Topic: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?

[edgar]

"If you believe the images are real, that would have to mean either Ennis or Laureen was there when it happened in order for one of them to have a flashback of the real scene."

Wow. That's a  thought. You're pushing my interp to its logical conclusion (farther than I want to go with it), but it's chilling possibility. Lureen (by accident? by design?) might have seen the murder, and she is the author and source of the "official story."

But what I'm thinking is that Lureen simply knew what had happened. Either she and the police figured it out by looking at the crime scene, or people who knew told her. Thus, the images in her head are not flashbacks, but her own "reconstruction" of what *actually* happened to Jack.

Psychologically, I just can't see Ennis thinking those thoughts while he's talking to Lureen. In such a situation, the most common response would be denial of the death at all, not an imagining of a worse sort of death.

Of course we all have our own interps. Goes without saying. That's why it's fun to discuss them. 

[TwoSkins]

I thought about some of the responsed and I agree that Jack and Randall must have been "dicovered" and the killing scene is a bashing, not brought about by Laureen...

Jack was such a brave man and a romantic for his time and place  - he would have risked it all for Ennis as well!!... I remember the thought in the Short Story how angry and painful it was for Ennis to know that there was no one there to help Jack if it was the rim of tire!!

 

[tpe]

I thought about some of the responsed and I agree that Jack and Randall must have been "dicovered" and the killing scene is a bashing, not brought about by Laureen...

Jack was such a brave man and a romantic for his time and place  - he would have risked it all for Ennis as well!!... I remember the thought in the Short Story how angry and painful it was for Ennis to know that there was no one there to help Jack if it was the rim of tire!!

You know, somehow I think Jack would not have minded being killed had he been able to share those 20 years with Ennis.

I think he was aware of the dangers, but did not really care.  He was singleminded in his love.  Dying young was not an issue so long as he had what he wanted most.

[TwoSkins]

TPE - such great insight! What a Movie huh? - dont you think they are real sometimes?

[tpe]

TPE - such great insight! What a Movie huh? - dont you think they are real sometimes?

They seem so real that I am so full of emotion right now here at the office...  A bit awkward, I must admit...

[TwoSkins]

 
I understand completely!

[donnaread]

Like LuvJackNasty, I also believe that Jack was murdered. But how?

The least possibility I would like to think of is Lureen's involvement to have Jack killed. Could she have really turned from her love to hate and have Jack killed? I really hope not.

  The first time I saw the movie, just hearing the way Lureen told Ennis how Jack died, I wondered if she knew more than she was saying.  She sounded like she was repeating a story that was told to HER...but by whom, I thought...possibly her father?  Maybe Jack WAS planning to leave Lureen for Randall (because Ennis wouldn't live with him)...I can't see her father swallowing the humiliation of his daughter being left for another man.  He could have had Jack killed, then fed this "accident" story to Lureen.  I really can't see her having a hand in his murder.  I really do think she cared about him.  But the short story is deliberately ambiguous. and by the time Jack dies, Lureen's father has already been dead for quite awhile.   Heath Ledger himself says he hoped the movie inspires more questions than answers.  And Diana Osanna said she belives it was an accident.  Who are we to argue with one of the writers, lol. But, Personally I prefer to think he was murdered...makes the movie more dramatic.  And if he WAS murdered, I believe it was because of Randall, not Ennis. 

[LuvJackNasty]

You know, somehow I think Jack would not have minded being killed had he been able to share those 20 years with Ennis.

I think he was aware of the dangers, but did not really care.  He was singleminded in his love.  Dying young was not an issue so long as he had what he wanted most.

I agree whole-heartedly TPE. I think Jack would have rather have had a life with Ennis no matter how long or short. That's what was most important to him. That compounds the tragedy of the story, at least for me. Yes they had 20 years of loving each other, but it was mostly from a distance. Jack didn't get that sweet life with Ennis and the very thing that Ennis was afraid of happened anyway.

[tpe]

I agree whole-heartedly TPE. I think Jack would have rather have had a life with Ennis no matter how long or short. That's what was most important to him. That compounds the tragedy of the story, at least for me. Yes they had 20 years of loving each other, but it was mostly from a distance. Jack didn't get that sweet life with Ennis and the very thing that Ennis was afraid of happened anyway.

Thanks LuvJackNasty.  Whether we believe or not believe that there is more to Jack's death than meets the eye in the movie, we are sure that, in a very real sense, the end for both of them was inevitable.  Was Jack's recklessness (surely this contributed to his murder) compounded by Ennis's intransigence?  I would think yes.  But Jack would have it no other way, in the end.  Perhaps his death was predestined by his inability to take stock of consequences (whether with Lureen, with Randall, or with the mysterious mechanics), something Ennis had to a fault.

[LuvJackNasty]

I think Jack got more reckless after that last meeting and that was his undoing. There is so much that we don't know that led up to his death. I think something finally broke in him- "And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that"; Ennis breaking down and not being able to stand it anymore. I don't believe that he did or even could give up on Ennis so I don't feel that last meeting was an end to their relationship, but more of an end to Jack's hopes of having a life with Ennis. I think reality finally slapped him in the face and when he went back to Texas he wasn't as cautious. It could be any number of instances that led to  Jack being killed-we're never going to know- but I think him realizing that his dreams were just that and the aftermath of that realization played a big part in what happened to him.

