Author Topic: a deep hurt (Read 11450 times)

jackie62 · « **on:** Mar 30, 2006, 04:15 PM »

Last viewing got me thinking---

What would Ennis have done if things had gone differently , after Jack drives all those miles at the time of his divorce. After his deep hurt and dissappointment --- and maybe realisation that Ennis couldn't change, what if Jack had decided to really test Ennis and not meet him "next month "as he'd said when leaving??? Would Ennis have come looking???

tpe · « **Reply #1 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 04:26 PM »

I believe Ennis would have come looking for him. I feel I know this is Ennis.

He shall be faithful unto death.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #2 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 04:50 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 30, 2006, 04:26 PM

I believe Ennis would have come looking for him. I feel I know this is Ennis.

He shall be faithful unto death.

Yeah, but tpe, aren't you the one who told me Ennis was so in love with Jack that was the reason he collapsed in the alley after they came down from the mountain? If he was so in love then, why didn't he just send a "hello" letter to Jack at Jack's parent's home?

Why would he look for him this time? Maybe he would just think Jack was angry because he drove all that way only to have Ennis send him away.

tpe · « **Reply #3 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 05:00 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 30, 2006, 04:50 PM

Quote from: tpe on Mar 30, 2006, 04:26 PM
I believe Ennis would have come looking for him. I feel I know this is Ennis.

He shall be faithful unto death.

Yeah, but tpe, aren't you the one who told me Ennis was so in love with Jack that was the reason he collapsed in the alley after they came down from the mountain? If he was so in love then, why didn't he just send a "hello" letter to Jack at Jack's parent's home?

Why would he look for him this time? Maybe he would just think Jack was angry because he drove all that way only to have Ennis send him away.

I anticipated that.

He did not communicate because he thought he could forget the past (and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil...). When they had the reunion after 4 years and exchanged that kiss, Ennis must have realized that he needed Jack in his life -- even if just a few times a year.

He happily kept the fishing trip commitments after this.

Finally, remember that the last postcard was sent by Ennis. Jack was dead but he did not know then. So, thinking he was still alive and angry, he sent the postcard about the November meeting.

Once Ennis realized how much he loved Jack after the 4 years, there could be no turning back.

From there, he shall be faithful unto death.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #4 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 05:19 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Mar 30, 2006, 05:00 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 30, 2006, 04:50 PM
Quote from: tpe on Mar 30, 2006, 04:26 PM
I believe Ennis would have come looking for him. I feel I know this is Ennis.

He shall be faithful unto death.

Yeah, but tpe, aren't you the one who told me Ennis was so in love with Jack that was the reason he collapsed in the alley after they came down from the mountain? If he was so in love then, why didn't he just send a "hello" letter to Jack at Jack's parent's home?

Why would he look for him this time? Maybe he would just think Jack was angry because he drove all that way only to have Ennis send him away.

I anticipated that.

He did not communicate because he thought he could forget the past (and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil...). When they had the reunion after 4 years and exchanged that kiss, Ennis must have realized that he needed Jack in his life -- even if just a few times a year.

He happily kept the fishing trip commitments after this.

Finally, remember that the last postcard was sent by Ennis. Jack was dead but he did not know then. So, thinking he was still alive and angry, he sent the postcard about the November meeting.

Once Ennis realized how much he loved Jack after the 4 years, there could be no turning back.

From there, he shall be faithful unto death.

Ok tpe. I'll give up.

tpe · « **Reply #5 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 05:24 PM »

Apologies Patriot1. I know I should have explained myself better in that first post...

BBBOY · « **Reply #6 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 06:13 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 30, 2006, 05:19 PM

Quote from: tpe on Mar 30, 2006, 05:00 PM
Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 30, 2006, 04:50 PM
Quote from: tpe on Mar 30, 2006, 04:26 PM
I believe Ennis would have come looking for him. I feel I know this is Ennis.

He shall be faithful unto death.

