Topic: how many lies were told?

[edgar]

Quoting stacp:

"Jack knows that as long as he and Ennis keep up the pretense that they are just het buddies who happen to get physical once or twice a year, Ennis can handle it (Ennis has that low startle point)."

Umm, what are "het buddies"?

Quoting again:
"But if Jack starts admitting he and Lureen don't have sex and, later, that he is sleeping with another man, then Whoa!  Ennis will be forced to face the truth.  Jack knows that if Ennis is ever forced to face the truth (that they are gay men who are deeply in love with one another), Ennis may not be able to handle it."

Jack to Ennis: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!

Ooops! wrong movie......

And, on a more serious, note, as I get to know these characters better.... I'm sorry to say that

Jack.   is.   a.    liar.

He lies all the time to try to please Ennis, to fit into what he thinks Ennis wants to hear. He lies in every detail to Lureen--he's living a lie, as they say--and he lies to his parents, telling them that he and Ennis  (or he and Randall) are going to come live up there. Think about it: of course Jack wanted to have Ennis come live with him, but Ennis NEVER held him under any pretences. So what right did he have saying Ennis would come live up there? or Randall, as far as we know?

He keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most. If you go to the short story, he lies to Ennis in the motel, saying he doesn't think about doing it with another guy, while he has in fact been "riding more than bulls."

Sorry, folks. I understand there are reasons here. Just thought it was time to clear the air. Ennis lies to himself. Jack lies to the world.

*hides head from the rain of blows to follow*

[Valandil Eluch]

Ennis wants Jack to appear normal in every way so there is no chance of anyone suspecting.  Wife, kid(s) etc.  You notice Ennis has asked Jack two times if his relationship is "normal" with Laureen.

I think another time Jack lies is when Ennis and Jack are by the river (immediately after the Thanksgiving scenes) and Ennis asks Jack if it's "normal" with Lureen (I took this as Ennis asking Jack if he and Lureen had sex regularly).  Jack has a pensive look on his face, shrugs and says "sure."  Now, I am betting from the look on Jack's face that his sex life with Lureen was pretty much dead.  I think he lies and tells Ennis everything is okay to keep up the "heterosexual men with a secret" front.  Jack knows that as long as he and Ennis keep up the pretense that they are just het buddies who happen to get physical once or twice a year, Ennis can handle it (Ennis has that low startle point).  But if Jack starts admitting he and Lureen don't have sex and, later, that he is sleeping with another man, then Whoa!  Ennis will be forced to face the truth.  Jack knows that if Ennis is ever forced to face the truth (that they are gay men who are deeply in love with one another), Ennis may not be able to handle it.

Stacp in this case i agree you, i really noticed that Jack knew that if ennis knew the truth of "This thing we've here" he would declined to it since he was not ready to face that truth honestly i said many times before the he realize the truth of his real self and his feelings too late for them. but one thing is that i have to agree that in most of them jack lied in order to protect ennis and to mantain their relationship (excluding mexico i didn't forgive that one!!!)

[stacp]

Quoting stacp:

"Jack knows that as long as he and Ennis keep up the pretense that they are just het buddies who happen to get physical once or twice a year, Ennis can handle it (Ennis has that low startle point)."

Umm, what are "het buddies"?

Quoting again:
"But if Jack starts admitting he and Lureen don't have sex and, later, that he is sleeping with another man, then Whoa!  Ennis will be forced to face the truth.  Jack knows that if Ennis is ever forced to face the truth (that they are gay men who are deeply in love with one another), Ennis may not be able to handle it."

Jack to Ennis: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!

Ooops! wrong movie......

And, on a more serious, note, as I get to know these characters better.... I'm sorry to say that

Jack.   is.   a.    liar.

He lies all the time to try to please Ennis, to fit into what he thinks Ennis wants to hear. He lies in every detail to Lureen--he's living a lie, as they say--and he lies to his parents, telling them that he and Ennis  (or he and Randall) are going to come live up there. Think about it: of course Jack wanted to have Ennis come live with him, but Ennis NEVER held him under any pretences. So what right did he have saying Ennis would come live up there? or Randall, as far as we know?

He keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most. If you go to the short story, he lies to Ennis in the motel, saying he doesn't think about doing it with another guy, while he has in fact been "riding more than bulls."

Sorry, folks. I understand there are reasons here. Just thought it was time to clear the air. Ennis lies to himself. Jack lies to the world.

*hides head from the rain of blows to follow*

Hey, Edgar.  "Het buddies" is short for heterosexual buddies.  I'm not sure I agree that Jack keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most.  I agree that Jack kept this from Ennis and in that sense, he lied about it.  But, to Jack, I'm not sure if he thought about it as lying as opposed to just sparing Ennis' feelings.  A fine line indeed, but I don't think Jack had a devious mentality about it.  I think that at the end, during the last confrontation, Jack is just fed up.  He has realized Ennis will never come around, they will never have a life together or even be together.  After twenty years of living a lie (not being true to themselves), he's had enough.  It is reaching a head, and he has to let it out (kind of like Alma did at Thanksgiving).  He'll say it "just once."  What is he saying?  The truth, and the truth sometimes hurts, but it has to be said if there is to be any hope of movement in a relationship or even individually.  Did he know the knowledge about Mexico would hurt Ennis?  Yes, I'm sure.  Ennis sure thought he owned Jack's ass.  But I honestly don't think Jack waited to twist knife into Ennis.  Ennis asked the question, and Jack was ready to let it all come out, come hell or high water.  IMO.   

[BBBOY]

Hey, Edgar.  "Het buddies" is short for heterosexual buddies.  I'm not sure I agree that Jack keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most.  I agree that Jack kept this from Ennis and in that sense, he lied about it.  But, to Jack, I'm not sure if he thought about it as lying as opposed to just sparing Ennis' feelings.  A fine line indeed, but I don't think Jack had a devious mentality about it.  I think that at the end, during the last confrontation, Jack is just fed up.  He has realized Ennis will never come around, they will never have a life together or even be together.  After twenty years of living a lie (not being true to themselves), he's had enough.  It is reaching a head, and he has to let it out (kind of like Alma did at Thanksgiving).  He'll say it "just once."  What is he saying?  The truth, and the truth sometimes hurts, but it has to be said if there is to be any hope of movement in a relationship or even individually.  Did he know the knowledge about Mexico would hurt Ennis?  Yes, I'm sure.  Ennis sure thought he owned Jack's ass.  But I honestly don't think Jack waited to twist knife into Ennis.  Ennis asked the question, and Jack was ready to let it all come out, come hell or high water.  IMO.   

Great observation. Neither of these men are evil or devious, they are just trying to survive and live with what they have. While the scene may imply that Jack gives up on Ennis I can never accept that. He is too much in love and will stay that way for ever. And I believe Ennis would have come around some day too had not Jack been killed. Sorry, but I just can't accept negatives in life, I will always look for hope.

[edgar]

Hey, Edgar.  "Het buddies" is short for heterosexual buddies.  I'm not sure I agree that Jack keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most.  I agree that Jack kept this from Ennis and in that sense, he lied about it.  But, to Jack, I'm not sure if he thought about it as lying as opposed to just sparing Ennis' feelings.  A fine line indeed, but I don't think Jack had a devious mentality about it.  I think that at the end, during the last confrontation, Jack is just fed up.  He has realized Ennis will never come around, they will never have a life together or even be together.  After twenty years of living a lie (not being true to themselves), he's had enough.  It is reaching a head, and he has to let it out (kind of like Alma did at Thanksgiving).  He'll say it "just once."  What is he saying?  The truth, and the truth sometimes hurts, but it has to be said if there is to be any hope of movement in a relationship or even individually.  Did he know the knowledge about Mexico would hurt Ennis?  Yes, I'm sure.  Ennis sure thought he owned Jack's ass.  But I honestly don't think Jack waited to twist knife into Ennis.  Ennis asked the question, and Jack was ready to let it all come out, come hell or high water.  IMO.   

