Author Topic: how many lies were told? (Read 102452 times)

Valandil Eluch · « **on:** Apr 17, 2006, 03:51 PM »

i'm just wondering we knew that Ennis was almost open to Jack but jack was not that honest to him i'm wondering how many lies he may have told Ennis

dirtbiker · « **Reply #1 on:** Apr 17, 2006, 04:15 PM »

- Ranch foreman's "wife"
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
- Lying to Lureen about his real intentions of driving 14 hours 2-3 times a year (well, lying in general, and not necessarily to Ennis)
- Possibly lying about Mexico

Feel free to add to this list...

tpe · « **Reply #2 on:** Apr 17, 2006, 04:22 PM »

I wonder whether jack ever told that much to Ennis -- so technically, he was not lying if he never told him anything.

Perhaps we should also consider the things Jack intentionally hid from Ennis.

Ennis's knowledge of the Mexico trips is quite ambiguous. Did Jack tell him about such trips before, or did Ennis just deduce Jack's trips from the comment in the last meeting? I would think the former is more likely.

I think that most of these things Jack kept hidden were of a transient sexual nature -- nothing like Jack actually getting deeply/romantically involved with another man. Even the affair with Randall was probably more for sexual gratification in the beginning (at least up until the last meeting).

Ennis is Jack's one great love. All else was of a purely physical need with no depth. When all hope for a shared life with Ennis was lost in the last meeting, it was only then that he probably considered someone else -- but death held that love pristine, mercifully. And perhaps Jack was only 'thinking out loud'. I canot imagine him ever forgetting Ennis, so long as he and Ennis lived.

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #3 on:** Apr 17, 2006, 04:35 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 17, 2006, 04:22 PM

I wonder whether jack ever told that much to Ennis -- so technically, he was not lying if he never told him anything.

Perhaps we should also consider the things Jack intentionally hid from Ennis.

Ennis's knowledge of the Mexico trips is quite ambiguous. Did Jack tell him about such trips before, or did Ennis just deduce Jack's trips from the comment in the last meeting? I would think the former is more likely.

I think that most of these things Jack kept hidden were of a transient sexual nature -- nothing like Jack actually getting deeply/romantically involved with another man. Even the affair with Randall was probably more for sexual gratification in the beginning (at least up until the last meeting).

Ennis is Jack's one great love. All else was of a purely physical need with no depth. When all hope for a shared life with Ennis was lost in the last meeting, it was only then that he probably considered someone else -- but death held that love pristine, mercifully. And perhaps Jack was only 'thinking out loud'. I canot imagine him ever forgetting Ennis, so long as he and Ennis lived.

TPE why you always broke may heart and bring me the tears!!!!!

tpe · « **Reply #4 on:** Apr 17, 2006, 04:45 PM »

Carlos_H82, thanks. I did get emotionally worked-up thinking about your question.

The question is certainly a good one. dirtbiker started a list. I suspect that if we dig into each item on this list, we will have a lot to cry over.

filazahies · « **Reply #5 on:** Apr 17, 2006, 06:33 PM »

Quote from: dirtbiker on Apr 17, 2006, 04:15 PM

- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)

/quote]I don't think this is exactly a "lie". Jack knew about Ennis' horror to be discovered and if he only could imagine that Aguirre had found out about their relationship, he may cut all contact with Jack. So Jack told him this "lie" first, to avoid Ennis know what Aguire had discovered and second, to make Ennis know he wouldn't go to Brokeback without him.

I don't think Jack lied about Mexico, I just think he never talked about it, though it's not clear from the movie or from the story...

forbiddenlovers · « **Reply #6 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 03:19 PM »

Isn't it also interesting to note on this same topic that Jack lies much more about things than Ennis. I know it was mentioned in the first post here, but I find myself thinking of that sometimes. Ennis is pretty straightforward with Jack, with the exception of telling Jack that Alma knew what was up. Jack was hiding a lot, the ranch foreman's "wife", Aguirre encounter the following summer, stealing the shirt (which I don't mind that lie, it's a great source of material of the story obviously when we see how it ended up), Mexico, just so much. And I think Jack lies, not to be deceitful, but to protect Ennis and also not hurt Ennis. Just random thinking here

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #7 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 03:22 PM »