Yeah, but tpe, aren't you the one who told me Ennis was so in love with Jack that was the reason he collapsed in the alley after they came down from the mountain? If he was so in love then, why didn't he just send a "hello" letter to Jack at Jack's parent's home?

Why would he look for him this time? Maybe he would just think Jack was angry because he drove all that way only to have Ennis send him away.

I anticipated that.

He did not communicate because he thought he could forget the past (and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil...). When they had the reunion after 4 years and exchanged that kiss, Ennis must have realized that he needed Jack in his life -- even if just a few times a year.

He happily kept the fishing trip commitments after this.

Finally, remember that the last postcard was sent by Ennis. Jack was dead but he did not know then. So, thinking he was still alive and angry, he sent the postcard about the November meeting.

Once Ennis realized how much he loved Jack after the 4 years, there could be no turning back.

From there, he shall be faithful unto death.

Ok tpe. I'll give up.

Great exchange guys, Patriot1 ya got me laughing here with the emoticon. Think I'll steal it. hehehehehe

dr bill · « **Reply #7 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 07:23 PM »

I think Ennis would have gone searching for Jack...wherever that would be. I don't think Jack could stay away from Ennis though. They both had it bad for one another. I think it "killed" Ennis when they went their separate ways in the beginning. I think he wanted to ask Jack...so what are we going to do now? Thinking about this gets me all emotional all over again.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #8 on:** Mar 30, 2006, 08:33 PM »

I think Ennis would have searched for Jack or made a phone call or something. I think Ennis would have thought something had happened to Jack and that would have made him search. I can't see Jack doing that though, his love and his hope were too strong to miss an opportunity with Ennis.

jackie62 · « **Reply #9 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 04:46 AM »

Thanks so much for your thoughts. Thanks especially to Tpe who's thoughts on the time after the mountain I agree so much with.
I also think that one of the reasons Jack first seems more accepting of being told they're comimg down the mountain, is that he doesn't believe at that stage they won't see each other again --- this happens after the fight. Ennis doesn't pursue him for 2 reasons ,I think, 1 = the punch and 2= he has no idea what the hell has hit emotionally him so deeply . I also think the homophobic side of him comes out.

Back to after the divorce.

I see this time as 1 of the keys times in their life together --- after the hurt Jack resigns himself to getting some of his needs met in Mexico. But I also think there is a death of part of the dream for Jack --- maybe he'd rationalised Ennis not choosing to be with him because he had to stay in the family unit and raise the girls.

But now Ennis lives alone --- so why can't he go further? I always sense Jack having to hold back on letting his hurt/anger show completely because he's scared it will push Ennis away. I do wonder what would have happened if he'd put it on the line then.

I have a fantasy of Jack staying away , Ennis coming looking for him and a" happy ever after"---- but it is only a dream!!!!

My feelings are that after this time together and the depth of feeling between them ,Ennis couldn't have let him go --- i don't know how / what he would have done but he would have gone looking for him. I feel sure of that --- but I don't think Jack was sure . Ennis made many sacrifices to be with Jack but I believe Jack didn't have confidence that Ennis would seek him out. Yet he did in the end, with the final postcard.

proulxfan · « **Reply #10 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 06:55 AM »

The notion of what would Ennis do if...?-had never occured to me, but now that the question has been raised, I have to say I think you're right, that Ennis ultimately would have no choice but to seek Jack out. Interesting twist, if you'll excuse that pun

. Also agree that Jack has had to hold back on expressing his frustration and disappointment over the years for fear of driving Ennis away-Annie says as much during her description of their final confrontation, "all the things unsaid and now unsayable..." Additionally, I think Jack changes the gender of the rancher down in Texas when he is relating the story of his extra-marital affair, both to forestall Ennis's jealousy, but also to defer to Ennis's homopobia. On some level Jack is aware of the depth of the denial that Ennis has constructed in order to avoid facing the truth about himself and his relationship to Jack, and their relationship is always at risk because of this.
But I think there is some ambiguity regarding the postcards, and forgive me if this has already been covered elsewhere, but I believe Ennis has written to Jack intermittently through the years in order to plan or confirm their various "fishing trips", so that final one that comes back marked "deceased" does not represent a breakthrough in that regard.

