Topic: how many lies were told?

[lancecowboy]

This is a good distinction that you make.  From simple lies come forth great tragedies.  Artists (dramatists in particular) have long known this.  For some of them, they would call it the machinations of fate.  But for others, they explicitly acknowledge that certain things, simply and innocently started, get a life of theri own once they are let loose.  And it magnifies beyond anyone's control.  This is the genesis of true tragedy.

The most excellent example is to be found in the Bard's "King Lear".  To Lear's question, Cordelia answers that most dissembling of lies: "NOTHING".  From this one simple word is born the great tragedy that engulfs them all.

Shakespeare understood life. Othello also had Iago telling a simple lie to lead his captain down the path of self-undoing. Cassius told a simple lie to turn Brutus into betraying his friend. We all know someone who gossip and spread lies. Washington is full of them.

It is sad, that people continue to be drawn willingly into the whirlpools of lies, by not examining what they hear, what they see. If Ennis for once, re-examined the homophobia from his childhood, re-examined the social landscape of his surroundings, not just in Riverton, but further away, say Denver, then he would see that a sweet life with Jack was indeed possible. It was his acceptance of the deceptively authoritative hatred from his father that led him to a tragic end.

A lie is nothing when confronted in the cold light of truth. A lie's power lays in hiding, compartmentalizing the truth.

Once freed from artificial boundaries, truth overpowers lies, every time.

[tpe]

Shakespeare understood life. Othello also had Iago telling a simple lie to lead his captain down the path of self-undoing. Cassius told a simple lie to turn Brutus into betraying his friend. We all know someone who gossip and spread lies. Washington is full of them.

It is sad, that people continue to be drawn willingly into the whirlpools of lies, by not examining what they hear, what they see. If Ennis for once, re-examined the homophobia from his childhood, re-examined the social landscape of his surroundings, not just in Riverton, but further away, say Denver, then he would see that a sweet life with Jack was indeed possible. It was his acceptance of the deceptively authoritative hatred from his father that led him to a tragic end.

A lie is nothing when confronted in the cold light of truth. A lie's power lays in hiding, compartmentalizing the truth.

Once freed from artificial boundaries, truth overpowers lies, every time.

Truth may not come easy -- and there are certainly dire consequences.  But I do agree that it opens the door to possibilities, even as it closes others.

[lancecowboy]

Truth may not come easy -- and there are certainly dire consequences.  But I do agree that it opens the door to possibilities, even as it closes others.

Truth is easy, AND hard. To Jack, the truth of his love for Ennis was a force of nature and irresistible; to Ennis, the truth of his love for Jack was plagued with bigotry, misconceptions, confusion, and surrounded by a wall of HIS OWN doing.

Lies feeds on self-delusions, and trusting others who lie to themselves. All lies come first from self-delusions. That's the Buddhist teaching. To change oneself is both easy AND hard.

It took Ennis a life-time, and a split-second after finding the two shirts, to knock down the fortress that trapped him from Jack.

It can be said, if there was a moment of satori for Ennis, it was in the closet, embracing the two shirts.

I see Ennis in the movie given a chain of awakening, from the collapse in the final confrontation, to the revelation by Cassie at the diner, and finally the discovery in the closet, all of which led Ennis up the rickety staircase with its own rhythm to the satori that freed him from the lies of his father, of society, of his own doing.

Thanks, tpe. These recent discussions are helping me to come to terms with my own satori/epiphany last December.

[tpe]

Truth is easy, AND hard. To Jack, the truth of his love for Ennis was a force of nature and irresistible; to Ennis, the truth of his love for Jack was plagued with bigotry, misconceptions, confusion, and surrounded by a wall of HIS OWN doing.

Lies feeds on self-delusions, and trusting others who lie to themselves. All lies come first from self-delusions. That's the Buddhist teaching. To change oneself is both easy AND hard.

It took Ennis a life-time, and a split-second after finding the two shirts, to knock down the fortress that trapped him from Jack.

It can be said, if there was a moment of satori for Ennis, it was in the closet, embracing the two shirts.