Quote from: forbiddenlovers on Apr 18, 2006, 03:19 PM

Isn't it also interesting to note on this same topic that Jack lies much more about things than Ennis. I know it was mentioned in the first post here, but I find myself thinking of that sometimes. Ennis is pretty straightforward with Jack, with the exception of telling Jack that Alma knew what was up. Jack was hiding a lot, the ranch foreman's "wife", Aguirre encounter the following summer, stealing the shirt (which I don't mind that lie, it's a great source of material of the story obviously when we see how it ended up), Mexico, just so much. And I think Jack lies, not to be deceitful, but to protect Ennis and also not hurt Ennis. Just random thinking here

random thinking but i agree with you

ethan · « **Reply #8 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:01 PM »

Quote from: dirtbiker on Apr 17, 2006, 04:15 PM

- Ranch foreman's "wife"
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
- Lying to Lureen about his real intentions of driving 14 hours 2-3 times a year (well, lying in general, and not necessarily to Ennis)
- Possibly lying about Mexico

Feel free to add to this list...

Thanks for the list, dirtbiker. The first one - Ranch foreman's "wife" got me thinking. Why did Jack need to mention "wife" and even lie about it? Is it because Ennis mentioned Cassie?

Patriot1 · « **Reply #9 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:09 PM »

Quote from: ethan on Apr 18, 2006, 11:01 PM

Quote from: dirtbiker on Apr 17, 2006, 04:15 PM
- Ranch foreman's "wife"
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
- Lying to Lureen about his real intentions of driving 14 hours 2-3 times a year (well, lying in general, and not necessarily to Ennis)
- Possibly lying about Mexico

Feel free to add to this list...

Thanks for the list, dirtbiker. The first one - Ranch foreman's "wife" got me thinking. Why did Jack need to mention "wife" and even lie about it? Is it because Ennis mentioned Cassie?

Ethan, I think you will have to watch Ennis' face when Jack tells him his and Laureen's relationship could be done over the phone. Ennis...while I wouldn't say he looks mad, he looks unhappy. I think that is why Jack threw in the story about the forman's wife.

ethan · « **Reply #10 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:15 PM »

Patriot1, thanks. I know this OT. Why should Ennis be unhappy or mad? I will take a closer look next time.

The lie about ranch foreman's wife is the one I don't like the most from Jack.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #11 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:24 PM »

Quote from: ethan on Apr 18, 2006, 11:15 PM

Patriot1, thanks. I know this OT. Why should Ennis be unhappy or mad? I will take a closer look next time.

The lie about ranch foreman's wife is the one I don't like the most from Jack.

Ennis wants Jack to appear normal in every way so there is no chance of anyone suspecting. Wife, kid(s) etc. You notice Ennis has asked Jack two times if his relationship is "normal" with Laureen. It seems to be a big concern to him. I believe that is why he was crying at his own divorce. He could no longer appear to be "normal" with a wife and kids.

Yes, that lie hurts the most, I believe, because we know it isn't the wife but the husband and that is the man that is going to take Jack away.

ethan · « **Reply #12 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:48 PM »

Thanks, Patriot1. As always, your insights are appreciated. I could not wait so I just watched the DVD on that scene.

Other than Ennis's concern of appearing "normal" to others, I also believe it was Ennis's attempt to find out if Jack had been fooling. I always get the impression that Ennis is not the trusty type of person - always on high alert.

And yes.

Sorry - now back to scheduled programming. :D

dirtbiker · « **Reply #13 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:50 PM »

Quote from: ethan on Apr 18, 2006, 11:01 PM

Quote from: dirtbiker on Apr 17, 2006, 04:15 PM
- Ranch foreman's "wife"
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
- Lying to Lureen about his real intentions of driving 14 hours 2-3 times a year (well, lying in general, and not necessarily to Ennis)
- Possibly lying about Mexico

Feel free to add to this list...

Thanks for the list, dirtbiker. The first one - Ranch foreman's "wife" got me thinking. Why did Jack need to mention "wife" and even lie about it? Is it because Ennis mentioned Cassie?

