Topic: Did Jack finally give up on Ennis? - possible spoilers

[bhebbe]

Here it goes for me:

Jack told us plain and clear: "I wish I knew...".  He is telling us he can't leave Ennis, ever, no way.  He stood there and took Ennis' threats and shoves without fighting back.  And he comforted Ennis even though Ennis at first was pretty clear he didn't want comforting.   This was Jack's clue to leave if he wanted, but he didn't. And finally, I keep going back to the beginning, he even stole Ennis' shirt off the mountain, and we all know what that means.

In between that first summer and the last meeting, well let's just say, Jack is a Saint.  A Saint with a lot of patience, spunk, and tenacity.  I'm not sure why it took me so long to realize this.

For me, in my dream, hate didn't win that early.  Actually, the last post card read:

"Got your card about November.  Make sure you get that cabin and get 9 or 10 days, Ennis.  We need to talk about how we are going to improve things."

The next post card in my dream, says: "You Bet".

I strongly believe, a long standing relationship between two men, is built not only on the connection, but also, if not more, on the spaces between them.  Those spaces --  in some places small and in others large, actually strengthens the connecting bonds.

[jimnick]

My Dear:

Please don't shed tears on our account.

We can't help it either, and  we want you to be happy!!!!

I have a merciful shoulder to cry on, you can share your tears.

Love

Jim

[rabjr1]

Jack knew Ennis loved him.  If he hadn't known he would not have been so very frustrated over it.  He knew, it didn't help, but he knew and he didn't die wondering if Ennis loved him.  He died without Ennis with him, propably wouldn't have died at all if Ennis had been with him, and that its the stone that Ennis must carry in his heart for the rest of his life.  But, Jack knew Ennis loved him and him alone.  Couldn't love someone for twenty years and not now it.

Jim thinks too much.

Ennis was taught by his father to strike first (re: (1) street scene outside the bar after Thanksgiving dinner with his ex-wife. (2) wrestling/fight scene with Jack on the Mountain.

I think that had they lived together Ennis would have shown to the world that they (Ennis & Jack) were not ones to f**k with.  Ennis would have hit first.

another thing:  Ennis was mad(?) upset(?) frustrated(?) when he arrives at camp and Jack tells him they got to "bring em down". Is Ennis mad because his time with Jack is now cut short by a month not because they are gonig to lose a month's pay?

[*Froggy*]

another thing:  Ennis was mad(?) upset(?) frustrated(?) when he arrives at camp and Jack tells him they got to "bring em down". Is Ennis mad because his time with Jack is now cut short by a month not because they are gonig to lose a month's pay?

Is Ennis mad because his time with Jack is now cut short

That's what I think it is all about...his subconscious took over!...Ennis probably doesn't understand his reaction, it is easier to blame it on losing a month's wages!

He did not understand why he was sick after Jack left either...It's later he understands!

[jimnick]

Of course he's mad that his time with Jack is being taken away.  Wouldn't you be mad too?  I mean... coulda spent another thirty nights in that with Jack, duhhh!

That would rip the hair right off of my a**!

Jim

[coguaro]

Ennis never express his feelings directly or with word but with actions...in different situations:

-   Ennis order soup (obviously for Jack.. we know that Ennis don't like soup)... an action for Jack
-   Ennis offer to go to sleep with sheep because of Jack didn't like it
-   when Jack tell him they got to bring them down, his violent reaction come from is heart..not for economic reasons: he realize that his dream is finishing and he will 
   return to his normal live (to Alma)
-   When Jack and Ennis separate, Ennis appears to be indifferent but after some step, he explode vomiting and crying

For that reasons I love so much Ennis... it is a rare quality to be so pure, sincere, natural.... the nature of his feelings, the nature of his love..are precious to me; I cant tolerate that he didn't have a happy live  :-[
Coguaro

[jimnick]

Yep!

Jim

[francis.shim]

Hey everybody!

I love reading all your posts... even the spoilers!

I have only seen the movie and I am dying to read the original book and the screenplay translation so please take my response in that context.

My answer to this thread's question is simply: no.

Jack tried and tried to give up on Ennis... but *everything* conspired against giving Jack his most sought-after desire... not so much Ennis, but the *LOVE* he experienced on Brokeback Mountain with Ennis.

Jack's last ditch attempt with the rancher at the end came to a devestating end... no, Jack was murdered by forces that kept Jack and Ennis apart... the same forces that made Ennis so fearful of their relationship.  Jack was even denied the possibility of anything with the rancher.  It was a brutal end to someone whose only crime was being as open as it was possible in such a harsh environment.