tpe · « **Reply #11 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 07:29 AM »

I agree mostly with proulxfan. The last postcard is certainly not a breakthrough, as there was one other earlier instance where Ennis wrote to Jack (during the divorce). But I think it does not change the central contention that the last postcard clearly demonstrates: that Ennis could be proactive in his relationship with Jack. He did not just sit around waiting for his lover to make the initial gesture. When he clearly heard no word from Jack (as in the last postcard), he himself sent a letter to confirm the November meeting.

jackie62 brought up an issue I had always thought about. Perhaps if Jack had 'tested' Ennis earlier, Ennis could have 'awakened' to how truly deep and necessary his love for Jack was -- enough to make him come to the realization that he eventiually did at the end of the movie. After all, his final, albeit belated. realization came with Jack's death -- the temporal loss of the true great love of his life. Perhaps the shock of a threatened rupture earlier on could have jolted Ennis into a similar realization when Jack was still alive?

proulxfan · « **Reply #12 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 08:06 AM »

That idea of an earlier-on "threatened rupture" would make for a great fan fiction. Anyone up for writing a screenplay???

tpe · « **Reply #13 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 08:24 AM »

Quote from: proulxfan on Mar 31, 2006, 08:06 AM

That idea of an earlier-on "threatened rupture" would make for a great fan fiction. Anyone up for writing a screenplay???

God, I'm afraid anything attempted will fall short of the current one!

I pass. I don't have sufficient courage!

proulxfan · « **Reply #14 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 08:33 AM »

Well, for starters, don't try and measure any attempt at an alternative against the original. That almost guarantees failure. But the"testing" idea is intriguing, and I have enjoyed reading some of the other fictions that BBM has generated. They don't come close to the original, but can be enjoyable to read in their own right.

tpe · « **Reply #15 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 08:39 AM »

Perhaps there are already some in the body of BBM fanfiction. We should check...

But if anyone is interested in doing this here, I am definitely interested in reading it.

Stephen · « **Reply #16 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 08:41 AM »

nor would I! The whole post card issue has been discussed on another thread, but it does have fascinating implications. As to the potential of an "earlier threatened rupture", I think it would not have made a dramatic, ultimate difference; Ennis' phobias, fears, would have continued to compromise Jack's desire for a live-in relationship; and of course if we wonder what would happen "if......" it's fun to conjecture based on how we perceive the characters, but we would ultimately change the story, lose its tragic essence, and thus its innate power!

Mars · « **Reply #17 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 08:50 AM »

Yes,indeed: the intimate strenght of BBM's plot is just its tragical ending: a love accomplishment impossibility.
Forever.....

tpe · « **Reply #18 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 08:54 AM »

I am a sucker for tragedy. I pray not in real life...

davidgray624 · « **Reply #19 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 02:38 PM »

What an interesting topic. I definitely think that Ennis would have gone looking for Jack. maybe not right away , but he would have looked for him if jack didnt' come to visit him.

and i think this IS proved by the fact that Ennis sent Jack a postcard and ENnis called right away when he heard that Jack had passed away... :'(

tpe · « **Reply #20 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 03:21 PM »

davidgray624, for some reason, I also think he would have delayed. I don't know why. Perhaps I think this is in Ennis's nature?

rikcub · « **Reply #21 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 09:59 PM »

Quote from: jackie62 on Mar 30, 2006, 04:15 PM

Last viewing got me thinking---

What would Ennis have done if things had gone differently , after Jack drives all those miles at the time of his divorce. After his deep hurt and dissappointment --- and maybe realisation that Ennis couldn't change, what if Jack had decided to really test Ennis and not meet him "next month "as he'd said when leaving??? Would Ennis have come looking???

