Author Topic: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread  (Read 18609 times)

Offline *Froggy*

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Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« on: Jan 21, 2006, 11:16 PM »
 Found this on IMDb, and flashframe777 allowed me to post it here:

This thread is about the use of symbology used in Brokeback Mountain.

1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden. .... Ok so maybe not fav (would need an accurate reference for Sitaram, anyone?)...regarding the bible, i'm pretty sure we can find a few lamb here and there, as well as sheep! ;D

2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence.

3) Sheep - society, as in 'following like sheep', Jack & Ennis ride the herd, outside of it, not a part of it.

4) dead sheep - gutted, hollowed out - sheep's clothing, hiding something that isn't what it seems

5) Brokeback - the last straw, what burdens

6) colors - blue, red, black and lack of color and what they represent

7) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise; Ennis Del Mar - island of the sea; Signal - warning or sign; Riverton - moving slowly, winding past, flow, Lightning Flat - as in struck by lightning

8.) coyotes - tricksters gods, teaching lessons by tricking - not always a pleasant experience

9) flattened harmonica - not harmonic, discord

10) beans = staple/mundane, elk/wild game = speaks for itself

11) black/white hats - experienced/no experience, guileless/earthy

12) methodist/pentecost - methodists have a system, things are done right a certain way/The Pentecost refers to the day wherin the descent of the Holy Spirit —a transformative and profound experience

just a start...please add more!!!

x Froggy
« Last Edit: Jan 21, 2006, 11:50 PM by frog123 »
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Offline Sitaram

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #1 on: Jan 21, 2006, 11:33 PM »
Where is there a Biblical verse to substantiate a notion that the sheep is Adam's favorite animal?   

With all due respect, I must say that I do not remember such a thing.

I do remember in Genesis, that God sees that Adam is alone, and this is not good, so God presents to Adam each animal, that Adam might choose a helper/companion, but Adam finds none that are satisfactory. Only then does God cause Adam to fall into a sleep and creates Eve from a rib.   Note that there are two creation accounts in Genesis.  The first account merely says that God created all creatures male and female, and created humans in his own likeness and image (in the Greek Septuagint, this translates KAT' EIKONA sin kai OMOIOSIN"   so we may notice the word IKON, that the human is an icon of God.  We may conclude from the second creation account that Adam did not like any of the animals that much, or he would have shacked up with a giraffe or a hippo, or even the serpent, and the history of the world would have been different.


Anyway, I shall endeavor to find the first occurrence in the Bible for the word "sheep", using my Strong's exhaustive concordance (though one might use one of the many Bible search engines available). 

I once searched on "love" and the first occurrence of "love" is quite late in Genesis (which is curious, if God is love and love is central in the commandments.)  The first use of a word for "love" is to say that the father of Jacob and Esau LOVES the wild meat which Esau the hunter would prepare for him.  Remember that Jacob, at his mothers suggestion, DECEIVES the blind Jacob with a domestic dish, and some wool wrapped around his arm, to simulate Esaus' hirsute nature, and then Isaac give the blessing/birthright intended for Esau, to Jacob.

(in a subsequent edit of this post)

Aha, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance shows that the first mention of sheep is Genesis 4:2 "Abel (Cain's brother) was a keeper of sheep."   Now, in some sense, Abel was the first martyr, slain by his own brother, Cain, because of Cain's jealousy over the favor which Abel's religious sacrifice of a sheep finds with God, who rejects Cain's vegetarian offering.

Wow, the Cain/Able meat/beans sacrifice controversy ties right in, does it not?

By Jove, Watson, we may be on to something!

Found this on IMDb, and flashframe777 allowed me to post it here:


3) Sheep - society, as in 'following like sheep', Jack & Ennis ride the herd, outside of it, not a part of it.


7) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise; Ennis Del Mar - island of the sea; Signal - warning or sign; Riverton - moving slowly, winding past, flow, Lightning Flat - as in struck by lightning


x Froggy


Numbers 3 and 7 above are intriguing!

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance shows that the very LAST reference to sheep in the Old Testament, is Zechariah 13:7, which predicts that Israel shall be scattered like sheep.

