Author Topic: The Ennis Quote of I Can't Stand This Anymore (Read 101224 times)

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #150 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 09:01 AM »

Quote from: Rosie on Jul 20, 2006, 07:23 AM

Quote
I hope I've inserted your above quote NoReins (but I know I probably haven't - I'm useless at this) but I just wanted to say that I agree with you. I do think that once Ennis had had time to realise that he might lose Jack to someone else who could give him more it would be shock enough to make him stop in his tracks as you say. He had all that time to wonder what Jack was doing now, now that he knew that he did go to Mexico etc., and surely the jealousy would be eating him up. That might be why he sends the postcard about meeting again in November, to make sure Jack knows that he can stand it, he will be there, he wants to see Jack. Even knowing about some of the rest. Maybe letting him know that he was accepting that they would have to talk and make some serious changes. So I'm with you. Maybe we're both just old romantics at heart!

If Jack had told Ennis that he planned to move to Lightning Flat with Randall, that might have made Ennis realise that things had to change. I still don't believe that Jack meant it about moving in with Randall,I think he was just saying it out of desperation, but if he had said it to Ennis, rather than his dad, basically given Ennis an ultimatum, "if you won't be with me, I know someone who will", I don't think Ennis could've coped with that. It's one thing for Jack to meet Ennis behind Lureen's back, but I can't see Ennis being able to handle meeting Jack for their fishing trips and then Jack going home to another guy. Of course, it could have back-fired, and Ennis might have ended it for good, but I like to think it would have had the opposite effect. After Jack's confession about Mexico, Ennis would've put 2 and 2 together, and realised that the "ranch foreman's wife" was actually just the ranch foreman, but probably thought, or wanted to believe, it was just about sex, if he thought it was more than that, I think he would've been forced to do something about it. If only Jack hadn't died... :\'( :\'( :\'(

NoReins · « **Reply #151 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 12:02 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 08:57 AM

Another thing s that neither apparently tries to get in touch with the other for some time after this. I know we don't know when Jack dies, but it's likely not immediately as he goes to Lightning Flat, gets back to Childress, etc., and there would have been time for either one to send a postcard. So maybe they were both waiting, afraid to make the first move, then Ennis does and it's too late.

I don't think that's so surprising though. Ennis sends the postcard to organise their meeting in November - because that's when he told Jack he'd be able to get away again. Presumably they didn't communicate about anything else by postcard (other than Ennis's divorce) and, even if they had, I can't see either of them being willing or able to discuss something as important as the state of their relationship by postcard.

welshwitch · « **Reply #152 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 12:07 PM »

No, I didn;t expect them to discuss their relationship on a postcard that could be read by anyone whop handled it! I simply thought that one of the other might have sent a sort of "Still OK for November?" type message as a peace overture.

NoReins · « **Reply #153 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 12:54 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 12:07 PM

No, I didn;t expect them to discuss their relationship on a postcard that could be read by anyone whop handled it! I simply thought that one of the other might have sent a sort of "Still OK for November?" type message as a peace overture.

Ah, fair enough. I guess that's plausible then

edgar · « **Reply #154 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 02:14 PM »

One thing Ennis can't stand anymore is getting off work two or three times a year, for a week at a time, without some compelling explanation.

Ennis doesn't like to talk anyway, and to explain to the foreman that he needs a week off for a "f***ing trip" (let the reader understand) in the mountains would be odd. Then to explain he needs another week off... then to compromise and say, okay; then november.... This is all very difficult for Ennis, who has fears that "everyone knows" about their relationship. And in fact, I imagine the ranch foreman would think it odd, and might even suspect something .... fishy.

Remember, in the past, Ennis would quit the jobs rather than have to talk, even in the most oblique terms, about his relationship with Jack. Of course, he could lie, but that's not exactly his style.

Little by little, starting with the "Thanksgiving from Hell" scene, Ennis is forced to actually think about and deal with his relationship with Jack. And he is basically incapable of doing so.... so he says, "I can't stand this anymore."

monicita · « **Reply #155 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 07:58 AM »

I like that: He can't stand it any more, because otherwise he would have to come to terms with being gay and that is impossible. He could never accept it. An interesting question is, whether one can call somebody gay who has only ever had sex with and loved one single man (this is made even clearer in the short story). Maybe what he can't stand is love itself: The kind of burning, passionate love, that makes you come out of your shell, that you can't escape from. Is the main problem for him social ostracism or his inability to face his own emotional inner life? I would say it is both, and he may not even be aware of their being more than one side to his problem...

monicita

welshwitch · « **Reply #156 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 11:18 AM »

