding away but he knows he will come back to him. Cut so starkly against this is present day Jack - i think he has lost the knowledge of Ennis's return by that point, looking so broken and distraught.

If i had one wish it would be that Jack had read that last postcard - even if AP still saw it fit to kill hin off, he would have known Ennis still felt a bond with him...

I'm rambling again but this thread kills me... :\'(

A kind of fear shot through me when I saw this topic resurrect.

I think the fact that he never saw the last postcard adds poigniancy to his death.  It is a lonely fate: to lose hope.

[tpe]

I think there can come a point where you try to tell yourself you've given up on someone, just to save yourself any more misery, but however successfully you SAY this, deep down you know it isn't true, and if the faintest hope re-appears, you find that for you nothing has changed. Jane Austen said in "Persuasion" that it was women who claimed the privlege of loving longest when hope was gone, but Jack is an example of a man who went on loving long after logically he should have given up.

But love isn't logical or, for that matter, controllable.

Does anyone ever lose all hope?  Indeed, I sometimes wonder about this.  Perhaps in the case of suicide.  But then again, in some cultures, suicide can be an affirmation of hope.

Perhaps deep down, Jack still harbored hope.  It would surface at any hint from Ennis.  I can't see Jack not reaching out to Ennis if an opening presented itself.
 

[manhattangirl]

Hi,

I believe Jack did had enough,  in the film and in the short story, Jack most important memory was when they were by the fire, it was pure, like the author states in her story "artless and sexless", he had love for Ennis in the purest form.  But how could he fight against Ennis lack of willingness to be with him.   

In the movie the Ranch foreman in Texas was putting the 'blocks" on Jack, he was willing, where Ennis wasn't.  Even towards the end of the film Jack's father mentioned to Ennis that he was coming back with a someone else, I think Jack was "trying"  to move on.   That final showdown with Jack and Ennis, I think was the last attempt for Jack to plead with Ennis to be with him.  Jack's death left it open for our interpretation.

This is mine, for what its worth.


Manhattangirl

[tpe]

Hi,

I believe Jack did had enough,  in the film and in the short story, Jack most important memory was when they were by the fire, it was pure, like the author states in her story "artless and sexless", he had love for Ennis in the purest form.  But how could he fight against Ennis lack of willingness to be with him.   

In the movie the Ranch foreman in Texas was putting the 'blocks" on Jack, he was willing, where Ennis wasn't.  Even towards the end of the film Jack's father mentioned to Ennis that he was coming back with a someone else, I think Jack was "trying"  to move on.   That final showdown with Jack and Ennis, I think was the last attempt for Jack to plead with Ennis to be with him.  Jack's death left it open for our interpretation.

This is mine, for what its worth.


Manhattangirl

This is what makes Jack larger than life in the end.  For all the ambiguity that surrounds his final plans and death, we see nonetheless, that it locks Ennis's fate forever.

[aintfoolin]

Exactly how open was Jack about his relationships with his parents and quitting Ennis for Randall? They knew of Ennis AND Randall. Maybe he talked to his father about them in the context of "just friends" who were willing to help him whip the ranch into shape. I don't know.  We  do know from the Thanksgiving scene with LD, that Jack was capable of putting his foot down if he needed to. Maybe this is how he dealt with his father about bringing  one of these guys up. This maturer, older Jack may have more sway with the old man than we think. I wish we saw more  interaction between the two of them but I did'nt hear Twist Sr. say  to Ennis "not on your life" or  "it'll be a cold day in hell" or any other term indicating his refusal to allow it.  Maybe I'm wrong but he seemed more upset with Jack's inability to carry through on his promises to help him out , though his contempt for his son's lifestyle was obvious.... Just thinkin out loud. Thanks

[welshwitch]

It occurs to  me that his father's continued contempt for him and what he saw as Jack's broken promises may have made Jack think again about Ennis. If his father despised him for making promises that he never kept, Jack saw Ennis as the cause of his doing that and Randall as the means of fulfilling them - if you think in terms of simply helping on the ranch I doubt whether John Twist would care who Jack brought as long as he was competent - maybe he was beginning to think that Ennis would never change and would never allow him either to turn up with the help he'd promised or start a life of their own together, but Randall would.