The very FIRST mention of sheep in the new testament is Matthew 9:36, which mentions that the Israelite are scattered abroad as sheep, having no shepherd. The last time that Jesus mentions the word sheep is to say "Feed my sheep" (John 21:17).


Number 12's point about Methodists is weak.  The followers of John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, had many nicknames.  One was "the bible moths" because they were constantly reading the bible.  Another nick name was the Methodists, because they studied the bible methodically.  Fortunately for everyone, it was the "methodist" name that stuck, and not the "bible moths".   I do not think it is accurate to infer that the Methodists had some methodical right way to do things, in contrast to the Pentecostals.  I suspect that the key point here is that Ennis and Jack are innocent and ignorant of theology, but that they do pause to consider what might possibly be the eschatological estate of mankind, and the fate of their immortal soul.

In point of fact, the Pentecostals operate on a profound misunderstanding of the book of Acts, assuming that the miracle of the apostles speaking in tongues means that suddenly each apostle spoke in some unknown tongue, one perhaps speaking Tagalog, if thee were some Filipinos in the crowd, while another speaks Creol, etc.   The actual miracle was that, as one apostle spoke.... each person in the crowd would hear and understand in his own native tongue.  Note the verse in Revelations which speaks of a "voice of many waters".   In fact, Apostle Paul was  noticeably disapproving regarding the practice of churches "speaking in tongues", and he said that if it is done at all, it must be done in an orderly fashion, with one person speaking, and then another person interpreting to the congregation what has been said.   Pentecostals believe that a worshiper must bring forth some visible miraculous sign of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in an unknown tongue, though the sign can also involve thrashing about as if controlled by a powerful spirit.
« Last Edit: Jan 22, 2006, 12:37 AM by Sitaram »
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Offline jason

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #2 on: Feb 01, 2006, 02:04 AM »
Found this on IMDb, and flashframe777 allowed me to post it here:

This thread is about the use of symbology used in Brokeback Mountain.

1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden. .... Ok so maybe not fav (would need an accurate reference for Sitaram, anyone?)...regarding the bible, i'm pretty sure we can find a few lamb here and there, as well as sheep! ;D

2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence.

3) Sheep - society, as in 'following like sheep', Jack & Ennis ride the herd, outside of it, not a part of it.

4) dead sheep - gutted, hollowed out - sheep's clothing, hiding something that isn't what it seems

5) Brokeback - the last straw, what burdens

6) colors - blue, red, black and lack of color and what they represent

7) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise; Ennis Del Mar - island of the sea; Signal - warning or sign; Riverton - moving slowly, winding past, flow, Lightning Flat - as in struck by lightning

8.) coyotes - tricksters gods, teaching lessons by tricking - not always a pleasant experience

9) flattened harmonica - not harmonic, discord

10) beans = staple/mundane, elk/wild game = speaks for itself

11) black/white hats - experienced/no experience, guileless/earthy

12) methodist/pentecost - methodists have a system, things are done right a certain way/The Pentecost refers to the day wherin the descent of the Holy Spirit —a transformative and profound experience

just a start...please add more!!!

x Froggy


... and a good start Froggy.  Interesting the number of pleasing correspondences in these symbols.
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Offline karind1

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #3 on: Feb 01, 2006, 02:41 AM »
no one get offended....
jack saying :I am good with a can opener   --now what could that symbolize to you?  After seeing the movie 17 times as of today--I am not huritng anyone by doing it and since I am disabled, I have the time...........I heard that line again when I saw it today and for the first time took it in a different way than I had.  I had to smile!

Offline Italian_Dude

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #4 on: Feb 01, 2006, 01:28 PM »
oh my.. don't get me started on symbols..
I just finished an entire course on symbols & mythic patterns in literature.. there may be *spoilers* in this so beware..



