Topic: Jack says "F*ck Me!" in 1st tent scene!!! - *Spoiler* - New POLL

[jackster]

Here you go!  I agree with you, wishful thinking  

Jack never said that, Jake never said it... I don't think this would fit in Ang Lee's vision of Brokeback Mountain by the way...

Folks, folks, please - it doesn't make any difference if anyone ever said "it" - It's just the technicians and sound guys playing tricks with audio bandwidth and subliminal noises. Can't you just see 'em sitting in the sound lab adjusting the tracks and the playback so that it'll come out one way on this set of speakers and another way on another set of speakers or headphones. We all remember playing the Beatles backwards, right? It'd probably be easy enough to do and if you were really good at it even A.L. wouldn't pick up on it. - a dirty little secret - technicians really do rule the world.

[irving]

Sorry jackster...i really cant see them doing that.  It is such a serious and important scene that I just cannot imagine a bunch of professional technicians fooling around with the sound as if it were some kind of big joke.  Nope...no way.  Tell me what kind of headphones u guys have that u hear it thru..i will go out and buy them today...and i bet you i still won't hear it.

[welshwitch]

I never played anything backwards but then I remember the 60s and if you do that you weren't there.

I don't hear "shag me" and I agree with Chameau that Jack/Jake would never have said that - sounds way too modern apart from anything else.

Don't they check the sound tracks before DVDs go out? Wouldn't they catch insertions of that sort?

[jerasjr]

Here you go!  I agree with you, wishful thinking  

Jack never said that, Jake never said it... I don't think this would fit in Ang Lee's vision of Brokeback Mountain by the way...

chameau, agree with you thoroughly on this - they don't verbalize their love for each other, why would they verbalize the sexuality.

[CrimsonSky]

I hear it loud and clear, especially the one when Jack is undoing his belt, and it's not my inagination, or wishful thinking, because I didn't hear it for the first couple of months when I first got the DVD, after watching it endless times, and it didn't really bother me one way or another if it was said or not. Then I got a new TV, with better speakers, and suddenly I could hear it loud and clear, no headphones needed. Personally, I think it adds a touch of realism to the scene, especially the one with Jack's belt, cause it's just after Ennis asks "What are you doing?" as if he's worried Jack wanted to be on top, so Jack tells him in no uncertain terms, and undoes his belt just to confirm it! Ennis didn't need telling twice, did he?

[CrimsonSky]

chameau, agree with you thoroughly on this - they don't verbalize their love for each other, why would they verbalize the sexuality.

I think there's a difference between having a converstaion about their feelings in the cold light of day, and saying things in the heat of the moment while having sex. The ss says they never talked about the sex, which I totally believe they wouldn't, but that when they were having sex, there was "laughing and snorting...no shortage of noise" (or words to that effect), I think the "F*** me" s were part of that noise.

[jerasjr]

I think there's a difference between having a converstaion about their feelings in the cold light of day, and saying things in the heat of the moment while having sex. The ss says they never talked about the sex, which I totally believe they wouldn't, but that when they were having sex, there was "laughing and snorting...no shortage of noise" (or words to that effect), I think the "F*** me" s were part of that noise.

Think the choice of words is interesting, to me noise implies noise - unformed exhalations.  Now if the word sounds had been used that would more imply words being used.  But we're moving away from the baxic topic.  Am an inveterate reader, and the only thing I can compare it to is that at times while I am reading will see a word, but going back find that word is not in the text.  Does that mean the word was there, or was I inserting something that I thought might be there or wished was there or had been suggested was there?

[jacks_key]

I hear it loud and clear, especially the one when Jack is undoing his belt, and it's not my inagination, or wishful thinking, because I didn't hear it for the first couple of months when I first got the DVD, after watching it endless times, and it didn't really bother me one way or another if it was said or not. Then I got a new TV, with better speakers, and suddenly I could hear it loud and clear, no headphones needed. Personally, I think it adds a touch of realism to the scene, especially the one with Jack's belt, cause it's just after Ennis asks "What are you doing?" as if he's worried Jack wanted to be on top, so Jack tells him in no uncertain terms, and undoes his belt just to confirm it! Ennis didn't need telling twice, did he?