Yet, as I ponder the movie more... and witness the beauty of the "shirts"... I saw a redemption for both Jack and Ennis.  As brutal as those forces were that took Jack's life away... no, those forces could not take Jack's love away from Ennis... no, Jack never did finally give up on Ennis... no, Ennis finally gave in to Jack's love.

It was time for Ennis to finally put his shirt over Jack's shirt... it was finally time for Ennis to embrace Jack again.  It was time...

                            "Jack, I swear..."

Man... I cry now.

Frank

[bhebbe]

Because of Jack...

I think Ennis will die a very happy man.  He loves his children, raising stock, and he likes his loads light.  I don't mistake that for a bad life.  I have a big load, and make too much, and wonder if I'm having the best life I can.

Jack and the situation taught Ennis a whole lot about life. A large number of people go a whole lifetime without finding their true love and soul mate.  I think divorce rates kind-of point to that. 

For what Ennis started with, I think he is the smartest man I know.  I always measure a man by where he came from.  He always knew Jack was his soul mate and kindled the relationship for twenty years the best he could.  He was on the brink of making major changes.  Jack's spirit lives on and keeps Ennis going.

(Sorry for being slightly off topic, I couldn't let this response go unrelated to the comment above (I cant tolerate that he didn't have a happy live.)

[coguaro]

Good reflection...of course, Jack give more than a relation to Ennis, he give him a instruction on live.

You raise my mind

coguaro

[rikcub]

Do I want to believe it?  NO.  Do I think so...yes I do.  Here is why...trace Jacks facial expressions over time...first when leaving BBM after being paid by Aguirre he asks Ennis about "next year"...his face is full of love, hope, and innocence.  Next...when he is driving away from WY after learning that Ennis's divorce doesnt mean they will be together he is devastated.  Finally after their last time together, as Ennis leaves you can read the sadness but resignation on his face.  He has realized that no matter how much he loves Ennis it just can't be what he wants.  With accumlated hurt, over time, people do move on and that is what Jack had to do.  Also rememer this, by the time he dies Jack is 39...he is middle aged and that gives him a whole new outlook on life.  With wisdom we all realize that their are people and things we cannot change...and we also look at how we want to spend the rest of our own lives.  Jack let go and moved on because he had to.....with all that said I still think that he would have returned to Ennis in a heartbeat...he didn't stop loving him at all...just moved on by lack of choice. :'(

[Toadily]

I do think he tried to move on, but as Jack's Dad said he talked of bringing this guy up to his ranch but it didn't happen, so I suspect the replacement relationshiop didn't last. So he tried but it didn't work, he missed Ennis too much I think.


I also noted in my last viewing that dance scene where he is with the rancher and his wife is more significant than it appears, the exchange between Lureen and jack is tense, she makes the crack about men never dancing with their wives (in contrast to the first time they met when he danced with her very romantically) and then Jacks asks the GUEST to dance then Lureen sits back in her seat lookikn a bit annoyed.  it was a telling moment, that marriage is over, Ennis or not.  It's gone from convenient to painful I think.

[companyatgarden]

In my mind, Jack had never truly given up on Ennis. Yes, there were situations where he cheated on Ennis. However, they appeared more to be temporary physical reliefs or at most, attempts to quit Ennis (like relationships with the neighbor). After all the encounters, Jack still went back to Ennis every year for the trysts. I bet, Jack would have gone back to Ennis even if he should have had a chance to ranch with his neighbor together so long as Ennis, one day, should want to be together with him.  Finally, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain was the best proof how much Jack cherished his relationship with Ennis, how much love he had towards Ennis and how much he wanted to be with Ennis.

[jimnick]

In my mind, Jack had never truly given up on Ennis. Yes, there were situations where he cheated on Ennis. However, they appeared more to be temporary physical reliefs or at most, attempts to quit Ennis (like relationships with the neighbor). After all the encounters, Jack still went back to Ennis every year for the trysts. I bet, Jack would have gone back to Ennis even if he should have had a chance to ranch with his neighbor together so long as Ennis, one day, should want to be together with him.  Finally, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain was the best proof how much Jack cherished his relationship with Ennis, how much love he had towards Ennis and how much he wanted to be with Ennis.

Well, of course!  You have hit on it exactly!  Jack's wishes to be eternally on Brokeback Mountain; the happiest he ever was in his whole life says that he never stopped loving Ennis and never gave up hope.

Jack + Ennis

Jim

[rabjr1]

Maybe Jack needed just needed to be held by someone, have their arms  around him like in the campfire scene with Ennis that's why he went to Mexico.  I don't think we always want sex as much as we want affection. 