Great observation. Neither of these men are evil or devious, they are just trying to survive and live with what they have. While the scene may imply that Jack gives up on Ennis I can never accept that. He is too much in love and will stay that way for ever. And I believe Ennis would have come around some day too had not Jack been killed. Sorry, but I just can't accept negatives in life, I will always look for hope.

stacp: thanks for the definition. Ya learn something new every day. (To be honest, I had assumed it was a typo of some sort. Sorry!)

I basically agree with you analysis of that scene. However. I hate to say it, but I think Jack WAS trying to twist the knife. Jake G is really brilliant in this scene, and after 20 years of waiting, hoping, trying, doing Ennis's work and his own in the relationship, Jack is so angry he could whip babies. And this communication situation with Ennis is enough to make him explode. It looks like Jack has finally gotten Ennis to be available to him three times in one year, and Jack sees progress. When Ennis drops that little bombshell just as they're leaving, Jack really, really wants to hurt Ennis to make him see what it's like. "Yeah, I been to Mexico. Is there a ***** problem with that?" Those are pretty much the words of someone trying to hurt the other. 

BBBOY: Hope is good. And you may be right.

Sorry if some or all of the above is a little OT.

[Kemmer]

I think it's a mistake to judge Jack and Ennis and their actions by 2006 standards.  Recall that this was 1963-83, and reflect that us older gays who were Jack and Ennis' age in 1963--even here in California--would have rather died than be called queers--or even admitted to ourselves--that we were queers.

These two men grew up in a rabidly homophobic society.  Sure, Jack probably had "experiences" while off rodeoing, but Ennis was locked into "medieval" Wyoming.  It's different with gay men; there isn't so much of a "sex=love" instinct with us.  A gay man can be totally devoted forever to another man, and love him more than life, but that doesn't necessarily preclude sex with someone else when and if an opportunity presents itself.

Jack had his "stands",  but religiously devoting 20 years to the infrequent meetings with Ennis amply demonstrates his devotion to Ennis.  And that final, "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it!" is just another pleading request to cut the crap and get together finally.  when Ennis still "doesn't get it", the heavy artillery of Mexico comes out.

Despite what we later hear about Randall, if Ennis found out and made an appearance at the Twist ranch with the 2 of them there, Randall would be history so fast, his name would have been forgotten by nightfall.

[stacp]

[Great observation. Neither of these men are evil or devious, they are just trying to survive and live with what they have. While the scene may imply that Jack gives up on Ennis I can never accept that. He is too much in love and will stay that way for ever. And I believe Ennis would have come around some day too had not Jack been killed. Sorry, but I just can't accept negatives in life, I will always look for hope.

Oh, I totally agree!  There was hope for Ennis to change.  I think the screenwriters, Ossana and McMurtry, have said that the reason the Cassie character was included in the movie was to show that Ennis realized that he would never be happy with a woman.  He realized he loved Jack and only Jack.  Then, Ennis writes that postcard about November.  I don't think Ennis initiated too many of their meetings over the years (but I could be wrong).  Plus his child support obligations were almost finished, so he didn't have that to tie him down.  These, I think, were signs Ennis could have come around if Jack hadn't have died.  I didn't mean my last post to sound otherwise.  These two would have never been able to leave each other; the love was too strong, but that's just my opinion.  For what it's worth. 

[ms.bluesky]

i think jake told lots of lies maybe we didnt hear about it but i think there was alot of lieing

[jesseanne21]

Patriot1, thanks. I know this OT. Why should Ennis be unhappy or mad? I will take a closer look next time.

The lie about ranch foreman's wife is the one I don't like the most from Jack.

Ennis wants Jack to appear normal in every way so there is no chance of anyone suspecting.  Wife, kid(s) etc.  You notice Ennis has asked Jack two times if his relationship is "normal" with Laureen.  It seems to be a big concern to him.  I believe that is why he was crying at his own divorce.  He could no longer appear to be "normal" with a wife and kids.