EXACTLY!   

[jackster]

I never played anything backwards but then I remember the 60s and if you do that you weren't there.

I think it was the "RubberSoul" album, if you played a certain song backward it came out "Paul is dead" - caused quite a sensation in the US where rumors of his demise circulated like flies around a dead sheep.

[jackster]

Don't they check the sound tracks before DVDs go out? Wouldn't they catch insertions of that sort?

The question here is who's "they"? I really doubt that anyone in a position of authority really listened to this track anywhere near as much, or with the sincere devotion, that the folks on this forum have. Just look at the obvious mistakes on the closed captioning. If they missed those it's not difficult for me to imagine them missing a lot more subtle "insertions". Just MHO, I'm no conspiracy fan.
jackster

[jerasjr]

Personally, I think it adds a touch of realism to the scene,

It may add realism to you in this day and age, but in that time period, do not think that any such thing would have been said, especially in the first encounter - wham, bam, thank you man was the norm...

[jerasjr]

Basically it's just conjecture on our parts - and noone is going to settle it except for someone who has experience in voice analysis.  But think that unless you consider the mores and conventions of the period, you are going astray, and unless you experienced that period, you apply the conventions of another period that is more open.  What is "normal" now was not then.

[jacks_key]

I'm confused.  People didn't say "F*ck me" in 1963?   

[jerasjr]

I'm confused.  People didn't say "F*ck me" in 1963?   

Now that is really a statement.
Of course they did - but not as commonly and coarsely as now.  Am 60 years old and did not hear it used until I was in my teens.  Being gay in the 60's did not mean you were open, basically society told you it was entirely wrong, most of your encounters were one night stands, many were basically nonverbal - Ya wanna go someplace?  Jack and Ennis were lucky to have a one night stand that developed into more.

[welshwitch]

I don't think any four-letter words were used as freely in the 60s. the "Lady Chatterley " trial was at this period; it was ground-breaking in that the book contained various "unacceptable" words, though used in their proper context, not as swear-words, and the publishers won their case and got the go-ahead to publish it.

But one of the issues of the trial was class distinctions ; one barrister asked, and was made fun of, whether it was a book you'd want your wife or servants to read. The implication was that the words being fought over were familiar only to the lower orders. If that was the case, and it wasn't inevitably, then the "lower orders", meaning working-class men, would have used them among themselves but not in the presence of women and children.

Therefore I think it entirely possible that Jack and Ennis knew the words and had heard them used, might use them themselves, but only when there were no women and children, or indeed unfamiliar males, specially those of higher status, around. And rather like D H Lawrence, Jack if he uses the words in this scene uses them only in their literal sense to indicate what he wants Ennis to do.

[Koka]

I watched the movie again a few days ago and suddenly, I could have SWORN I heard it.....but then I pressed rewind another few times, in order to assure myself that it wasn't just my imagination running wild, and I dunno, maybe because my parents were just in the other room and the mere thought of that distracted me or I didn't listen carefully enough, but I didn't seem to hear it....so ah, totally confused here!

[CrimsonSky]

Now that is really a statement.
Of course they did - but not as commonly and coar**ly as now.  Am 60 years old and did not hear it used until I was in my teens.  Being gay in the 60's did not mean you were open, basically society told you it was entirely wrong, most of your encounters were one night stands, many were basically nonverbal - Ya wanna go someplace?  Jack and Ennis were lucky to have a one night stand that developed into more.

I understand that people didn't use those words in public as commonly as people do now (I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and even then people didn't swear as much as they do now ), but there's a difference between what people said in public and what two lovers say to each other in the heat of passion. I don't believe that talking dirty is that recent a phenomenon  Tbh (and this kind of ties in with your post about the difference between "noise" and "sound" ) I don't believe it was Jack talking dirty in a deliberate sense, more that he was just saying out loud what he was thinking at that moment, like the "gun's going off" , it sounds like the sort of thing you say before you even realise you've said it, it's not really talking as in having a conversation, just words that seem to make sense at the time

[CrimsonSky]

Hi CrimsonSky.

