Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler (Read 192875 times)

camom · « **Reply #120 on:** Feb 12, 2006, 03:36 AM »

Quote from: cybernaut on Feb 12, 2006, 03:16 AM

Quote from: camom on Feb 11, 2006, 05:20 PM
I don't know. She sure acted like she was lying, but that story she told...kinda complicated to be a lie. How would she even know that was possible, and why would she make it so complex? It's not like she was ever going to meet Ennis, or that he'd be able to find out anything about Jack's death other than what she told him. Why not just say he crashed his truck? Why be so carefully detailed about it? The whole thing is just odd.

When people bullshit, especially in business, they make it complicated for the person to be worn down to "believe" the lies. Have you seen late-nights infomercials?

My POV is that Lureen was clearly lying. The whole dialogue was cold and scary, devoid of any human emotion as if Jack died as a matter of fact on the newspaper than Jack my husband has died. It even gave me the goosebumps...

Are you saying you watch infomercials?

No, I agree that Lureen was lying. Her speech was very stilted, very much as though she had practiced it. That whole scene is chilling and kinda creepy.

camom

romeshvr · « **Reply #121 on:** Feb 12, 2006, 06:50 AM »

Ok. It is 6:45 in Toronto and I just got up and still thinking about BBM. Gosh, when am I not going to think about it...yikes..

My question is if Ennis believed it was the tire iron and if we are led to believe by the author that Lureen was lying then what really happend to Jack? I did feel there was no emotion in her conversation with Ennis. I guess the million dollar question is how did Jack die?

anie · « **Reply #122 on:** Feb 12, 2006, 07:05 AM »

Quote from: romeshvr on Feb 12, 2006, 06:50 AM

Ok. It is 6:45 in Toronto and I just got up and still thinking about BBM. Gosh, when am I not going to think about it...yikes..

My question is if Ennis believed it was the tire iron and if we are led to believe by the author that Lureen was lying then what really happend to Jack? I did feel there was no emotion in her conversation with Ennis. I guess the million dollar question is how did Jack die?

Ang Lee says clearly in the video of the Charlie Rose interview that
it was obvious (or should have been) that she was lying.

No matter what was vague in the short story, Ang Lee's interpretation for the
movie is what counts when we're thinking about the movie...

Interesting discussions I've been reading. Nicely run forum...

cybernaut · « **Reply #123 on:** Feb 12, 2006, 08:04 AM »

camom: I watch some when I couldn't sleep. Nope I don't buy any but I thought they are an extension of "The View"...

camom · « **Reply #124 on:** Feb 12, 2006, 05:15 PM »

Quote from: cybernaut on Feb 12, 2006, 08:04 AM

camom: I watch some when I couldn't sleep. Nope I don't buy any but I thought they are an extension of "The View"...

Luckily here we have Turner Classic Movies all night!

It's true that when we're watching the movie, it's Ang Lee's interpretation. It's hard, though, when you've also read the story multiple times--in my mind they tend to blend together. Sometimes I forget that to some extent they really are slightly different tellings of the same events.

camom

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #125 on:** Feb 12, 2006, 08:31 PM »

In the screenplay (and subsequently on the screen) Lureen's recounting of Jack's death is made in a "level voice". I think Ang's interpretation is clear.

Cowboy Cody · « **Reply #126 on:** Feb 12, 2006, 09:19 PM »

I still say tire iron.

camom · « **Reply #127 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 01:45 AM »

I don't want Jack to be dead...I don't want Ennis to be miserable...

I can't stop going back to watch it all again, and every time I do, I get a terrible headache from all the tension. At this rate, my head is going to explode by the time the Oscars come around.

I don't want Jack to be dead!!!! :'(

camom

jshane2006 · « **Reply #128 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 04:31 AM »

I was living in New York City in the early 80's. I went to see about a room in an apartment. I met with a young (female) columbia law student who had the lease on the apartment. In those days the "clone" look was popular and I was wearing tight levis and a flannel shirt. This woman picked up on the fact that I might be gay and started asking in a very dispassionate tone of voice "if I was seeing someone, would HE OR SHE be also sharing the bedroom some of the time." When I confirmed her suspician ( since I had a lover at the time ) that "I was seeing someone and "he" ..... ( I started using the pronoun that confirmed I was gay. )

Whenever I used the " he " pronoun she let out a barely audible gasp. She didn't want to admit to homophobia but the barelysurpressed gasp was so much like Lureen it is uncanny.