I also wonder how John Twist would have coped if he'd had to face Jack with helper in tow, keeping his promises so that his father could no longer laugh at him - if I read him right he'd probably have found fault with Randall for having learned about farming in an academic context rather than getting down and dirty on a farm.

As Jack said, there was no pleasing his father, but giving up on Jack and persuading Randall to be a substitute would at least have taken him aback and shown Jack in a different light.

[tpe]

Exactly how open was Jack about his relationships with his parents and quitting Ennis for Randall? They knew of Ennis AND Randall. Maybe he talked to his father about them in the context of "just friends" who were willing to help him whip the ranch into shape. I don't know.  We  do know from the Thanksgiving scene with LD, that Jack was capable of putting his foot down if he needed to. Maybe this is how he dealt with his father about bringing  one of these guys up. This maturer, older Jack may have more sway with the old man than we think. I wish we saw more  interaction between the two of them but I did'nt hear Twist Sr. say  to Ennis "not on your life" or  "it'll be a cold day in hell" or any other term indicating his refusal to allow it.  Maybe I'm wrong but he seemed more upset with Jack's inability to carry through on his promises to help him out , though his contempt for his son's lifestyle was obvious.... Just thinkin out loud. Thanks

I suspect something similar.  After all, marriage with Lureen had provided Jack with distance and financial independence.  The dynamic between father and don must have changed over the years, but I don't think there was ever a genuine understanding between the two.  The best description I could give is that of an uneasy truce.  Still, I suspect that Jack being Jack, he loved his father, in spite of everything.

Jack was never a person to give up so easily.  If he persisted in reaching out to Ennis (at least up until the very end), I am sure he persisted in reaching out to his father.

[tpe]

It occurs to  me that his father's continued contempt for him and what he saw as Jack's broken promises may have made Jack think again about Ennis. If his father despised him for making promises that he never kept, Jack saw Ennis as the cause of his doing that and Randall as the means of fulfilling them - if you think in terms of simply helping on the ranch I doubt whether John Twist would care who Jack brought as long as he was competent - maybe he was beginning to think that Ennis would never change and would never allow him either to turn up with the help he'd promised or start a life of their own together, but Randall would.

I also wonder how John Twist would have coped if he'd had to face Jack with helper in tow, keeping his promises so that his father could no longer laugh at him - if I read him right he'd probably have found fault with Randall for having learned about farming in an academic context rather than getting down and dirty on a farm.

As Jack said, there was no pleasing his father, but giving up on Jack and persuading Randall to be a substitute would at least have taken him aback and shown Jack in a different light.

I suspect that in John Twist's mind, Jack must have given up on Ennis -- at least given up on bringing him back to LF.  I suspect that this was his part of the reason he mentioned Jack bringing someone else back to the ranch -- as a kind of reproach to Ennis, and perhaps even as an act tinged with some malice.  He may have been disappointed with Jack for not fulfilling his intentions, but I still think that he said what he said in order to take a jab at Ennis.  Essentially, he told Ennis: my son has given up on you.

[aintfoolin]

Maybe Jack should have considered  divorcing and finding a place of his own whereever he wanted. This way he could have whoever he wanted come to visit him. I can see him with his own ranch. Ennis would have seen him trying and maybe come around sooner and stayed. Maybe independence along with communication was the key to snagging Ennis.I think Ennis repected self-sufficientness.
 Jack had options.

[tpe]

Maybe Jack should have considered  divorcing and finding a place of his own whereever he wanted. This way he could have whoever he wanted come to visit him. I can see him with his own ranch. Ennis would have seen him trying and maybe come around sooner and stayed. Maybe independence along with communication was the key to snagging Ennis.I think Ennis repected self-sufficientness.
 Jack had options.

I am sure Jack knew that moving back to LF would put himself closer to Ennis.  I suspect that this was part consolation, and part wish.  We really couldn't tell how his relationship with Randall would have developed if they were close to where Ennis lived.  Perhaps it was a perverse hope that remained in Jack -- that by moving back to LF with Randall, he can rouse Ennis to action.