If we look at some mythic patterns..for example..  some of my favourite ones are present in this movie

1) loss of innocence

2) dualities

3) hero's quest

Loss of Innocence.. well this would be the moment ennis & jack's relationship is taken to another level.. they've given into their true feeling and are experiencing something we can assume they never have before and which was extremely frowned upon at this time in society.. this is probably the cause of the great sense of denial and shame they feel (especially ennis). A loss of innocence usually represents a tragic or sad time when something bad happens.. and is seen as shedding a person of their innocence, in this case i am not saying that their relationship was wrong, in fact i think it was beautiful but in the society it is viewed as bad and would therefore be considered a loss of innocence because of ennis's views and that of society. A loss of innocence is also seen in Ennis's character when his dad shows him the men being beaten to death for being gay, that was a horrible thing for a child to see and obviously shaped his attitudes and behaviour for the rest of his life, this same loss of innocence is repeated to an even more devastating degree when Lureen tells Ennis Jack died. (death is a one of the greatest and devastating types of a loss of innocence). When Ennis realizes that Jack's death was a gay bashing, like the one he has witness of as a child makes the loss of innocence even more profound and as we see drives him into a type of depression and loneliness.

Dualities.. these are the most prevalent throughout the film, if some of you don't know dualities means like extreme or polar opposites in behaviour, attitudes and so on.. The emotions in this movie are so intense as they both appear to be strong and follow society's view of the "macho manly man." Both characters assume these roles in the beginning of the movie but when they let their guards down and reveal their true selves, it is then that we see the dualities within their characters. Ennis and Jack now are more open with each other and are in love. This leads them to have a loving relationship on the mountain and in a way lessens the way society and the stereotypical male image impacts their behaviour. They seem happier and more fulfilled when they are together, but they are still plagued by feelings of guilt because of what they are doing, even though it is out of love. The duality of heterosexuality & homosexuality is also present, some may argue they were bisexual, but for the sake of dualities, at one point both claimed to be heterosexual and not homosexual "I ain't no queer"  -- "me neither", but their relationship develops and we all know it is more than just friends. The marriage to Lureen and Alma represents this duality as well because in a sense, on the mountain they were married to each other, because they loved each other and that is where the best moments of their lives were spent. A duality is very evident in Ennis alone, he on one hand is homophobic and claims not to be gay, then on the other he is in love with Jack and really cannot forget about him, then when they are together he says that this cant continue because its wrong even though he wants it to continue and be more than what it is. This is a duality of his inner emotions and self and its due to the factors of society..

Hero's quest.. well the hero's quest is also seen in this movie. The hero's quest requires the hero(s) to have a goal or something they want to achieve, and an obstacle that is in the way of them achieving it. In this case the heroes would be Ennis and Jack, and the obstacles or villains would not be not their wives necessarily, but the entire society at that time. The goal would be for Ennis and Jack to end up together and "live happily ever after." However, there is always problems that arise that prevent this from happening. In this case the fact that it is "immoral" and frowned upon is one of the main reasons why they cannot be together but also that they live far away from each other! They are not always around and don't see each other for years at a time. When Jack offers a solution for them to be together and have a ranch Ennis rejects this idea because of what society would think and his own inner fear about homosexuality because of what his father showed him at a young age, the gay bashing (this ties into the loss of innocence aspect). Instead of the two managing to reach their goal and live "happily ever after" it ends in tragedy with Ennis finally realizing that maybe, he should try and be with Jack more and maybe further their relationship and live together, but he finds out Jack was killed and he was too late, therefore, there is no happy ending.

okay well thats just my input on some mythic patterns, but now that you mention symbols..

The symbols that you picked up from the movie are very good and accurate I agree, though I'm not sure about the sheep part.

But since you mention Adam and Eve, this is what I picked up:

Brokeback Mountain (the actual mountain), in a way I think this was like their own "Garden of Eden"
there was no sin, and everyone lived in peace and harmony, until the outside world finds out (society). They were good, their love was true and pure. They had nothing in the world to fear, they were safe. They knew that the mountain was their own paradise and that there everything was good and there were no negative side effects to their love.

Also the colours green & blue are some of the most prevalent due to the scenery, the colour green and the grass represents growth, birth and/or rebirth. When they are together on the mountain they are sort of reborn into a world where they can truly express their love for each other and not be afraid to do so, it can also represents the growth within themselves and their love because their love does grow and blossom during their time on brokeback mountain.