To be fair to the Lureen character she obviously had been through major shock and speaking to Ennis confirmed things that probably had crossed her mind about Jack but probably never gave serious thought. They just grew apart as she learned she was a good businesswoman
( which would have given a woman a lot of satisfaction - compare with the financial strains Alma faced ) Lureen and Jack were both outgoing and since Jack had the touch as a salesman their relationship seemed more amicable. Lureen enjoyed seeing Jack tell her dad off
at Thanksgiving.

I agree with most of those who post here saying that Jack was murdered by the roughneck crowd and Lureen had nothing to do with it but suddenly found that to keep her business thriving she needed to stick to the accepted version of Jack's death. When she was younger she
probably got what she wanted from her dad. She knew what she liked when she saw Jack and went for him. Before Jack's death she probably never experienced the ugly side of life - which is the exact opposite of Ennis who was traumatised by the sight of a gruesome murder at 8 or 9. Lureen doesn't even know what Ennis had witnesssed as a child.

Did anyone here think it was odd that Lureen had never met Jack's parents?

romeshvr · « **Reply #129 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 05:38 AM »

I know. It is strange Lureen did not meet Mr. Twist Sr and Mrs Twist. For that matter I do not think even his son met his grand-parents. I wonder why? Even Jack did not take Lureen and his son to Lightinin Flat to meet his parents. I understand Jack went up every year to Lightinin Flat to help out his folks. Strange is it not?

frenchcda · « **Reply #130 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 06:20 AM »

DECEASED. He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call,had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing. This would be alright, Jack would answer, had to answer. But he did not. It was Laureen and she said who? who is this? and when he told her again she said in a level voice yes, Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on the back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damage somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drown in his own blood.
No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.
Jack used to mention you, " she said". You're the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that.
Would have let you know, " she said", but I wasn't sure about your name and address. Jack kept most of his friend's addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing.
He was only thirty-nine years old.
The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him. he didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood chocking down Jack's throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim.

Note: No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow.

PS; there is this little passage in the book that may reveal more that one may think, it goes as follow:

Ennis and Jack last together, they had this conversation: Jack said he'd had a thing going with the wife of a rancher down the road in Childress and for the last few months he'd slank around expecting to the SHOT by Laureen or the husband, one. Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometime to make him whip babies.

My dilemma here is that one clearly see that Laureen is quite Jealous and possessive, try to remember Lechan's Husband chatting with jack and prodding him about going to the cabin fishing,my concern here was this some ruse from Laureen in trying to know what Jack was all about and she ended up putting the pieces together??

romeshvr · « **Reply #131 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 06:31 AM »

HI FRENCHDA,

You gave me something to think about. I watched the movie again last night and I paid attention to the party seen with LaShawn, Jack, Lureen and Randall. I know there were some knowing looks between Jack and Randall, but I'm not sure still who exactly Jack was flirting with, was it LaShawn or Randall. Mind you this is not in the short story so I find it difficult to figure out the purpose of this whole scene. I think maybe the play writers put it in there to introduce Randall, which ties into Jack's father saying at the end how Jack is going to bring home another one. To link this to your comment, we don't know for sure if Jack was seeing the wife or the husband. Some times I think he really was seeing the wife and then sometimes I wonder otherwise. If so I wonder if Lureen did shoot Jack would she have gotten away with it, it being early 80s.

frenchcda · « **Reply #132 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 06:31 AM »

FYI: did you know that Jack's son was fifteen, dyslexic and could hardly read, he could see it trough goddamn Laureen wouldn't admit to it and pretended the kid was o.k., refused to get any bitching kind a help about it. he didn't know what the f*** teh answer was. Laureen had teh money and called the shots.

Note; just a little more insight into Laureen personna!

romeshvr · « **Reply #133 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 06:33 AM »

Yep. I think it shows she was cought up in her work and ignored everything. Almost she did not want to believe in the truth or reality.

frenchcda · « **Reply #134 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 07:21 AM »

So much so that my fridge is warmer than she'lle ever be

frenchcda · « **Reply #135 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 07:27 AM »

Quote from: romeshvr on Feb 13, 2006, 06:31 AM

HI FRENCHDA,

You gave me something to think about. I watched the movie again last night and I paid attention to the party seen with LaShawn, Jack, Lureen and Randall. I know there were some knowing looks between Jack and Randall, but I'm not sure still who exactly Jack was flirting with, was it LaShawn or Randall. Mind you this is not in the short story so I find it difficult to figure out the purpose of this whole scene. I think maybe the play writers put it in there to introduce Randall, which ties into Jack's father saying at the end how Jack is going to bring home another one. To link this to your comment, we don't know for sure if Jack was seeing the wife or the husband. Some times I think he really was seeing the wife and then sometimes I wonder otherwise. If so I wonder if Lureen did shoot Jack would she have gotten away with it, it being early 80s.