I suppose it's a possibility even if a remote one.Perhaps the technicians aren't ,well,enlightened. If it were,as you say,added for a touch of realism It doesn't sit well with me. I want to visualise their attraction more on a spiritual plane then a physical one. I have to admit though their first encounter was pretty animalistic so, who knows, but I certainly hope not. It just don't feel right.I did hear distinctly the grunts and groans and thought that was acceptable and right.Fact is I loved it.

I can't argue with that, we all see and feel things differently and have different views on what feels right or wrong to us. For me personally, I just see the "f*** me"s as the same as the grunts and groans, just vocally expressing what they were feeling at that moment, but just a bit more elaborate, for want of a better expression

  I've just made the connection between your username and Jack's "high altitude f***" line(I know, I'm a bit slow sometimes ), do you feel the same about Jack using the word in that scene? (Not having a dig, I'm just curious ) 

[jerasjr]

I can't argue with that, we all see and feel things differently and have different views on what feels right or wrong to us. For me personally, I just see the "f*** me"s as the same as the grunts and groans, just vocally expressing what they were feeling at that moment, but just a bit more elaborate, for want of a better expression
quote]
 See now Crimson Sky, I would have no issue with hearing a f..k me if it were at another time.  For want of a better word, male/male connections were "furtive", and for all their isolation, that might have overshadowed all their passion.  Now if they were lovers, with the intimacy that develops then, no problem.

[CrimsonSky]

 See now Crimson Sky, I would have no issue with hearing a f..k me if it were at another time.  For want of a better word, male/male connections were "furtive", and for all their isolation, that might have overshadowed all their passion.  Now if they were lovers, with the intimacy that develops then, no problem.

Do you mean at another time in Ennis and Jack's relationship, or another time in history? Sorry if I sound thick, or argumentative, but I just don't get how two people could let go enough to actually have sex (and in this case, rough, no-holds-barred sex), but still manage to be polite enough to mind their language  

[ksxks]

LOL!! Not to rain on anyones parade, but I believe you guys are either doing some very wishful thinking  straining both your imagination and ears to the limit at the same time or your viewing the gay XXX-rated version Bareback Mountain.

I have viewed the film while utilising my closed caption device and the words...well... Shag-me ,never appear.The closed caption device is a great tool in aiding to  understand what the hell Ennis is actually saying.Believe me,the device has never gone shy on me before.

It's interesting to think about the people that did both the closed captioning, and the dubbing for versions in other languages.  I wonder if there are any non-English versions where words such as "shag me" are actually said.

kathy

[ksxks]

It may add realism to you in this day and age, but in that time period, do not think that any such thing would have been said, especially in the first encounter - wham, bam, thank you man was the norm...

They said "f**k" frequently in the movie, did they not?  "F**k me" was indeed common in 1963, at least in my memory.  Only old folks would have said "wham, bam, thank you ma'am or man" at the time, I think.  And I agree with CrimsonSky, it would have totally made sense for Jack to say this after Ennis said "What are you doing?"  As to during the act, Jack might well have said this while indeed Ennis was doing exactly that...as people do in situations such as that. 

kathy

[BBM Fan]

Wow!  I was gone for 2 days & a whole other discussion came up on this thread.

I never actually heard "f*** me" clearly.  I did hear a couple "F's" & "me's" & surmised...  The CC was not accurate on this film and hasn't been on others.  However, my CC did read "Jack !@#$ Twist" so I would imagine it would have showed that in FNIT.  I think things were purposefully said quietly, with crescendos of music & probably improvised under their breaths to make the picture more interesting & to cause topics like this to pop up. 