The sky can represent endless possibilities with no boundaries, and that is what this whole movie is about, the possibility that two men can fall in love and that it is NOT wrong and immoral. like the tagline says, love is a force of nature. There is no limit to who one can fall in love with and there is no limit to the extent of love that Ennis and Jack felt for each other, in the mountain their was nurtured, and only grew, (green grass..ect), love is possible no matter what and the sky represents that possibility that homosexuality is possible and should not be so overwhelming for the society of Ennis & Jack to accept and understand. Remember. Love is a force of nature!!   AND WITH SYMBOLS LIKE THESE, IT IS PROVEN TO BE TRUE! :D!


Well sorry for this being soooo long, i commend you if you read it all, haha!!
I have had to do stuff like this for the last five months so I'm used to it!! I actually completed my exam less then a week ago!! haha! Well anyway, this is just my opinion and views of the mythic patterns and symbols in this story.. tell me what you think.. lol! Its just my very detailed and lengthy perspective!!! LOL!  ;D

You and me together
Through the days and nights
I don't worry 'cause
Everything's gonna be all right
People keep talking
They can say what they like
But all I know is everything's gonna be all right..

Offline tpe

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #5 on: Feb 02, 2006, 08:09 AM »
A very nice thread indeed. 

If I may add a pair of symbols central to the story/film:  The Mountains and the Northern Plains.  The Mountains are symbolic of Eden, Arcadia, etc.  The Northern Plains are always described as vast, lonesome, sad, grieving...

Offline monicita

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #6 on: Feb 02, 2006, 10:21 AM »
A symbol I found on the "scene I hated the most" thread (weird, I know):

Jack peels the potato instead of watching Ennis naked. The potato suddenly becomes the center of his universe because he cannot be open about his love/lust for Ennis. The potent symbolism here is the substitution of an object (potato or, more famously a shirt) for the beloved, even for the love itself. Had Jack looked at Ennis in this scene, how much less potent would the image have been! By not looking at him, the forbiddenness of his love/lust is perfectly symbolized.

monicita

Good Thread!
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Offline *Froggy*

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #7 on: Feb 02, 2006, 02:44 PM »
no one get offended....
jack saying :I am good with a can opener   --now what could that symbolize to you?  After seeing the movie 17 times as of today--I am not huritng anyone by doing it and since I am disabled, I have the time...........I heard that line again when I saw it today and for the first time took it in a different way than I had.  I had to smile!

The can opener was just a 'Jack' joke! Just meant that he was useless at cooking too, but could just about manage to open a can (later on, he messes it up and spills some soup/beans!!!) bless him!
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Offline jason

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #8 on: Feb 03, 2006, 02:17 AM »

If we look at some mythic patterns..for example.. 

Loss of Innocence.. well this would be the moment ennis & jack's relationship is taken to another level.. they've given into their true feeling and are experiencing something we can assume they never have before and which was extremely frowned upon at this time in society.. this is probably the cause of the great sense of denial and shame they feel (especially ennis). A loss of innocence usually represents a tragic or sad time when something bad happens.. and is seen as shedding a person of their innocence, in this case i am not saying that their relationship was wrong, in fact i think it was beautiful but in the society it is viewed as bad and would therefore be considered a loss of innocence because of ennis's views and that of society. A loss of innocence is also seen in Ennis's character when his dad shows him the men being beaten to death for being gay, that was a horrible thing for a child to see and obviously shaped his attitudes and behaviour for the rest of his life, this same loss of innocence is repeated to an even more devastating degree when Lureen tells Ennis Jack died. (death is a one of the greatest and devastating types of a loss of innocence). When Ennis realizes that Jack's death was a gay bashing, like the one he has witness of as a child makes the loss of innocence even more profound and as we see drives him into a type of depression and loneliness.

Oh my, powerful stuff. And I know nothing about symbols but loved the thread -- all 9000 lines of it!  Great.