[aintfoolin]

Jack had Lureen, Ennis, Randall, his dad, his son, and his in-laws to deal with. Not to mention a closed minded society, and his job.  It must have been overwhelming for him. Maybe taking a step back taking a deep breath ,and a little time to himself to asess his options would not have been a bad idea.I can't imagine the pressure on him.No wonder he spased out  on Ennis in the last meeting.

[tpe]

Jack had Lureen, Ennis, Randall, his dad, his son, and his in-laws to deal with. Not to mention a closed minded society, and his job.  It must have been overwhelming for him. Maybe taking a step back taking a deep breath ,and a little time to himself to asess his options would not have been a bad idea.I can't imagine the pressure on him.No wonder he spased out  on Ennis in the last meeting.

The point when Jack's hope was wearing thin -- it is at that point that I love him the most.

[lamusica]

I am sure Jack knew that moving back to LF would put himself closer to Ennis.  I suspect that this was part consolation, and part wish.  We really couldn't tell how his relationship with Randall would have developed if they were close to where Ennis lived.  Perhaps it was a perverse hope that remained in Jack -- that by moving back to LF with Randall, he can rouse Ennis to action.

This is a unique thought, tpe.  I like this idea.  I agree that Jack would do anything possible to get Ennis into his life on a more permanent, visible plane.  This little bit of suspected cunning fits right in there with his original plan of them living together. Jealousy often makes a person get moving.

[tpe]

This is a unique thought, tpe.  I like this idea.  I agree that Jack would do anything possible to get Ennis into his life on a more permanent, visible plane.  This little bit of suspected cunning fits right in there with his original plan of them living together. Jealousy often makes a person get moving.

lamusica, you expressed my thoughts exactly here.

Jealousy can be a powerful weapon.  After all, didn't Ennis threaten to kill Jack if he ever found out of "asll them things"? 

When one is at the end of one's hope, one will do anything, even if it means inciting the beloved to an uncontrollable and dangerous rage.  Perhaps Jack considered this as a last resort...

[Brokeback_1]

In my opinion, no, no way did Jack ditch Ennis. NO QUIT, as it was called during a legendary argument on another thread which got so learned, so vehement and just so...intense that Annie herself popped in to gaze in amazement roflmao.

I am constitutionally incapable of believing Jack twist could leave Ennis Delmar. He may have made 'arrangements' and all, yet if he hadn't been killed he would have been at Pine Creek in November. The Gods of Brokeback speaketh, NO QUIT is writ in tongues of flame on rockeths of granite! <g>

[NoReins]

In my opinion, no, no way did Jack ditch Ennis. NO QUIT, as it was called during a legendary argument on another thread which got so learned, so vehement and just so...intense that Annie herself popped in to gaze in amazement roflmao.

I am constitutionally incapable of believing Jack twist could leave Ennis Delmar. He may have made 'arrangements' and all, yet if he hadn't been killed he would have been at Pine Creek in November. The Gods of Brokeback speaketh, NO QUIT is writ in tongues of flame on rockeths of granite! <g>

 

[tpe]

I would certainly want to think that this was indeed the case.

But I would hazard to say that even if Jack did not show up in November, I think it would not have spelled the end.  Ennis would have showed up, and realizing that Jack was not coming, I suspect that he would not sit quietly and forget about it.  That would have spurred Ennis to search for Jack, and who know what could have happened had they confronted each other at LF...

[thunderwolf]

Hi guys,

I think it's fundamental to the story that you don't believe Jack every truly gave up on Ennis.

I think this is one of the reasons why the deleted scene with Jack, Randall and the mechanics didn't make it to the film - both to create ambiguity over Jack's death, and also to keep Jack's infidelity towards Ennis more unclear.

In either event, Jack had been at his parents in the spring, but left the shirts where they'd hung silently for 20 years. This means, that Jack maintained the symbol of their togetherness forever. To me, this means that despite Mexico, Randall or whatever else, that Jack's heart remained faithful to Ennis only.