I think he said the "wife" instead of the ranch foreman because he didn't want Ennis to think that he was cheating on another man. Cheating on a woman probably doesn't have the same meaning to Ennis.

greenfrog · « **Reply #14 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:54 PM »

To Ennis, Jack cheating with a woman is not as bad because it's more normal. But when he sleeps with other men, that's when Ennis has a problem because, to him it's not normal (and he's scared it will get Jack killed).

ethan · « **Reply #15 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:55 PM »

Quote from: dirtbiker on Apr 18, 2006, 11:50 PM

I think he said the "wife" instead of the ranch foreman because he didn't want Ennis to think that he was cheating on another man. Cheating on a woman probably doesn't have the same meaning to Ennis.

Yes I agree. But Jack could have just said "no" when Ennis asked. Why even answered and lied about it?

greenfrog · « **Reply #16 on:** Apr 18, 2006, 11:59 PM »

Quote from: ethan on Apr 18, 2006, 11:55 PM

Quote from: dirtbiker on Apr 18, 2006, 11:50 PM
I think he said the "wife" instead of the ranch foreman because he didn't want Ennis to think that he was cheating on another man. Cheating on a woman probably doesn't have the same meaning to Ennis.

Yes I agree. But Jack could have just said "no" when Ennis asked. Why even answered and lied about it?

That's true... *Ponders* Maybe he was trying to tell Ennis something. Maybe he wanted Ennis to figure out that he was unhappy with them rarely seeing each other and that he was resorting to desperate measures to keep himself sane.

tpe · « **Reply #17 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 07:04 AM »

Quote from: greenfrog on Apr 18, 2006, 11:59 PM

Quote from: ethan on Apr 18, 2006, 11:55 PM
Quote from: dirtbiker on Apr 18, 2006, 11:50 PM
I think he said the "wife" instead of the ranch foreman because he didn't want Ennis to think that he was cheating on another man. Cheating on a woman probably doesn't have the same meaning to Ennis.

Yes I agree. But Jack could have just said "no" when Ennis asked. Why even answered and lied about it?

That's true... *Ponders* Maybe he was trying to tell Ennis something. Maybe he wanted Ennis to figure out that he was unhappy with them rarely seeing each other and that he was resorting to desperate measures to keep himself sane.

With the look on Ennis's face after Jack telling him about the 'affair' with the ranch foreman -- sometimes I feel by that look that he knew the truth behind the lie, and that he felt the same way as Jack expressed as justification: 'The truth is...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.' Ennis's silence after this seems to confirm that he accepts this as an explanation...and understands.

edgar · « **Reply #18 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 07:11 AM »

Jack is following Ennis's lead here, as he often does. (He does so because he idollizes Ennis, and because Ennis controls the relationship.)

If Ennis tells a story about a waitress, Jack will follow with a story of a foreman's wife... Jack senses that Ennis will be most content if Jack is keeping up a heterosexual front.

But Jack is not that good at lying, and he's getting tired of it.

tpe · « **Reply #19 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 07:16 AM »

Quote from: edgar on Apr 19, 2006, 07:11 AM

Jack is following Ennis's lead here, as he often does. (He does so because he idollizes Ennis, and because Ennis controls the relationship.)

If Ennis tells a story about a waitress, Jack will follow with a story of a foreman's wife... Jack senses that Ennis will be most content if Jack is keeping up a heterosexual front.

But Jack is not that good at lying, and he's getting tired of it.

edgar, thanks.

I think with the exchange of 'stories', both are testing each other -- trying to probe if there is anything the other is not telling.

The difference, of course, is that Ennis speaks the truth, and Jack did not. No... I qualify. I think Jack tried to speak the truth, but was probably dissembling. As I said in my last post, I think perhaps Ennis detected the underlying truth beneath the surface lie.

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #20 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 08:07 AM »

probably he was in his deep conscious about that relationship i mean they knew to well each other and he referred on the fight as guys like you so maybe he was sure that Jack can be able to do that. after all in Ennis mind he was no queer but we don't know his opinion about Jack. Don't get me wrong he never said what he thinks about him in that way.

tpe · « **Reply #21 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 08:42 AM »

Quote from: Carlos_H82 on Apr 19, 2006, 08:07 AM

probably he was in his deep conscious about that relationship i mean they knew to well each other and he referred on the fight as guys like you so maybe he was sure that Jack can be able to do that. after all in Ennis mind he was no queer but we don't know his opinion about Jack. Don't get me wrong he never said what he thinks about him in that way.

Yes, I think in the end, they knew each other without even speaking things out loud.