[jimnick]

Maybe Jack needed just needed to be held by someone, have their arms  around him like in the campfire scene with Ennis that's why he went to Mexico.  I don't think we always want sex as much as we want affection. 

Yeah, that human touch. Got to have it!

Jim

[rabjr1]

In my mind, Jack had never truly given up on Ennis. Yes, there were situations where he cheated on Ennis. However, they appeared more to be temporary physical reliefs or at most, attempts to quit Ennis (like relationships with the neighbor). After all the encounters, Jack still went back to Ennis every year for the trysts. I bet, Jack would have gone back to Ennis even if he should have had a chance to ranch with his neighbor together so long as Ennis, one day, should want to be together with him.  Finally, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain was the best proof how much Jack cherished his relationship with Ennis, how much love he had towards Ennis and how much he wanted to be with Ennis.

Well, of course!  You have hit on it exactly!  Jack's wishes to be eternally on Brokeback Mountain; the happiest he ever was in his whole life says that he never stopped loving Ennis and never gave up hope.


Of course you're right.   He wanted his ashes up on Brokeback Mountain.  So would I and I would hope that one day they wouldn't be alone.

Jack + Ennis

Jim

[MidtownFreak]

Wow, stickler.. that's is so true.  :'(

But, If at one final moment of comfort, the "I swear" line helps balance the lost. In my reasoning, Ennis only said that line because he knew Jack was listening... from Heaven.

[francis.shim]

Do I want to believe it?  NO.  Do I think so...yes I do.  Here is why...trace Jacks facial expressions over time...first when leaving BBM after being paid by Aguirre he asks Ennis about "next year"...his face is full of love, hope, and innocence.  Next...when he is driving away from WY after learning that Ennis's divorce doesnt mean they will be together he is devastated.  Finally after their last time together, as Ennis leaves you can read the sadness but resignation on his face.  He has realized that no matter how much he loves Ennis it just can't be what he wants.  With accumlated hurt, over time, people do move on and that is what Jack had to do.  Also rememer this, by the time he dies Jack is 39...he is middle aged and that gives him a whole new outlook on life.  With wisdom we all realize that their are people and things we cannot change...and we also look at how we want to spend the rest of our own lives.  Jack let go and moved on because he had to.....with all that said I still think that he would have returned to Ennis in a heartbeat...he didn't stop loving him at all...just moved on by lack of choice. :'(

I thought about what you said, but I realized that in some ways it really depends on how you look at "moving on" versus "giving up".  Maybe Jack did move on, but he sure didn't give up on Ennis.  If Jack had given up on Ennis, Ennis would not have found the shirts... Ennis' shirt tucked neatly into Jack's shirt as if to say "I will never let you go.".  Yeah, he did move on, but it just doesn't seem like he actually gave up on Ennis.

... also see my post in the "Jack Twist broke my heart" thread...

Frank

[romeshvr]

I have to agree with you Fank.  After the confrontation in spring Jack went to his parents for few days visit.  If he was totally over Ennis maybe he could have got rid of the shirts then.  Jack had ample opportunity.  I think I would do that because the shirts wouldn't mean anything to me.

"Then this spring he’s got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass".

From this passage it is not clear the sex of the ranch neighbour.  We automatically assume it was Randall, but what if it was the Randall's wife just like how Jack said he is seeing neighbour rancher’s wife?  Also, when Jack's father says he's goin a split up with his wife and come back, is he taking about Jack or Randall?  It is unclear in the movie and in the short story.  The problem with he movie is it is very suggestive, especially with that scene where Randall and Jack sitting next to each other.

My take is Jack would do anything for Ennis.  I think he even married Laureen for her money maybe in the hopes of taking Ennis away from Wyoming (even though Jack got married before the reunion – did you see the look of sadness whey Jack and Laureen were dancing the first time...oh my).  Maybe Jack thought he could impress Ennis with it.  Therefore, I believe he would have moved closer to Ennis this way they see more of each other?  One way was to split with his wife and come back home with a new woman???  If Jack had the intention of ending it with Ennis he would have to have thought about it before he said he missed Ennis so much that he hardly couldn’t stand it sometimes (writing from my memory).  Also, in the last meeting Jack asks Ennis how he has not found any woman to marry? Maybe Jack is wondering what is going on and if Ennis is waiting for him???

I think the movie is kind of misleading us to believe that Jack took up with neighbour rancer, Randell as per that scene where they are sitting together.  Annie I think wrote in a way so the reader draw their own conclusion.

Love is a strange thing.  It makes on do unreliable things to be with the one we truly love.