The other bit that I like about the scene, is Jack's father. Much is said about his mother, but mainly the feeling towards the father is hostile. He's definitely an interesting character. There is homophobia here, unquestionably. But there is also a level of understanding that most people miss. The fact that he knows about Ennis and the other ranch neighbour is important. Why would you tell your homophobic father that you were leaving your wife and bringing another guy to come to 'lick the ranch back into shape'. If the father was that homophobic then he'd said 'no way'. When he recounts how Jack would say that he'd bring 'Ennis Del Mar' to his parents home, you get a sense when the father says Ennis name as if he's mimicing / mocking the dream like way Jack would talk about his lover.

Also, the father's reluctance to not let his son's ashes go to brokeback mountain also has a double meaning. On the one hand, he explains that Jack is going in the family plot suggests his disappointment, and even disgust that his son left his life with the heads in the clouds, and wanted something that went againt the wishes of the other people in his life. Also - and for me - this is the crucial bit....burying him in the family plot is important - it is Jack's father showing, that inspite of what his son was, what he'd done, and what he thought of him, he was still family. There's a sense of ownership and pride when you declare someone family.

[brokebacksoul]

Hi guys,

I think it's fundamental to the story that you don't believe Jack every truly gave up on Ennis.

I think this is one of the reasons why the deleted scene with Jack, Randall and the mechanics didn't make it to the film - both to create ambiguity over Jack's death, and also to keep Jack's infidelity towards Ennis more unclear.

In either event, Jack had been at his parents in the spring, but left the shirts where they'd hung silently for 20 years. This means, that Jack maintained the symbol of their togetherness forever. To me, this means that despite Mexico, Randall or whatever else, that Jack's heart remained faithful to Ennis only.

The other bit that I like about the scene, is Jack's father. Much is said about his mother, but mainly the feeling towards the father is hostile. He's definitely an interesting character. There is homophobia here, unquestionably. But there is also a level of understanding that most people miss. The fact that he knows about Ennis and the other ranch neighbour is important. Why would you tell your homophobic father that you were leaving your wife and bringing another guy to come to 'lick the ranch back into shape'. If the father was that homophobic then he'd said 'no way'. When he recounts how Jack would say that he'd bring 'Ennis Del Mar' to his parents home, you get a sense when the father says Ennis name as if he's mimicing / mocking the dream like way Jack would talk about his lover.

Also, the father's reluctance to not let his son's ashes go to brokeback mountain also has a double meaning. On the one hand, he explains that Jack is going in the family plot suggests his disappointment, and even disgust that his son left his life with the heads in the clouds, and wanted something that went againt the wishes of the other people in his life. Also - and for me - this is the crucial bit....burying him in the family plot is important - it is Jack's father showing, that inspite of what his son was, what he'd done, and what he thought of him, he was still family. There's a sense of ownership and pride when you declare someone family.

 
    I must admit that a vague thought like this had crossed my mind also, but in fact it has been "overlayed" by the stoic impression of old Mr. Twist and by the empathy (and sympathy) we all develop for Jack's mother ....
 
      Interesting point, though. 

   

[thunderwolf]

@brokebacksoul

Glad to know someone else thought the same. I don't always think that things should be taken so black and white (e.g. Jack's Pa = Bad, Jack's Ma = Good).

Jack's Pa spoke more, and, most of what he said was accurate - Jack did think he was too good to be buried in the family plot which was a symbol of why he left home and moved to Texas etc. And most of Jack's ideas did come to nothing and were 'wild notions'.

The mother just looks understanding, but says little. Although she does direct Ennis upstairs...

[Romeo164]

@thunderwolf

Very insightful. Jack's father kinda reminds me of my own father who is homophobic but makes an exception for me...as long as I don't talk about it too much.

[thunderwolf]

@thunderwolf

Very insightful. Jack's father kinda reminds me of my own father who is homophobic but makes an exception for me...as long as I don't talk about it too much.

Glad to hear Romeo164 that you have a level of understanding with your father :0)

I think a lot of people are gradually accepting of homosexual love, and it only remains the love that dare not speak its name (or whatever the quote is!) for straight people, who might be quite accepting of it, but don't necessarily want to talk about it.