Yes, that lie hurts the most, I believe, because we know it isn't the wife but the husband and that is the man that is going to take Jack away.

One other thing that occurred to me about Ennis and his questions about Jack's marriage.  I don't think Ennis' question was strictly because he was worried about other people finding out about him and Jack.

In their reunion scene up on the mountain, Ennis tells Jack they can't be together because he (Ennis) had built up a life with Alma and Jack had a wife and a baby in Childress.
Ennis tried hard to stay married to Alma (even though he wanted Jack)  and he also really didn't want to be responsible for Jack's divorce (even though Jack was willing)  Ennis always wanted to do the right thing and in his mind divorce was wrong.  He felt bad about his divorce and he would have also felt guilty for causing Jack to Lureen.

[welshwitch]

Jack tells lies for the same reason that most people do - to avoid difficult topics or situations, to try to avoid upsetting people, to make his own life easier, to make himslef look better. Given the infrequency of their meetings and the prolems inherent in their relationship, it's not surprising he tells lies

[Valandil Eluch]

Jack tells lies for the same reason that most people do - to avoid difficult topics or situations, to try to avoid upsetting people, to make his own life easier, to make himslef look better. Given the infrequency of their meetings and the prolems inherent in their relationship, it's not surprising he tells lies

I know what you mean, however, I still think that the should have told the truth from the beginning instead of having a relationship that even though grew in feeling was deteriorating by their lies.

[aintfoolin]

Somtimes not saying anything could be thought of lying too . Jack never told Ennis about Aguirre spying on them,maybe to spare Ennis more paranoid bouts?

[Valandil Eluch]

Somtimes not saying anything could be thought of lying too . Jack never told Ennis about Aguirre spying on them,maybe to spare Ennis more paranoid bouts?

mmmmm well you got a point them

[welshwitch]

Ennis doesn't lie and he never makes false promises - never even shades the truth. He could easily have said something to Jack about things changing one the child support payments were made, just to make Jack feel a sense of hope.

Because Jack lies, for whatever motive, their relationship is to some degree  - not exactly dishonest but undermined maybe - anyway compromised from the start. And one lie has a tendency to beget another.

[aintfoolin]

And what relationship worth its salt has'nt endured a " little white lie" to spare the other's feelings at one time or another?

[NoReins]

And what relationship worth its salt has'nt endured a " little white lie" to spare the other's feelings at one time or another?

That's what Jack's failure to tell Ennis about what Aguirre saw is, I reckon. He knew it would have destroyed Ennis so he only told him that he'd been back to ask for a job.

[welshwitch]

"Me neither" as a response to "I ain't queer" isn't so much a little white lie, though; it denies something fundamental to the relationship. Jack says it because he knows if he says anything else, ennis will shy away from him. But by saying it he essentially allows Ennis to go on thinking he's "normal" ie not "queer", and go on with his impossible attempt to square the circle.

[aintfoolin]

Are you saying that Ennis is essentilly lying to himself saying he " aint queer? And does Jack knows this? What is Ennis's idea of "queer" ?  He's gotta have some idea. Alot of people I know wonder "if he's not queer then what is he? in light of what had just occurred in the tent. I say he's in denial due to his upbringing, as far as Jack goes he is in love at this point and does'nt want to "spook" Ennis.

[aintfoolin]

But maybe, just maybe since Jack is so much more comfortable with his sexuality, he could have talked to Ennis about this. I think Jack knows he's gay and accepts it. Maybe if he'd done a little more talking to Ennis to help him understand these feelings better Ennis might have loosen up a bit more. Jack is the only one who could've done this though. Found a way to get Ennis to talk . Jack seems to be good at this sort of thing.

[welshwitch]

I suppose neither of them comes from a particlularly communicative culture - we've all been brainwashed by ideas of trauma counseling and confessional TV. In the 60s and in their world people were unlikely to talk things out.