Ennis likes to be in charge, competent, on top of things ( no pun intended!) and not out of control. To be passionaely in love is also to be dominated by uncontrollable emotion, and also to be dominated by the thought of someone else, their needs, their emotions. Ennis doesn't do that because h isn't capable of it. That there are " no reins on this one" is
one of the things he finds hard to stand.

keren_b · « **Reply #157 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 01:16 PM »

Quote from: monicita on Jul 21, 2006, 07:58 AM

An interesting question is, whether one can call somebody gay who has only ever had sex with and loved one single man (this is made even clearer in the short story)

I'd say definitely yes. Ennis may have loved and had sex with only one man, but he loved him and was attracted to him more than he was with any woman in his life. No woman had evoked such intense feelings of love and passion in him as Jack did. can't someone just know that he's gay even if he's still a virgin? the only true love and desire in Ennis's life was with another man. that speaks for itself, I think.

monicita · « **Reply #158 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 03:34 AM »

I think you're right, Keren. If being gay is defined by who you love (truly), then he is gay. That, of course, begs the question of his love for Alma: Was that "real" love or just a convention? How many kinds of love are there anyway, and is one more legitimate than others? And one more question: are you gay when you define yourself as gay, or if you fit into a certain pattern (because, let's face it: if it is about who has sex with people of what gender how often, then we might just as well say he was bi). Hm. I'm still a bit confused.

monicita

gimmejack · « **Reply #159 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 04:09 AM »

Monicita, OT I know, but everybody has their opinions about the labeling issue. Ennis is definetely bisexual, so is Jack for that matter. They have sex with both genders. To me, it is simple as that. If they were exclusive with their own gender, that's a different story. I think Jack later in life became gay...of course that's a whole nother topic!

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #160 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 08:24 AM »

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 24, 2006, 04:09 AM

Monicita, OT I know, but everybody has their opinions about the labeling issue. Ennis is definetely bisexual, so is Jack for that matter. They have sex with both genders. To me, it is simple as that. If they were exclusive with their own gender, that's a different story. I think Jack later in life became gay...of course that's a whole nother topic!

I'm not sure it's that simple, I think you have to look at the reasons why they had sex with women, which imo, was to hide their homosexuality, and to prove to themselves(well, in Ennis's case at least), and the world in general, that they were straight. If they had lived in this day and age, they probably wouldn't have bothered with the pretence, especially Jack, but things were different then. I don't think either of them particularly wanted to have sex with women, it's just something they felt they had to do. I've only had relationships with men, never felt any kind of sexual attraction for women, but if I lived in some parallell universe, where being gay was the "norm", and I had to hide the fact I fancied men, I could probably have sex with a woman, and enjoy it on some level, but it wouldn't mean I was a lesbian, or even bisexual. Or would it?

Ahdunno...

Human sexuality is too complicated to put into categories, imo

smilesalot · « **Reply #161 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 09:21 AM »

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm coming into it late but... I think what Ennis can't stand is the constant conflict and turmoil in his life. The incredible ups and downs. He takes low-paying jobs because he has to be able to quit so's he can spend time with Jack. He can't give himself completely to Cassie because she's not Jack. He can't give himself completely to Jack because he's too afraid to take the risks Jack wants him to take. Even with his kids ...he loves them but he can't see them sometimes because of work. He's so damned happy when he and Jack are together, and so damned sad when their week is up. And then, of course, he finds out Jack is seeing other men. Ennis must have stood there and seen his miserable life and realized that the one bright spot in it was starting to fade away into bitterness and disillusionment.
So the "this" in "I can't stand this anymore" was a culmination of everything just erupting. What kind of life did he really have? What kind of man was he really? He had nothing to show for those endless jobs, and the lies, and the deceit, and the doing without, and the deep and utter loneliness. He was nothing. He was nowhere.
Of course, what happens after he collapses into Jack's arms would be an interesting thread. I know I've seen the thread and the "what happens after" has been the focus of some fanfic. Because, of course, after this moment of illumination, the question is whether Ennis changes from it, or hides from it.

jeffjoe · « **Reply #162 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 12:35 PM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 24, 2006, 09:21 AM

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm coming into it late but... I think what Ennis can't stand is the constant conflict and turmoil in his life. The incredible ups and downs. He takes low-paying jobs because he has to be able to quit so's he can spend time with Jack. He can't give himself completely to Cassie because she's not Jack. He can't give himself completely to Jack because he's too afraid to take the risks Jack wants him to take. Even with his kids ...he loves them but he can't see them sometimes because of work. He's so damned happy when he and Jack are together, and so damned sad when their week is up. And then, of course, he finds out Jack is seeing other men. Ennis must have stood there and seen his miserable life and realized that the one bright spot in it was starting to fade away into bitterness and disillusionment.
So the "this" in "I can't stand this anymore" was a culmination of everything just erupting. What kind of life did he really have? What kind of man was he really? He had nothing to show for those endless jobs, and the lies, and the deceit, and the doing without, and the deep and utter loneliness. He was nothing. He was nowhere.
Of course, what happens after he collapses into Jack's arms would be an interesting thread. I know I've seen the thread and the "what happens after" has been the focus of some fanfic. Because, of course, after this moment of illumination, the question is whether Ennis changes from it, or hides from it.