I see Ennis in the movie given a chain of awakening, from the collapse in the final confrontation, to the revelation by Cassie at the diner, and finally the discovery in the closet, all of which led Ennis up the rickety staircase with its own rhythm to the satori that freed him from the lies of his father, of society, of his own doing.

Thanks, tpe. These recent discussions are helping me to come to terms with my own satori/epiphany last December.

And thanks just a powerful image -- up the rickety stairs of discovery!   

What did he anticipate finding?  Or did he anticipate anything?  Was he perhaps anticipating things kept hidden from him by Jack?  Somehow, I don't think he did...

[lancecowboy]

And thanks just a powerful image -- up the rickety stairs of discovery!   

What did he anticipate finding?  Or did he anticipate anything?  Was he perhaps anticipating things kept hidden from him by Jack?  Somehow, I don't think he did...

You are welcome, but the credit belongs to Annie Proulx, who built the staircase in the short story, to have Ennis thinking about the bedroom that Jack's Ma kept it like when he was a boy. With each step on the stairs, Ennis was probably thinking, what was he like...what would I find. The genius that was Heath made the staircase the prelude to the powerful scene in the bedroom, all the subtext without words, all the meaning without speech...the longing for Jack...fulfilled when he discovered the shirts, and embraced them.

Thank you, Annie Proulx. Thank you, Heath.

[athena0204]

In trying to figure out why Jack told that lie about the foreman's wife, I've always seen it this way. I think he told the lie because he was afraid Ennis would be upset at Jack being with another man, but if Ennis thought the person Jack was with was a woman, it wouldn't upset him. Jack knew Ennis loved him, it would mean something different to Ennis if he said I'm seeing another man, but in saying it was a woman, he figured Ennis wouldn't care, because they both kept up facades in having relationships with women and they both knew those relationships didn't mean anything. I believe he was afraid that Ennis would think Jack didn't love him (even though Ennis probably wouldn't say it out loud) if Jack was basically being unfaithful to Ennis with other men. It would hurt Ennis, because I think Jack knew that Ennis knew he was Jack's true love. As for Ennis lying to Jack, I can only think of the time when he told him he was putting the moves or something on Cassie, when in truth, it was Cassie who was pursuing him, and Ennis just wanted her to leave him alone from the beginning.

[tpe]

Yes, I think that Jack understood that to admit to a more sustained relationship with another man would hurt Ennis.  I think that Jack himself probably felt ambivalent about his relationship with Randall -- at least, before the Last Confrontation.  Why did he pursue it then?  I think it was because of the growing uncertainly of ever getting Ennis to commit to a Sweet Life.   Ennis just had to say "yes" and everything else would not have mattered an iota to Jack.  Perhaps Jack "justified" the "lie" by his realization that on the scale of his affections, nothing else would come in the way of his love for Ennis, even as he grew increasingly frustrated of what he thought was Ennis's  refusal to take their love to the next level.

[lancecowboy]

Yes, I think that Jack understood that to admit to a more sustained relationship with another man would hurt Ennis.  I think that Jack himself probably felt ambivalent about his relationship with Randall -- at least, before the Last Confrontation.  Why did he pursue it then?  I think it was because of the growing uncertainly of ever getting Ennis to commit to a Sweet Life.   Ennis just had to say "yes" and everything else would not have mattered an iota to Jack.  Perhaps Jack "justified" the "lie" by his realization that on the scale of his affections, nothing else would come in the way of his love for Ennis, even as he grew increasingly frustrated of what he thought was Ennis's  refusal to take their love to the next level.

Although I agree with you regarding Jack "settling" for Randall because he felt Ennis was out of reach from the sweet life, I disagree with you regarding Jack's lying to justify his affections.

I am not sure what you are refering to in this. I thought the lies were to Alma and Loreen, to society in general, and to each other.

Perhaps it would be helpful if we itemize the lies.

Specifically, athena was referring to Jack hiding his indiscretions with Randall (which, by the way, is not definitively stated in the movie, but potentially mere speculations on Ennis' part). And also the lie by omission regarding his ventures into Mexico.