[jesseanne21]

"Me neither" as a response to "I ain't queer" isn't so much a little white lie, though; it denies something fundamental to the relationship. Jack says it because he knows if he says anything else, ennis will shy away from him. But by saying it he essentially allows Ennis to go on thinking he's "normal" ie not "queer", and go on with his impossible attempt to square the circle.

You have to remember this was 1963 Wyoming. 

The US Supreme Court Ruled that sodomy laws (i.e., homosexuality) was unconstitutional on June 26, 2003. 

In Wyoming in 1963 sodomy (between man/woman and/or  man/man) was AGAINST THE LAW and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.  The Wyoming law against sodomy was repealed in 1977.

[aintfoolin]

Jack and Ennis talked about alot personal things, their wives, kids, backgrounds etc.... Why could'nt Jack use that ability to help Ennis open up about his sexual feelings . As I remember young people talked about sex alot in the 60's. Matter of fact there was a sexual revolution. Maybe in their circles this did'nt happen, but for two people who are so close there should have been more talkingand less silence and denial-Culture be damned. Just my opinion.

[Valandil Eluch]

"Me neither" as a response to "I ain't queer" isn't so much a little white lie, though; it denies something fundamental to the relationship. Jack says it because he knows if he says anything else, ennis will shy away from him. But by saying it he essentially allows Ennis to go on thinking he's "normal" ie not "queer", and go on with his impossible attempt to square the circle.

You have to remember this was 1963 Wyoming. 

The US Supreme Court Ruled that sodomy laws (i.e., homosexuality) was unconstitutional on June 26, 2003. 

In Wyoming in 1963 sodomy (between man/woman and/or  man/man) was AGAINST THE LAW and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.  The Wyoming law against sodomy was repealed in 1977.

Did such laws existed in wyoming??? OMG I was unaware of this :S 

[scribe]

I have to defend Jack a bit here.  There's a difference between telling a lie (which he does do sometimes I will admit) and not telling the whole truth (which he does more often).  But in both cases I'm sure he's trying to protect Ennis from information which would hurt him - whch is what we do for people we love.  BTW I love the idea earlier in the thread that Ennis has "a low startle point" - spot on!  Jack just didn't want to get thrown and do more damage to his harmonica!

[welshwitch]

And you can argue just as convincingly that Ennis lied - to himself, by omission or implication to Alma and his daughters, and even to Jack. What was all that about the round-up when Jack appeared after Ennis's divorce? He pulled the same stunt on Alma Jr over her wedding, but by then he'd learned to reconsider his priorities and could evidently ditch the round-up if he chose to.

[Valandil Eluch]

don't say that pls! Ennis was raised like that! his parents died and his brothers mostly threw him away when they got married he was not used to have a bond with anyone or at least admitted until Jack and his daughters appeared. I think that the only times he lied is when he didn't told Jack that Alma Knew about them and that he didn't admitted he missed him when they re-encounter.

[JT]

I think Jack lied mainly to protect Ennis and their relationship.  There are things you just can't say back in '63 in a very conservative part of the US. 

What about Ennis's "This is a one shot thing we got going here" and doing it again the next night?

[welshwitch]

I console myself that he meant "one-shot" as simply between the two of them, not anyone else - what sophistry on my part.

Both of them lied to their wives and families, more by omission than commission, but they were still lying.

[NoReins]

I'm sure that's what Ennis did mean, welshwitch. He didn't say "that was a one shot thing" i.e. a one-off, never to be repeated experience. He said "this is a one shot thing we got going on here" i.e. something between them (which Jack confirms with his "nobody's business but ours") which would continue for as long as they were on the mountain. I don't think he lied there at all...you can't say that he lied because it continued beyond Brokeback, because there's no way Ennis would have anticipated that when he said it.

[BBBOY]

From the short story: "Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable-admissions, decllarations, shames, guilts, fears-rose around them.... and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they's said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

Dear God there are times I can't stand the pain of it.  :\'(