All the things left unsaid..it weighed down all to heavily on both of them, and yet I sense that they had to verbalize it somehow, if their love was to live...

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #22 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 01:44 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 19, 2006, 08:42 AM

Quote from: Carlos_H82 on Apr 19, 2006, 08:07 AM
probably he was in his deep conscious about that relationship i mean they knew to well each other and he referred on the fight as guys like you so maybe he was sure that Jack can be able to do that. after all in Ennis mind he was no queer but we don't know his opinion about Jack. Don't get me wrong he never said what he thinks about him in that way.

Yes, I think in the end, they knew each other without even speaking things out loud.

All the things left unsaid..it weighed down all to heavily on both of them, and yet I sense that they had to verbalize it somehow, if their love was to live...

i think the same their love was on a down side in that last scene if Jack wouldn't have died something worst on their relationship was going to happen

Jennis Del Twist · « **Reply #23 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 02:45 PM »

You all forgot about the shirts! Ennis complains that he can't believe he lost his shirt on the mountain, and Jack says nothing!

dirtbiker · « **Reply #24 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 02:48 PM »

Quote from: Jennis Del Twist on Apr 19, 2006, 02:45 PM

You all forgot about the shirts! Ennis complains that he can't believe he lost his shirt on the mountain, and Jack says nothing!

Technically speaking, that's not really a "lie"

BTW Jennis, welcome!

forbiddenlovers · « **Reply #25 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 03:00 PM »

yeah, jack didn't want to say anything since he thieved the shirt, LOL!! Just kidding. But yeah, he did lie about that, how soon we forget. I think I get caught up in the significance of the shirt, two shirts really, and I forget about that little bit of Jack lying about letting Ennis think he left the shirt up there.
And yes, Jennis WELCOME!!

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #26 on:** Apr 19, 2006, 03:02 PM »

Wow Jennis first post was here!!!! welcome

now back to our topic

well it is interesting all the views yo all have on this thread

edgar · « **Reply #27 on:** Apr 21, 2006, 12:27 AM »

Quote from: edgar on Apr 19, 2006, 07:11 AM

Jack is following Ennis's lead here, as he often does. (He does so because he idollizes Ennis, and because Ennis controls the relationship.)

If Ennis tells a story about a waitress, Jack will follow with a story of a foreman's wife... Jack senses that Ennis will be most content if Jack is keeping up a heterosexual front.

But Jack is not that good at lying, and he's getting tired of it.

Sorry to quote my own post here, but I just thought of another place where Jack likes and immediately takes it back. In the motel, he says, "I didn't know we'd get back into this... That's a lie; I redlined it all the way down here."

He's not echoing Ennis here, as in the example above, but he's saying what he thinks Ennis wants to hear. Playing it straight, kinda.

Jack obviously has lied a lot in his life, but he really hates lying to Ennis.

jimmy · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2006, 07:31 AM »

I think the two of them just lied because 1 They were both new to a life that they had just fell into and were not to sure which way to go. 2 The fear that ennis had after seeing burt the older cowboy all beat up and dead and nowing that they would not be excepted. 3 The best was they both were scared of there feeling for each other.

stacp · « **Reply #29 on:** May 08, 2006, 01:30 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Apr 18, 2006, 11:24 PM

Ennis wants Jack to appear normal in every way so there is no chance of anyone suspecting. Wife, kid(s) etc. You notice Ennis has asked Jack two times if his relationship is "normal" with Laureen.

I think another time Jack lies is when Ennis and Jack are by the river (immediately after the Thanksgiving scenes) and Ennis asks Jack if it's "normal" with Lureen (I took this as Ennis asking Jack if he and Lureen had sex regularly). Jack has a pensive look on his face, shrugs and says "sure." Now, I am betting from the look on Jack's face that his sex life with Lureen was pretty much dead. I think he lies and tells Ennis everything is okay to keep up the "heterosexual men with a secret" front. Jack knows that as long as he and Ennis keep up the pretense that they are just het buddies who happen to get physical once or twice a year, Ennis can handle it (Ennis has that low startle point). But if Jack starts admitting he and Lureen don't have sex and, later, that he is sleeping with another man, then Whoa! Ennis will be forced to face the truth. Jack knows that if Ennis is ever forced to face the truth (that they are gay men who are deeply in love with one another), Ennis may not be able to handle it.