That being said - we all want more of everything in this film - we want to know every detail of what was said & what was thought, etc.  For instance, OT - in the SNIT - I & some others heard "I want to kiss you" - others did not.  Some heard "lie back".  I did not.

Who knows, but if it makes the movie more interesting for those of us who heard it, I'm for it.

IMO   

Also, in 1963 in Southern California, the word "f***" was used alot.  I don't know about Wyoming, but as Kathy points out, they did say it a lot in this movie, so could have - in FNIT.  Maybe Kathy & I ran in the same circles   

[ksxks]

Wow!  I was gone for 2 days & a whole other discussion came up on this thread.

I never actually heard "f*** me" clearly.  I did hear a couple "F's" & "me's" & surmised...  The CC was not accurate on this film and hasn't been on others.  However, my CC did read "Jack !@#$ Twist" so I would imagine it would have showed that in FNIT.  I think things were purposefully said quietly, with crescendos of music & probably improvised under their breaths to make the picture more interesting & to cause topics like this to pop up. 

That being said - we all want more of everything in this film - we want to know every detail of what was said & what was thought, etc.  For instance, OT - in the SNIT - I & some others heard "I want to kiss you" - others did not.  Some heard "lie back".  I did not.

Who knows, but if it makes the movie more interesting for those of us who heard it, I'm for it.

IMO   

Also, in 1963 in Southern California, the word "f***" was used alot.  I don't know about Wyoming, but as Kathy points out, they did say it a lot in this movie, so could have - in FNIT.  Maybe Kathy & I ran in the same circles    

You bet, BBM Fan!       

I also think it was done purposely, with music overlaid, things not said clearly -- seems like something AL would do.

kathy

[BBM Fan]

You bet, BBM Fan!       

I also think it was done purposely, with music overlaid, things not said clearly -- seems like something AL would do.

kathy

I probably wasn't as fun as you were in '63 - I was actually shy then.  What a waste!


OT - I just realized I made a huge grammatical error in that post - but don't go back looking for it.   

[CrimsonSky]

LMAO !!! Ya got me there you cleaver bastard.

But my reply.....Jack was highly emotional. His words were spoken during a love spat. Agreed? I am sure his feelings of thier relationship was more of an endearing one......and I know what you are going to ask,if Jack would utterthe word   "shag" during a love spat is it conceivable he would give it up during a highly charged emotional seual encounter?

Well, anything is possible.

I totally agree with that, even if we never agree on the rest 

Kathy, I was wondering the same thing. Doesn't the Collector's Edition have  Spanish and French soundtracks? If I eventually decide to get it, I'll check out the Spanish version

[aintfoolin]

As a child of the 60s , the word f--ck was definitly part of people I knew 's everyday vocab, but to me Jack using it goes to my thinking that Jack had a little bit more experience in the "worldly ways " than Ennis. Jack had been on the rodeo curciut before he met Ennis and probably picked up alot more of this type of language  and action from his travels. But I don't think Ennis was so naive that he did'nt know what Jack meant either. It definitly showed he knew and he did. I think it turned Ennis on even more. Thus Jack Nasty indeed, This was'nt a time to drag out instrction manuals or dictionarys and "proper " ettiquette. like that. This was pure raw desire from weeks of pent up sexual desire and long awaited animalistic wanting. Jack knew what he wanted and  was gonna get it ...much to Ennis's delight though I think Ennis did put up a "mock" struggle I might add. This was no kid's game. I loved Jack's XXX rated approach!!!

[jacks_key]

^^Great post, aintfoolin!  I totally agree. 

[sara_chocolate]

what...did ennis said I LOVE U to jack?when??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i juz really need to know... :\'(

[tizi17]

what...did ennis said I LOVE U to jack?when??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i juz really need to know... :\'(

first of all..    sara_chocolate..

fact is that many people have heard many things, all around the various scenes of the film. and it seems that there is a deleted scene (ennis finds the two shirts) where he hugs the shirts and whispers "i love you" - unfortunately no deleted scenes in no version of the DVD, just flying around in the internet..

tizi