The second lie, by omission, depending how many other times since the divorce scene, may be justified by Jack in his own mind, due to the humiliation he suffered after the divorce. It was like payback, and we can see his increasing anger in their meets...finally coming to the surface at the final confrontation.

The first lie, as someone already pointed out, could be for two reasons, one was Jack's fear that telling Ennis there was another man may get Ennis jealous and he didn't want to lose Ennis. Since Ennis was so angry about Mexico, he was correct in his estimation of Ennis. The other reason was also from the same knowledge, that he knew Ennis would be hurt by his infidelity and in his own way, he was hiding the fact to protect Ennis from getting hurt.

It just occurred to me, that there may be another reason. If Jack admitted to Randall, the logical question would be the one he asked Ennis, "You never found another to marry?" "You ever found another for the sweet life?" "What are your intentions with this fellow, Randall?" It puts their relationship under the spotlight, and Jack may not have been ready to lose Ennis and settle with Randall. Indeed, he may not have been sure about Randall, or worse he knew Randall wasn't going to settle on the Twist Ranch with him either. Afterall, Randall was just as happy with his nice life in Texas as Jack was. So the lie about Randall was Jack's way of having his cake and eat it, too.

The lies to Alma and Loreen were bad enough, having been forced on them by society's homophobia.

The lies to each other are simply sad, making a difficult situation even worse.

Jack was AFRAID to be honest with Ennis because he was afraid of losing him. Out of the original homophobic fear, more fears arose to weave a web that trapped them both.

[tpe]

The "lie" I refer to here is Jack's statement about the ranch foreman's wife. 

Some people have of course said that perhaps Jack did indeed have an affair with Randall's wife -- in part, to cover up his relationship with Randall.  But for me, it is a classic case of gender inversion or transposition in the manner of Proust -- inverting the gender of the supposed lover to cover up the true nature of the relationship.  Whatever the intention, we see in that part of the scene what I think is a veiled and indirect admission by Jack to Ennis that his relationship with Randall was rooted in his loneliness.

Tell you what . . .  Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

[lancecowboy]

The "lie" I refer to here is Jack's statement about the ranch foreman's wife. 

Some people have of course said that perhaps Jack did indeed have an affair with Randall's wife -- in part, to cover up his relationship with Randall.  But for me, it is a classic case of gender inversion or transposition in the manner of Proust -- inverting the gender of the supposed lover to cover up the true nature of the relationship.  Whatever the intention, we see in that part of the scene what I think is a veiled and indirect admission by Jack to Ennis that his relationship with Randall was rooted in his loneliness.

Tell you what . . .  Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

I think it is a lot simpler than that.

I think Jack wanted to tell Ennis, to say I need you so much I'd settle for a substitute, this fella as reticent as you, but changed his mind at the last minute, because he was afraid Ennis may not take it too kindly. Jack's instincts were proven right in the last confrontation. Ennis may not admit to being queer, but he was mighty jealous sharing Jack with another man.

[tpe]

I think it is a lot simpler than that.

I think Jack wanted to tell Ennis, to say I need you so much I'd settle for a substitute, this fella as reticent as you, but changed his mind at the last minute, because he was afraid Ennis may not take it too kindly. Jack's instincts were proven right in the last confrontation. Ennis may not admit to being queer, but he was mighty jealous sharing Jack with another man.

But do you think that he actually had an affair with Lashawn?   Or was Jack in fact making a veiled reference to his relationship with Randall?

I've always wondered about this scene.

[lancecowboy]

But do you think that he actually had an affair with Lashawn?   Or was Jack in fact making a veiled reference to his relationship with Randall?

I've always wondered about this scene.

I don't think Jack is capable of having an affair with Lashawn. Just my own opinion.

We don't know too much about Randall and Lashawn. The deleted scene shows Randall meeting with Jack. Randall also talked about going up to the cabin, but that may be just good neighbourly talk, since Jack helped them out of a jam. It's not a good idea to read too much into a tiny incident. Then again, back in those days of swinging 70s and 80's, many straight couples subscribe to the idea of threesomes, so it's not out of the question for Jack to get involved with Randall AND LaShawn. FanFic material abounds here.