Maybe because I'm untrained I have to ask/argue a big point.  I just can't see J & E's relationship suddenly getting deep as a loss of innocence.  I know it's meant to be, in a crude world --  sex =  nasty (Jack Nasty LOL) = loss of innocence. 

But is it? 

Not for me, in such grand themes as we get in BBM.

If love is a *force of nature* (good kick-off point for this thread), then how is it any more lacking in innocence than the wind, the mountain, the growing grass?

I think that a love undertaken with the depth and the seriousness which characterized the relating in this movie is mainly innocent.

Cheap sex is un-innocent.  Child soldiers who kill experience a loss of innocence. Being betrayed for gain in business/family brings a loss of innocence. Being dragged behind a truck til you die takes innocence from the victim (realising that your community that is meant to nurture, is finally murdering you) and from guys like Ennis' dad.

I don't think "being taken to another level of experience" can be a criterion for loss of innocence.  Is a powerful religious experience a loss of innocence?  Probably not in the sense we usually understand it...  A big love which goes far beyond lust/self interest -- as we all seem to agree fills the wide spaces in BBM  -- is surely more innocent than un-innocent

Anyway, rearranging my mind in this kind of way is what the movie is forcing me to do. Only real works of art do that.

Thanks for grist to my mill, Merags.  I feel ever more strongly I'm right.  What do you think?

PS   If any theme comes out of all the examples I give above, maybe it's that grand destruction is un-innocent, where creative things, like love and religious experience, are innocent (in the sense of the opposite of loss of innocence). Hunters will tell you (I'm not a hunter) that there is a purity about taking another life if you do it to sustain yourself, if you do it respectfully, with thanks, with a religious caste of mind like many so-called primitive societies do.  But this is a whole nuther subject.
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perryp

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This is a great piece of writing. I had read some of these thoughts in widely divergent places, but the writer assembles them in a way that fits in with the artistry of Annie Proulx, Ang Lee and the screenwriters. Thanks for the link.

perryp

Offline jimmypage

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #11 on: Feb 12, 2006, 08:57 AM »
A stupid question ...evidently I've time to waste  ::)
Is there a meaning in number 24?
Ennis parents left just 24$ in a coffee can
their reunion happens  on  24th of some  month (?)
Thanksgiving in 1977 was on november 24.

thanks  :-*

Offline CakeSaint

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Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread
« Reply #12 on: Feb 12, 2006, 11:59 AM »
Found this on IMDb, and flashframe777 allowed me to post it here:


7) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise;


I saw an interview with one of the creators, it might have been Annie Proulx herself, who said that "twist" in rodeo-speak refers in some way to the high level of strength and development in a rider's thighs and buttocks to hold on to a bucking bull.  Kinda the way that Jack holds on to Ennis -- figuratively, I mean, through the years.  I guess you could take it literally too -- there is the motel scene where Jack says, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good."

Offline Patriot1

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Another symbol?
« Reply #13 on: Apr 04, 2006, 06:24 PM »

At least for me, there is another symbol at the end in Ennis's trailer.

Jack lives on in Ennis's closet and mind even though he is gone.

Alma is getting married.  She might move on to Cheyenne as his sister did when she married a roughneck. In any case Alma is leaving Ennis and joining her husband and family.
But, Alma will live on close to Ennis in his closet in the form of her sweater.  Jack and Alma, two people Ennis loved will be with him forever.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline shieldmaid

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Re: Another symbol?
« Reply #14 on: Apr 04, 2006, 09:36 PM »
True, good point.  He also goes outside with her sweater and looks down the road she just drove away on, like the way he looks at the road outside Jack's window.  But the difference is that she's able to say the word "love"--in fact, they both say it in that scene--and he knows he'll see her again.  Maybe it suggests he has to take comfort in his family and memories now that Jack's gone . . .
some open space between

Offline n061857

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Re: Another symbol?
« Reply #15 on: Apr 05, 2006, 09:10 AM »
Yes,  I've thought of that also and mentioned it in another thread.  How sad it is that Ennis only has inanimate objects to love in place of people.  He clearly seems to be cherishing that sweater, as he does thse shirts. (to a lesser degree)