Beautiful post

and and an interesting theory

gimmejack · « **Reply #163 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 02:58 PM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Jul 24, 2006, 08:24 AM

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 24, 2006, 04:09 AM
Monicita, OT I know, but everybody has their opinions about the labeling issue. Ennis is definetely bisexual, so is Jack for that matter. They have sex with both genders. To me, it is simple as that. If they were exclusive with their own gender, that's a different story. I think Jack later in life became gay...of course that's a whole nother topic!

I'm not sure it's that simple, I think you have to look at the reasons why they had sex with women, which imo, was to hide their homosexuality, and to prove to themselves(well, in Ennis's case at least), and the world in general, that they were straight. If they had lived in this day and age, they probably wouldn't have bothered with the pretence, especially Jack, but things were different then. I don't think either of them particularly wanted to have sex with women, it's just something they felt they had to do. I've only had relationships with men, never felt any kind of sexual attraction for women, but if I lived in some parallell universe, where being gay was the "norm", and I had to hide the fact I fancied men, I could probably have sex with a woman, and enjoy it on some level, but it wouldn't mean I was a lesbian, or even bisexual. Or would it? Ahdunno... Human sexuality is too complicated to put into categories, imo

Too complicated indeed...So Ennis wasnt attracted to Alma prior to Jack???

gimmejack · « **Reply #164 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 03:03 PM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 24, 2006, 09:21 AM

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm coming into it late but... I think what Ennis can't stand is the constant conflict and turmoil in his life. The incredible ups and downs. He takes low-paying jobs because he has to be able to quit so's he can spend time with Jack. He can't give himself completely to Cassie because she's not Jack. He can't give himself completely to Jack because he's too afraid to take the risks Jack wants him to take. Even with his kids ...he loves them but he can't see them sometimes because of work. He's so damned happy when he and Jack are together, and so damned sad when their week is up. And then, of course, he finds out Jack is seeing other men. Ennis must have stood there and seen his miserable life and realized that the one bright spot in it was starting to fade away into bitterness and disillusionment.
So the "this" in "I can't stand this anymore" was a culmination of everything just erupting. What kind of life did he really have? What kind of man was he really? He had nothing to show for those endless jobs, and the lies, and the deceit, and the doing without, and the deep and utter loneliness. He was nothing. He was nowhere.
Of course, what happens after he collapses into Jack's arms would be an interesting thread. I know I've seen the thread and the "what happens after" has been the focus of some fanfic. Because, of course, after this moment of illumination, the question is whether Ennis changes from it, or hides from it.

I believe Ennis was coming around...The request for the November visit proves it. Even after finding out about all those things he didn't know. Everything was out on the table and none of that mattered. He still wanted Jack in his arms.

I believe there may be a post that addresses this... "WAS ENNIS COMING AROUND?" or something to that effect.

I hope that's what you were thinking of...

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #165 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 03:36 PM »

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 24, 2006, 02:58 PM

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Jul 24, 2006, 08:24 AM
Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 24, 2006, 04:09 AM
Monicita, OT I know, but everybody has their opinions about the labeling issue. Ennis is definetely bisexual, so is Jack for that matter. They have sex with both genders. To me, it is simple as that. If they were exclusive with their own gender, that's a different story. I think Jack later in life became gay...of course that's a whole nother topic!

I'm not sure it's that simple, I think you have to look at the reasons why they had sex with women, which imo, was to hide their homosexuality, and to prove to themselves(well, in Ennis's case at least), and the world in general, that they were straight. If they had lived in this day and age, they probably wouldn't have bothered with the pretence, especially Jack, but things were different then. I don't think either of them particularly wanted to have sex with women, it's just something they felt they had to do. I've only had relationships with men, never felt any kind of sexual attraction for women, but if I lived in some parallell universe, where being gay was the "norm", and I had to hide the fact I fancied men, I could probably have sex with a woman, and enjoy it on some level, but it wouldn't mean I was a lesbian, or even bisexual. Or would it? Ahdunno... Human sexuality is too complicated to put into categories, imo
Too complicated indeed...So Ennis wasnt attracted to Alma prior to Jack???