Personally, I don't find that avenue worth exploring. But feel free to dive in.

[tpe]

I don't think Jack is capable of having an affair with Lashawn. Just my own opinion.

We don't know too much about Randall and Lashawn. The deleted scene shows Randall meeting with Jack. Randall also talked about going up to the cabin, but that may be just good neighbourly talk, since Jack helped them out of a jam. It's not a good idea to read too much into a tiny incident. Then again, back in those days of swinging 70s and 80's, many straight couples subscribe to the idea of threesomes, so it's not out of the question for Jack to get involved with Randall AND LaShawn. FanFic material abounds here.

Personally, I don't find that avenue worth exploring. But feel free to dive in.

   What an interesting thing to bring up, lance!  Yes, I am not so sure if THAT avenue is worth exploring any further.  But I do find the suggestion QUITE interesting!

I lean the same way -- that jack was perhaps not capable of having an affair with Lashawn.  Still, it would have provided a conveninet cover.  But THAT must have been too much work!  And what would Randall have thought, had he found out or known about it?

[lancecowboy]

  What an interesting thing to bring up, lance!  Yes, I am not so sure if THAT avenue is worth exploring any further.  But I do find the suggestion QUITE interesting!

I lean the same way -- that jack was perhaps not capable of having an affair with Lashawn.  Still, it would have provided a conveninet cover.  But THAT must have been too much work!  And what would Randall have thought, had he found out or known about it?

You all inspire me. These possibilities just present themselves when I click Reply.

Like I said, I don't find that avenue worth exploring, but I won't set up any road blocks to stop others.

[tpe]

You all inspire me. These possibilities just present themselves when I click Reply.

Like I said, I don't find that avenue worth exploring, but I won't set up any road blocks to stop others.

Well, the relationship between Lashawn, Randall, and Jack remains as tricky as it is murky.  For me, this is one of the big question marks of the plot.  Quite mysterious and tantalizing.

[lancecowboy]

Well, the relationship between Lashawn, Randall, and Jack remains as tricky as it is murky.  For me, this is one of the big question marks of the plot.  Quite mysterious and tantalizing.

I believe the scene with Jack and Randall at the gas station was deleted with the very intention to leave their relationship ambiguous, as it is in the short story.

Sometimes, less is more. Brokeback Mountains has shown that to great effects.

[tpe]

I believe the scene with Jack and Randall at the gas station was deleted with the very intention to leave their relationship ambiguous, as it is in the short story.

Sometimes, less is more. Brokeback Mountains has shown that to great effects.

Exactly.  And I do believe that it was the right choice.  In the case of BBM, less is indeed more!

[lancecowboy]

I never thought much about the relationship between Ennis and Alma, until now, after watching a number of shows, with men who have girlfriends, coming out.

Verbotene Liebe - Christian has a girl friend before meeting Olli
Alles was Zählt - Deniz switching to a girl friend after coming out
Gute Zeiten Schlechte Zeiten - Lenny has a girl friend and then discovering his attraction to a best friend
EastEnders - Syed has a finance and then he falls for Christian

And of course, there is Ennis with Alma, and come to think of it, Zach with his on again off again girl friend of many years in Shelters.

It would be easy to dismiss all of these relationships as gay men who deny their true feelings, as beards, as conforming to social pressure. Perhaps watching the shows, each with more time devoted to these relationships, not just the gay ones, made me realize that circumstances are not always so simple, black-white. Feelings are not always easy to understand in the best of times, and especially confusing during those times of transitions, of finding new love, forbidden love, alien love. It is not enough to say simply that Ennis lied to himself and Alma after that summer on Brokeback Mountain. Sometimes, it is not a lie, when someone doesn't know what is the truth.

What it amounts to, I guess, is my sympathy to Ennis and the rest, when they are faced with a more difficult decision than other gay men, who have no ambiguous feelings at all.

Having said that, I still think it was lie, when Ennis told Alma that Jack was just a fishing buddy. 

"You don't go up there to fish, Ennis."