[francis.shim]

I have to agree with you Fank.  After the confrontation in spring Jack went to his parents for few days visit.  If he was totally over Ennis maybe he could have got rid of the shirts then.  Jack had ample opportunity.  I think I would do that because the shirts wouldn't mean anything to me.

"Then this spring he’s got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass".

From this passage it is not clear the sex of the ranch neighbour.  We automatically assume it was Randall, but what if it was the Randall's wife just like how Jack said he is seeing neighbour rancher’s wife?  Also, when Jack's father says he's goin a split up with his wife and come back, is he taking about Jack or Randall?  It is unclear in the movie and in the short story.  The problem with he movie is it is very suggestive, especially with that scene where Randall and Jack sitting next to each other.

My take is Jack would do anything for Ennis.  I think he even married Laureen for her money maybe in the hopes of taking Ennis away from Wyoming (even though Jack got married before the reunion – did you see the look of sadness whey Jack and Laureen were dancing the first time...oh my).  Maybe Jack thought he could impress Ennis with it.  Therefore, I believe he would have moved closer to Ennis this way they see more of each other?  One way was to split with his wife and come back home with a new woman???  If Jack had the intention of ending it with Ennis he would have to have thought about it before he said he missed Ennis so much that he hardly couldn’t stand it sometimes (writing from my memory).  Also, in the last meeting Jack asks Ennis how he has not found any woman to marry? Maybe Jack is wondering what is going on and if Ennis is waiting for him???

I think the movie is kind of misleading us to believe that Jack took up with neighbour rancer, Randell as per that scene where they are sitting together.  Annie I think wrote in a way so the reader draw their own conclusion.

Love is a strange thing.  It makes on do unreliable things to be with the one we truly love.

Hmmm... yes, there are many places where we can draw our own conclusion as to the character's hidden intents, but I believe that the clues as to what those intents were, especially in a work of fiction, is normally right there in the story.  So regardless of whether it was the wife of Randall or Randall himself, it does not change the fact that the shirts were still in Jack's little hidden treasure trove... so I think the story leads us to believe that the only sure thing is Jack's "sure thing" with Ennis.... he still loved Ennis.... however, with regards to whether it was Randall or Randall's wife, if we look at the subject matter of the entire story, it is about that deep love; so all I can say is that whatever Jack has with Randall or Randall's wife must be a very pale comparison indeed... it becomes incidental.

He sure did look a little sad with Lureen... and if memory serves me right, didn't he try to buy a drink for a guy in a movie scene before Lureen ever entered the picture? (no pun intended)  It seemed to me that Jack was looking every which way to duplicate *Ennis* and he became resigned when Lureen seemed interested in him.  It just still ain't Ennis.

Your theory about Jack having an ulterior motive as to connect up with Randall's wife (after all the divorcin' and stuff) to go home to "his daddy's ranch" to satisfy his homophobic father and then to possibly bring Ennis in as a ranch hand so that they can be together seems very intriguing.  But I would have to ask would Ennis go for that?  Jack, knew how Ennis valued his relationship with Alma and his daughters.  So if Jack abandons Lureen and his son... I think it would have to be because he could not handle a loveless family anymore and tried to duplicate *Ennis* again.  Another thing, that Ennis loved about Jack was his openess and directness.  I am not sure, but I think that Jack being the Jack that we and Ennis fell in love with, may have done the very thing that got Jack killed... he tried to openly and directly connect up with Randall.  As hard as I find that... it seems to fit.... I know, it is harst, but remember the "flash" in Ennis' head as he listened to Lureen non-chalantly droned about how Jack died...

Brutal.

Frank

[stephan]

Hi everyone,
like Jim's and others', my answer is Jack + Ennis 4ever  :D

Some good thoughts on this thread: the 2 shirts in Jack's room, his wish to have his ashes at Brokeback, Jack being strongly tempted to conclude that Ennis didn't love him enough to sacrifice his environment, why didn't he move closer to Ennis ?

Jack was portrayed as somewhat ambitious. His marriage to Lureen smacks of Opportunity. He acts on his desires. His wildest dreams were for him and Ennis. But Ennis was the reins on those dreams. He'd bragged to Ennis that no filly ever threw him off - which wasn't exactly true. Ennis's stuck-in-the-mud attitude infuriated him.

Ennis realises the pain is killing him, says he has nothing, is nothing. Partly because Jack is upsetting him talking about quitting him, but also because he can't bring himself to be different, and now I'm crying my eyes out  :'(
Stephan

[tpe]

Hi everyone,
like Jim's and others', my answer is Jack + Ennis 4ever  :D

Some good thoughts on this thread: the 2 shirts in Jack's room, his wish to have his ashes at Brokeback, Jack being strongly tempted to conclude that Ennis didn't love him enough to sacrifice his environment, why didn't he move closer to Ennis ?