I'lle get back to you on that one, I am still holding on that Laureen had something to do with Randall prodding Jack, more I see the movie more it keeps creeping up on me the wrong way. the women is mean like mean! she's like her daddy stud swan!

cybernaut · « **Reply #136 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 01:29 PM »

Quote from: Cowboy Cody on Feb 12, 2006, 09:19 PM

I still say tire iron.

Has anyone talked about the "homophobic incidents involving tire iron" in Wyoming? Or do you think that the incident is purely ficitional?

frenchcda · « **Reply #137 on:** Feb 13, 2006, 04:06 PM »

same here, tire iron

gdbrokeback · « **Reply #138 on:** Feb 17, 2006, 01:17 PM »

How did Jack die? Was his wife covering for something? Do you think she had him killed? A response to finding out he was leaving her and moving to Wyoming to "ranch up" with another man (re: what his parents told Ennis)...? There was something very fishy about that conversation, between her and Ennis.

*Froggy* · « **Reply #139 on:** Feb 17, 2006, 01:27 PM »

Hello and welcome.

you might want to read this thread

Jack Twist ending - spoiler

I had to edit your title..hope you don't mind x

Rod · « **Reply #140 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 02:39 AM »

Quote from: brokebackmountain on Dec 21, 2005, 12:37 PM

Quote from: Lamar on Dec 20, 2005, 10:16 PM
I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.

1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.

So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.

Hi Lamar, the more I think about it and also after reading your analysis, I am convinced that Jack was killed as the quick flash in the movie suggested. Thanks for your detailed insights.

I think Jack was killed also, but remember at that time Jack's father in law had already died, remember he said his wife was a good business woman..

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #141 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 06:01 PM »

Ang discusses this with Charlie Rose in their interview from December.

chameau · « **Reply #142 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 06:41 PM »

Quote from: bnjmn3 on Feb 25, 2006, 06:01 PM

Ang discusses this with Charlie Rose in their interview from December.

Thanks for reminding bnjmn3, I need to watch this interview again.

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #143 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 06:53 PM »

Watched it last night, both Ang and Heath are incredible and rather humble with Charlie. Very informative, too.

chameau · « **Reply #144 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 08:19 PM »

Quote from: bnjmn3 on Feb 25, 2006, 06:53 PM

Watched it last night, both Ang and Heath are incredible and rather humble with Charlie. Very informative, too.

Ang and Heath are always humble, I just so love and respect these men. Same for Jake BTW.

guajillo55 · « **Reply #145 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 09:59 PM »

Quote from: frenchcda on Feb 13, 2006, 06:20 AM

Ennis and Jack last together, they had this conversation: Jack said he'd had a thing going with the wife of a rancher down the road in Childress and for the last few months he'd slank around expecting to the SHOT by Laureen or the husband, one. Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometime to make him whip babies.

Aha! So we have the answer at last: LaShawn was the killer! (she being the "husband" Jack mentioned who might shoot him--he had reversed the genders in his lie to Ennis). LaShawn has two reasons to want to get rid of Jack: 1. she had fallen in love with Jack and then felt spurned when she discovered that ... 2. Jack was gay and shtupping her very own husband, which would of course scandalize her and frighten her little sorority heart to the core that people might find out her husband was gay.

j/k

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #146 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 10:49 PM »

Has anyone noticed in some of the short docs about BBM that there are scenes of some men..(front shot of one balding guy in a uniform or mechanic outfit)..who just might be the "killers" of Jack we see by the railroad tracks in Ennis' mind. They are listed in the credits, but has anyone else seen that shots I refer to?? I have seen it on IFC for sure.

rebecca · « **Reply #147 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 10:57 AM »

i think that everybody may have their own answer about the dead of jack. it's according to your feeling and thinking of the movie.

*Froggy* · « **Reply #148 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 03:33 PM »

Quote from: rebecca on Feb 26, 2006, 10:57 AM

i think that everybody may have their own answer about the dead of jack. it's according to your feeling and thinking of the movie.

or short story.

Jack del Sur · « **Reply #149 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 05:58 PM »

Quote from: camom on Feb 13, 2006, 01:45 AM

I don't want Jack to be dead...I don't want Ennis to be miserable...

I can't stop going back to watch it all again, and every time I do, I get a terrible headache from all the tension. At this rate, my head is going to explode by the time the Oscars come around.

I don't want Jack to be dead!!!! :'(

camom

I wish They went to live together and to have a happy end