[athena0204]

About Jack's relationship with Randall though, remember what John Twist told Ennis about how Jack had recently mentioned bringing this other guy from Texas after all these years of talking about bringing Ennis Del Mar. This heavily implies that it was indeed Randall, not LaShawn that Jack was having the affair with. I honestly don't really think there's much of a question about the person Jack was really seeing in Texas. I do believe that was definitely a lie on Jack's part that he was having an affair with the "foreman's wife", even the way he says it you can tell he's lying. He obviously didn't want Ennis to know that he's been seeing another man, because that would hurt Ennis very much. I don't think the whole Randall thing is meant to be as mysterious as it seems, I think it's pretty straightforward. And Ennis truly did lie to himself when he married Alma. In the short story, he even flat-out tells Jack that he'd known he should have never let him drive away that last day. He was lying to himself by going on and marrying Alma and pretending to be something he isn't but he truly felt he had no other choice. He knew he would be miserable living that lie, but what else could he do? It was the only safe way in his mind. And definitely Ennis's "fishing buddy" story, which obviously didn't do much good since Alma saw from the first day what was really going on there. Ennis was naive to think that Alma actually bought that story all those years. He was so careless about hiding his relationship with Jack from her, that she would have had to have been deaf and blind to not know what was going on with him and Jack.

[lancecowboy]

About Jack's relationship with Randall though, remember what John Twist told Ennis about how Jack had recently mentioned bringing this other guy from Texas after all these years of talking about bringing Ennis Del Mar. This heavily implies that it was indeed Randall, not LaShawn that Jack was having the affair with. I honestly don't really think there's much of a question about the person Jack was really seeing in Texas. I do believe that was definitely a lie on Jack's part that he was having an affair with the "foreman's wife", even the way he says it you can tell he's lying. He obviously didn't want Ennis to know that he's been seeing another man, because that would hurt Ennis very much. I don't think the whole Randall thing is meant to be as mysterious as it seems, I think it's pretty straightforward.

I agree with you that indeed it was Randall that Jack was seeing in Texas. But the ambiguity that I spoke of, was referring to the cause of Jack's death: was it an accident or murder? To Ennis, it was surely the tire iron.

As for Jack lying to Ennis about it, it's simply an extension of what he had been doing, lying or rather omitting to tell the truth, about Mexico. He felt it was justified, as pay-back after the incident at the divorce scene. And by the time Randall came along, the bitterly frustrated Jack felt he was justified there, too.

And Ennis truly did lie to himself when he married Alma. In the short story, he even flat-out tells Jack that he'd known he should have never let him drive away that last day. He was lying to himself by going on and marrying Alma and pretending to be something he isn't but he truly felt he had no other choice. He knew he would be miserable living that lie, but what else could he do? It was the only safe way in his mind.

I think Ennis didn't realize what Jack meant to him until about a year later, so he was already married by the time he figured out the truth. You can also see the change in him, from the frolicking good times in the snow during the honeymoon phase, to the next year, in the drive-in, and the next summer. He married Alma simply because that's what he planned, and he didn't understand until too late that he should never have let Jack outa his sight.

And definitely Ennis's "fishing buddy" story, which obviously didn't do much good since Alma saw from the first day what was really going on there. Ennis was naive to think that Alma actually bought that story all those years. He was so careless about hiding his relationship with Jack from her, that she would have had to have been deaf and blind to not know what was going on with him and Jack.

I think he felt the marriage was a trap that he couldn't get out of. Remember, back in 'em days in rural Wyoming, people simple don't get divorced. Some may walk off and go away, leaving behind wive and kids, but most men stuck with it. Ennis probably was subconsciously careless to get Alma to divorce him. He refused to apply for the job at the power company. That was the last straw for her. And Ennis got his wish. Problem was, his subconscious never figured on Child Support, or the custody with the kids. So that cut into his days with Jack. He was even more miserable than if he were to work for the power company, and spend the generous vacation time with Jack. Dumbass.  

[rimasworld]

Exactly.  And I do believe that it was the right choice.  In the case of BBM, less is indeed more!