Jack was portrayed as somewhat ambitious. His marriage to Lureen smacks of Opportunity. He acts on his desires. His wildest dreams were for him and Ennis. But Ennis was the reins on those dreams. He'd bragged to Ennis that no filly ever threw him off - which wasn't exactly true. Ennis's stuck-in-the-mud attitude infuriated him.

Ennis realises the pain is killing him, says he has nothing, is nothing. Partly because Jack is upsetting him talking about quitting him, but also because he can't bring himself to be different, and now I'm crying my eyes out  :'(
Stephan

This is a very good point.  Ennis' stuck-in-the-mud attitude was a constant source of frustration and irritation for Jack.

[stickler]

"Some good thoughts on this thread: the 2 shirts in Jack's room, his wish to have his ashes at Brokeback, Jack being strongly tempted to conclude that Ennis didn't love him enough to sacrifice his environment, why didn't he move closer to Ennis ?"


Yeah .. I think Jack was very much in love with Ennis throughout the whole story and it seems to me that he was trying to force himself to move on at the end ... despite his continued love for Ennis. Their love was so deep and yet they never really expressed it to one another vocally ...  :-[

[alicat]

My take is that Ennis loved Jack as much, if not more than Jack loved Ennis - Ennis was just unable to articulate his love in the same way.  Notice it was always Jack who verbally expressed his love and longing: 'I miss you so much sometimes I can hardly stand it'.'.you don't know how bad it gets', and his wish (expressed more than once) for them to have a ranch together.  But I do feel that Ennis, in his way, expresses his love - when he reacts in anger to others, i.e getting in fights, and when he is retching with sadness after their parting/the jealousy he exhibits when Jack talks of having been to Mexico.  I think Jack was fully cognisant of this, even on their last meeting and this knowledge meant he could never give up on Ennis.  Even he had not died, I feel they would've carried on as they were forever - or at least until Ennis has made his mind up to act on his feelings and make a life with Jack, which I feel would've happened at some point in the future. 

[stephan]

But I do feel that Ennis, in his way, expresses his love - when he reacts in anger to others, i.e getting in fights, and when he is retching with sadness after their parting/the jealousy he exhibits when Jack talks of having been to Mexico.  I think Jack was fully cognisant of this, even on their last meeting and this knowledge meant he could never give up on Ennis.

I agree with you there, alicat. All those clues, but did Jack really catch on ? He was looking for other clues, like Ennis promising to see him again before November. Sometimes, no matter how deep your love runs, you can't see the forest for the trees.
Stephan

[AnitaSmith]

Yes. Yes, I believe that Jack simply couldn't endure life without Ennis.  They were getting on in age and Jack had indicated that a couple of "high altitude fu*ks" were simply not enough.  I don't think that Jack made a conscious decision to end his life, or anything like that.  But when you are living life heartbroken and depressed, you may tend to be less careful with your safety.  A "twist" of fate.

[stephan]

Two other clues, perhaps : at the last argument, when Ennis collapses on the ground, he and Jack struggle and then Ennis is clinging onto Jack for dear life (btw, I think I heard him say "I can't stand it"). I think that even if Jack had already decided he was going to try to give up on Ennis, that incident would have changed his mind.
Secondly, if Jack was giving up, he would have told Ennis so. But Ennis writes that card which is later returned marked "deceased". He wouldn't have written if Jack had given up.
Stephan

[jimnick]

Jack can not give up on Ennis.  Wouldn't, even if he knew how to quit him.  They are part of eachother.  Inseparable.  One can not live without his own heart.  They were miserable without eachother, and they never had enough time together. 

Ennis didn't tell Jack that he couldn't get away in August until they were packed and leaving because he didn't want to think about it in the midst of their being together.  It would have made Jack sad and there would be time for sadness, ...later, when they were apart.

Jack loved Ennis with his whole heart, there was never anyone else nor ever would be anyone else in Jack's heart.

Jack loves Ennis forever

Jim

[stephan]

Jack can not give up on Ennis.  Wouldn't, even if he knew how to quit him.  They are part of eachother.  Inseparable.  One can not live without his own heart.  They were miserable without eachother, and they never had enough time together. 
Jack loved Ennis with his whole heart, there was never anyone else nor ever would be anyone else in Jack's heart.
Jack loves Ennis forever
Jim

My feelings exactly. Stephan