[frenchcda]

You know, somehow I think Jack would not have minded being killed had he been able to share those 20 years with Ennis.

I think he was aware of the dangers, but did not really care.  He was singleminded in his love.  Dying young was not an issue so long as he had what he wanted most.

Maybe this is OT, however it is a point I wish to discuss and I am wondering about this situation as to Jack death, it is very much a coincidence that the time of his death was also the height of the aids epidemic!!!!
 I wondered if this scene has any relevance to this matter.
 I personally have known people who have suffered alot due the some unfortunate circumstance after leaving their lovers, mostly a lot of men who had affairs with other men especially single men with married men and their fear due to the aids factors had devastating results.
 I was watching the movie last night and it dawned on me that I had known some people back in the late 80th's who had ended long term relationship only to succumb to aids afterward!
 The scene regarding Jack twist and his lack of foresight kinda of bequeath his doom?
 any comment or point of view on this matter?
  or does anyone see a connection to this scene and what I cited above?

[tpe]

frenchcda, indeed OOT, but interesting nonetheless.

In a sense, BBM is timeless, in that it did not seem to reference any of the touchstones in recent Gay history.  I think it was partly because of the setting: rural Wyoming, so far from the gay efloresence of the Cities and the life lived on edge.  It is partly intentional: to make the story resonate more universally -- make it timeless and boundless.

This said, it is interesting that the period corresponding to Jack's death falls pat on the start of the great Epidemic.  Anyone who has seen friends and acquaintances swept away will capture some nuance of a correspondence.

Whether the symbolism is there or not, I think, in the end, the love and death of Jack Twist transcends even these defining moments -- so raw and affecting even to us today.   

Jack Twist lived and died under one defining love.  The exact circumstances surrounding this death or any period symbolism that it may represent pales in comparison to that love.  Had he died of AIDS, it would not have changed the substance of what defined him as a character in BBM.

In the end, there is only one reference.  There is only one touchstone.  There is only one defining entity.

His name is Ennis Del Mar.

[Patriot1]

Maybe this is OT, however it is a point I wish to discuss and I am wondering about this situation as to Jack death, it is very much a coincidence that the time of his death was also the height of the aids epidemic!!!!
 I wondered if this scene has any relevance to this matter.
 I personally have known people who have suffered alot due the some unfortunate circumstance after leaving their lovers, mostly a lot of men who had affairs with other men especially single men with married men and their fear due to the aids factors had devastating results.
 I was watching the movie last night and it dawned on me that I had known some people back in the late 80th's who had ended long term relationship only to succumb to aids afterward!
 The scene regarding Jack twist and his lack of foresight kinda of bequeath his doom?
 any comment or point of view on this matter?
  or does anyone see a connection to this scene and what I cited above?

Frenchcda,  Jack's death had nothing to do with AIDS as you know, but, you do bring up a similarity between those people you know who ended long-term relationships and Jack's death.  All those people, after giving up a long-term relationship got crazy reckless which resulted in their deaths.  I am sure Jack became reckless with Randall and outed himself in some way and in the wrong time and place.  After a long-term relationship it is common to sleep with anyone and everyone looking for someone else.  As we now know, that was not a good thing to do unprotected.

[frenchcda]

I would and certainly do not imply that Jack died of aids, what I was making reference to. some manners that period or his actions reflect very much the demise of some of the people that have unfortunately succumbed that have abruptly finalized relationship due to their fear of this disease, and in some ways this fear has somewhat became a truth for them.
 I understand Jack died due to a lack of tolerance form ignorance itself in the same intolerance of some people defined and ended their relationships with dire consequences.
 that being said I can clearly say that at least I was not all that wrong in asserting that there is or was some kind of coloration to their behaviors no matter the environment

[tpe]

I would and certainly do not imply that Jack died of aids, what I was making reference to. some manners that period or his actions reflect very much the demise of some of the people that have unfortunately succumbed that have abruptly finalized relationship due to their fear of this disease, and in some ways this fear has somewhat became a truth for them.
 I understand Jack died due to a lack of tolerance form ignorance itself in the same intolerance of some people defined and ended their relationships with dire consequences.
 that being said I can clearly say that at least I was not all that wrong in asserting that there is or was some kind of coloration to their behaviors no matter the environment

Hello frenchcda, yes I know that you did not imply that Jack died of AIDS.  I also mentioned this as an illustration of the love's universality even if this was true.

An older friend of mine did point out this specific point that characterized the period when Jack died.  When you 100 entires crossed out in an address book in the space of a few weeks back then, and see the aversion and fear those that passed on were treated in the final days, you cannot help but think of their deaths and the intolerance they were treated as closely intertwined in a profound way.  I think this is what my older friend had in mind.  You call it 'coloration'.  I think I understand your point here.

[AddieTatum16]

I honestly don't believe that Lureen killed Jack. I mean sure she may have become embittered over the years (I mean, any of us would if our spouses became unfaithful), but I don't think she was the culprit. If you look carefully during the scene where she is on the phone with Ennis, you can see she has tears in her eyes. Therefore, it's implied that she found out that her husband loved Ennis, more than he ever loved her, and was heartbroken about it.