I'm glad that scene wasn't in the movie too, but I kind of think maybe it would have been interesting to see a little more of Jack & Randall like they did with Ennis & Cassie. Not anything real sexual (ick, I just can't go there) but maybe just more interacting among the 2 men to see more of what their thing was about? I go back and forth with this way of thinking. Sometimes I just want to block Randall out completely  

[tpe]

***

What it amounts to, I guess, is my sympathy to Ennis and the rest, when they are faced with a more difficult decision than other gay men, who have no ambiguous feelings at all.

Having said that, I still think it was lie, when Ennis told Alma that Jack was just a fishing buddy. 

"You don't go up there to fish, Ennis."

I agree.  In spite of the lie, Ennis (for me) remains a very sympathetic figure on this regard.   I recall the Blake adage that goes: "A truth that's said with bad intent | beats all the lies you can invent."  Although it is very possible that part of Ennis's motivation was selfish, I also can't help thinking that for his at that moment, the truth was just too difficult to deal with with Alma in the mix.

[tpe]

I'm glad that scene wasn't in the movie too, but I kind of think maybe it would have been interesting to see a little more of Jack & Randall like they did with Ennis & Cassie. Not anything real sexual (ick, I just can't go there) but maybe just more interacting among the 2 men to see more of what their thing was about? I go back and forth with this way of thinking. Sometimes I just want to block Randall out completely  

True.  This is a good point.  I suspect that Ang Lee and the script writers found this too difficult to deal with.  This being said, not developing it deepens the mystery surrounding the older Jack...

[tpe]

About Jack's relationship with Randall though, remember what John Twist told Ennis about how Jack had recently mentioned bringing this other guy from Texas after all these years of talking about bringing Ennis Del Mar. This heavily implies that it was indeed Randall, not LaShawn that Jack was having the affair with. I honestly don't really think there's much of a question about the person Jack was really seeing in Texas. I do believe that was definitely a lie on Jack's part that he was having an affair with the "foreman's wife", even the way he says it you can tell he's lying. He obviously didn't want Ennis to know that he's been seeing another man, because that would hurt Ennis very much. I don't think the whole Randall thing is meant to be as mysterious as it seems, I think it's pretty straightforward. And Ennis truly did lie to himself when he married Alma. In the short story, he even flat-out tells Jack that he'd known he should have never let him drive away that last day. He was lying to himself by going on and marrying Alma and pretending to be something he isn't but he truly felt he had no other choice. He knew he would be miserable living that lie, but what else could he do? It was the only safe way in his mind. And definitely Ennis's "fishing buddy" story, which obviously didn't do much good since Alma saw from the first day what was really going on there. Ennis was naive to think that Alma actually bought that story all those years. He was so careless about hiding his relationship with Jack from her, that she would have had to have been deaf and blind to not know what was going on with him and Jack.

Well, personally, I do feel that it was indeed Randall, although there is really nothing really definitive in the final cut of the movie.   There is a strong suggestion -- but a suggestion, nonetheless. 

As far as "mystery" is concerned, the fact that we know almost nothing about the relationship between Randall and Jack is mystery enough for me...   Remember that in the final cut of the movie, we don't even know if he figured in Jack's death...

[lancecowboy]

I agree.  In spite of the lie, Ennis (for me) remains a very sympathetic figure on this regard.   I recall the Blake adage that goes: "A truth that's said with bad intent | beats all the lies you can invent."  Although it is very possible that part of Ennis's motivation was selfish, I also can't help thinking that for his at that moment, the truth was just too difficult to deal with with Alma in the mix.

I'm not sure which lie you refer to here. If you are referring to the lie about Jack being a fishing buddy, then I disagree.

I believe Ennis should have told Alma that he and Jack worked together one summer on Brokeback Mountain herding sheep. In fact, he could have told her that it was the money from the summer that helped him pay for the wedding. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem, of course, is his own fears, of revealing what happened with Jack that summer. It is as if, Ennis locked Jack away in a separate compartment away from his real life, so that in his mind, Jack really existed as his fishing buddy from long ago. Unfortunately, that compartmentalization mechanism also locked him into seeing Jack only a few times a year, instead of facing the truth, and having the sweet life.