At this point...yes he would have. I base that solely on this fact...the last postcard was sent by Ennis...not Jack. After the initial four year absence I think Ennis was hooked...he didn't have to be too active in pursuing the relationship...Jack did all that...but if Jack hadn't I think Ennis would have been compelled to have done it himself...He was in love.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #22 on:** Mar 31, 2006, 10:50 PM »

Quote from: rikcub on Mar 31, 2006, 09:59 PM

At this point...yes he would have. I base that solely on this fact...the last postcard was sent by Ennis...not Jack.

The last time Ennis and Jack were together Ennis just told Jack it would be sometime in November before he could get off again. Ennis HAD to send the card to tell Jack when and where.

Do you think if Ennis had told Jack when and where the last time they were together he would then have sent the card as a reminder?

Quote from: rikcub

After the initial four year absence I think Ennis was hooked...he didn't have to be too active in pursuing the relationship...Jack did all that...

I don't know that I would agree with that. Everything semed to depend on when Ennis could get off work. Jack, it seemed, seeing his wife owned the business, could get off just about any time. So I would think it was Ennis that was sending the cards telling Jack when he could get off.

It would have been interesting to see what Ennis would have done when Jack didn't show up in November had he not died. Jack had no intentions of showing up. He had started a life with Randall. It was so far along that Jack told his father, of all people, he and Randall were moving up there. Ennis was out of the picture.

jackie62 · « **Reply #23 on:** Apr 01, 2006, 11:26 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 31, 2006, 10:50 PM

Quote from: rikcub on Mar 31, 2006, 09:59 PM
At this point...yes he would have. I base that solely on this fact...the last postcard was sent by Ennis...not Jack.

The last time Ennis and Jack were together Ennis just told Jack it would be sometime in November before he could get off again. Ennis HAD to send the card to tell Jack when and where.

Do you think if Ennis had told Jack when and where the last time they were together he would then have sent the card as a reminder?

Quote from: rikcub
After the initial four year absence I think Ennis was hooked...he didn't have to be too active in pursuing the relationship...Jack did all that...

I don't know that I would agree with that. Everything seemed to depend on when Ennis could get off work. Jack, it seemed, seeing his wife owned the business, could get off just about any time. So I would think it was Ennis that was sending the cards telling Jack when he could get off.

It would have been interesting to see what Ennis would have done when Jack didn't show up in November had he not died. Jack had no intentions of showing up. He had started a life with Randall. It was so far along that Jack told his father, of all people, he and Randall were moving up there. Ennis was out of the picture.

I think that if Jack hadn't shown up in November and Jack had started some kind of life with Randall ,I still don't believe it would have been the end. ( I don't think Jack and Randall in Lightning flats was a real option --- for one can't see John Twist accepting it --- I see it more as a dream of Jack's with Ennis central to that, but I could see him going elsewhere with Randall).

I think if Jack had stared a life with Randall ,it was for a number of reasons --- 1- the recognition of the needs Ennis refused to meet, 2 - frustration with his straight- jacket straight life ,3 - and, I think most importantly, he may have thought this could end this pain for both of them.

But if he stayed away several things could have happened - none good

1 Ennis would eventually have come looking and, on finding Randall ,violence would have been inevitable.
2 Ennis found out about Randall and rejected everything in disgust and bitterness. Jack knowing Ennis's disgust.
3 Jack and Randall would have been miserable --- when would Jack have forgiven Randall for not being Ennis? He would have gone looking again .

I personally think when Jack talked to his parents re the move and Randall, he was trying one last time to find a way that could work--- to imagine the future could be better. I think he knew it was no good -- as Annie Proulx said at the emotional denouement ---"nothing ended/resolved" . When he went back to Texas, I think he was lost and began to behave recklessly , leading to his death.

If the love of your life is the only thing that makes you feel alive, and it can't give you what you need --- imitation is a waste. Jack and Ennis --- neither could have "let the other be " in this life or the next.

I guess the above is linking to the topic ...."what if Jack hadn't died ....."

??