Good question! Tbh, I can't see any attraction between them, I can with Jack and Lureen, but not Ennis and Alma. I can't figure out how they even got together in the first place, neither seems like the sort that would make a move on someone (I don't mean sexually, just getting talking even)

(Sorry, this is way ot :-[)

lamusica · « **Reply #166 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 03:56 PM »

I like what you have to say, smilesalot. I think the strain of just keeping a secret -- especially a BIG one like Ennis was keeping -- takes a big toll on the person holding it. Everything he says and does has to be weighed against that secret. He can't let anything about Jack slip into his daily conversation with anyone. He can't ever tell anyone about the love of his life -- how he feels about Jack. That's a hell of a strain. When your life is so messed up, as you pointed out above, and you carry such a secret, you're bound to crack somewhere along the line. The only place he could crack was with Jack, so he does in their last scene together. I think Jack knows what it is that Ennis can't stand any longer. He, too, has the secret. While he may go with other men, he never tells them about his love for Ennis. I' doubt if love is EVER mentioned by Jack to anyone, except maybe to Lureen in their earliest days.

smilesalot · « **Reply #167 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 11:43 PM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jul 24, 2006, 03:56 PM

I like what you have to say, smilesalot. I think the strain of just keeping a secret -- especially a BIG one like Ennis was keeping -- takes a big toll on the person holding it. Everything he says and does has to be weighed against that secret. He can't let anything about Jack slip into his daily conversation with anyone. He can't ever tell anyone about the love of his life -- how he feels about Jack. That's a hell of a strain. When your life is so messed up, as you pointed out above, and you carry such a secret, you're bound to crack somewhere along the line. The only place he could crack was with Jack, so he does in their last scene together. I think Jack knows what it is that Ennis can't stand any longer. He, too, has the secret. While he may go with other men, he never tells them about his love for Ennis. I' doubt if love is EVER mentioned by Jack to anyone, except maybe to Lureen in their earliest days.

Sad to say but IMO Ennis' whole life is one of denial. Not just denial for who and what he is...but denying HIMSELF of what he needed, although his childhood had lots to do with that...circumstances being what they were. We hear about his wanting to finish school but couldn't because the truck broke down. Ennis was so used to being denied what he wanted that he didn't know how to hold on to something he wanted. IMO he did have feelings for Alma ( I shared this in another thread) -- maybe he loved her -- but not as much as he loved Jack. Looks like he enjoyed being with Alma toboganning, and he was very respectful with her and conscious of trying to be a good Daddy before the Reunion scene. Yet, it seemed Ennis was just incapable of giving all of himself to anyone -- because if anyone knew the whole Ennis -- they would run screaming for the hills or set to with tire irons.
Ennis was a drifter in his life and in his heart because he could never anchor himself to anyone or anything. He didn't know what it was like to be complete. All he knew to do was give little bits of himself to people, little tiny bits that were safe. Maybe a bit more to Jack, but not everything. Never enough, never enough.

keren_b · « **Reply #168 on:** Jul 26, 2006, 08:29 AM »

smilesalot, I agree with the way you describe Ennis's life. and probably this hard life has contributed a lot to him not being able to stand it anymore. he couldn't stand being nothing and nowhere. he couldn't stand living his life lying and pretending to be something he isn't, but at the same time he couldn't stand admitting to what he really was. he couldn't stand fighting against himself, fighting against his nature, he's been fighting his whole life. he was tired of the struggle.

welshwitch · « **Reply #169 on:** Jul 26, 2006, 08:58 AM »

One of the preciputating factos may have been the realisation that Jack has been nothing like as deprived, materially, sexually, socially, even emotionally as he has. Ennis has stood a lot more, ironic when you think that he was the one who said,"If you can't fix it..." and eventaully evidently decided he'll go on doing so rather than lose Jack. If you love someone enough you find in yourself an almost infinite capacity to put up with whatever it takes to keep them.

smilesalot · « **Reply #170 on:** Jul 27, 2006, 06:53 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 26, 2006, 08:58 AM

One of the preciputating factos may have been the realisation that Jack has been nothing like as deprived, materially, sexually, socially, even emotionally as he has. Ennis has stood a lot more, ironic when you think that he was the one who said,"If you can't fix it..." and eventaully evidently decided he'll go on doing so rather than lose Jack. If you love someone enough you find in yourself an almost infinite capacity to put up with whatever it takes to keep them.

Yes, awesome insight there, ww. And isn't that true, really, of both Ennis and Jack as well. Who would have ever thought our free lovin Jack would stick it out with Ennis for 20 years? Jack, who was never satisfied. Jack, who drove 14 hrs. one way. Jack, who saw his dreams and his pride slipping away year after year in order to hold on to his stubborn, hard-to-love Ennis. IMO Ennis was beginning to realize Jack's sacrifice and the pain of realizing what he had done to Jack also lead to the "I can't stand this" comment." Ennis can't stand knowing the depth of the pain he inflicted.