I've always liked Blake, especially that particular poem.

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

A robin redbreast in a cage
Puts all heaven in a rage.
...

I never went much further than that in the past. Thanks for reminding me. A few lines below that adage, is something that applies very well to PBS:

Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine.
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.

[myprivatejack]

Well, personally, I do feel that it was indeed Randall, although there is really nothing really definitive in the final cut of the movie.   There is a strong suggestion -- but a suggestion, nonetheless. 

As far as "mystery" is concerned, the fact that we know almost nothing about the relationship between Randall and Jack is mystery enough for me...   Remember that in the final cut of the movie, we don't even know if he figured in Jack's death...

I agree. And I agree too with your former post,when you said that not developing the possible relationship between Jack and Randall,deepens the mystery surrounding the older Jack...Letting aside the fact that surely script writers didn't want to show it too clearly for maybe a "romantic" reason-Randall isn't a figure who many Brokies emphatyse with as to see him making love to Jack...-; the mystery of their relationship and of his character himself creates a greater number of questions to ask around Jack's life and death,the future of his relationship with Ennis,his own feelings,and so on.I don't think this has happenned by chance.

[rimasworld]

I agree. And I agree too with your former post,when you said that not developing the possible relationship between Jack and Randall,deepens the mystery surrounding the older Jack...Letting aside the fact that surely script writers didn't want to show it too clearly for maybe a "romantic" reason-Randall isn't a figure who many Brokies emphatyse with as to see him making love to Jack...-; the mystery of their relationship and of his character himself creates a greater number of questions to ask around Jack's life and death,the future of his relationship with Ennis,his own feelings,and so on.I don't think this has happenned by chance.

Yes, so much mystery makes you go over & over things in your mind.. all the what if's and different scenarios in so many parts of the movie. thus makes brokeback mountain so wonderful and truly a classic in every shape and form.

[tpe]

I'm not sure which lie you refer to here. If you are referring to the lie about Jack being a fishing buddy, then I disagree.

I believe Ennis should have told Alma that he and Jack worked together one summer on Brokeback Mountain herding sheep. In fact, he could have told her that it was the money from the summer that helped him pay for the wedding. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem, of course, is his own fears, of revealing what happened with Jack that summer. It is as if, Ennis locked Jack away in a separate compartment away from his real life, so that in his mind, Jack really existed as his fishing buddy from long ago. Unfortunately, that compartmentalization mechanism also locked him into seeing Jack only a few times a year, instead of facing the truth, and having the sweet life.

I've always liked Blake, especially that particular poem.

I have always wondered myself why he just didn't tell her about meeting Jack during the summer of 63.  Perhaps he was just to paranoid to let anything out regarding Jack and himself?  I wonder myself whether this lie was really necessary...

[tpe]

I agree. And I agree too with your former post,when you said that not developing the possible relationship between Jack and Randall,deepens the mystery surrounding the older Jack...Letting aside the fact that surely script writers didn't want to show it too clearly for maybe a "romantic" reason-Randall isn't a figure who many Brokies emphatyse with as to see him making love to Jack...-; the mystery of their relationship and of his character himself creates a greater number of questions to ask around Jack's life and death,the future of his relationship with Ennis,his own feelings,and so on.I don't think this has happenned by chance.

A very good point, indeed.  I do think that revealing more about the relatuionship would have provoked mixed feelings with the audience, and perhaps reaise more questions than answers -- answers that probably couldn't be answered in a 2 hour film...

[myprivatejack]

A very good point, indeed.  I do think that revealing more about the relatuionship would have provoked mixed feelings with the audience, and perhaps reaise more questions than answers -- answers that probably couldn't be answered in a 2 hour film...

  Thomas ¡ I also believe that being too clear in showing their relationship would have been taken like a "treason" for many of us,in all the senses of the word...Moreover,in this way,our minds and feelings get free to imagine and give an answer,that could be very different according to the viewer.As a matter of fact,almost everything in Jack's life and specially death,is open enough...