Topic: There was some open space....

[NoReins]

I've been thinking about this for a while now but since I've lent my copy of the short story out, I couldn't remember the exact sentence used....so I'm indebted to Lost_Girl from another thread. Right at the end of the short story there following line appears:

There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

I was just wondering what people thought that all meant?

FWIW my thoughts are that Ennis knew that he loved Jack and that Jack loved him (because of the shirts) and tried to believe that, although Jack may have had other men, he would never have had a life with any of them because Ennis was his one true love. He may also have tried to believe that he wasn't gay, although I kind of think that by then he's realised that he is.

I'd be interested to hear what others think, though.

[samc]

NoReins....I love the short story, but I found this part the most intruging too! I read somewhere that Annie Proulx wrote the story with "loose ends" in parts, specifically so that readers would have to make their own decisions, and this, for me, is the most difficult one to decide on! I've taken it to mean that Ennis" knew" (finally) that he loved Jack but he " tried to believe" they could never be together, despite this love- that he couldn't have done anything diferently to what he did throughout their relationship ie: refuse Jacks wish that they be together.
But I'm really not certain...would be interested in other peoples take on this.....
Samc x
PS Thought I saw a similar thread on these lines somewhere else.....

[proulxfan]

This is one of the best questions of them all. And I don't know if there's another thread about this, but if there is I hope the moderators will move this discussion to merge with it.

This line is obviously open to many interpretations. For me, it suggested the following: The open space referred to a difference or cognitve dissonance. What he knew was that he had overpoweringly strong feelings for Jack, and vice versa(love, really), and what he tried to believe was that neither of them were "queer". I think that even after all that the two of them had been through, together and separately, during the course of their relationship, Ennis would still have balked at the idea of applying the label of "queer" or "gay" or "homosexual" to either himself or Jack, but especially to himself. This is in keeping with Annie Proulx's statement that the primary theme of the story was the destructive effects of rural homophobia, both internal and external. Like many others, he might have been able to accept the term "bi-sexual", but the problem with that is, in the story, he had already told Jack that sex with women couldn't compare to the sex he and Jack shared, and I don't think this was just an issue of "mechanics". He was, in fact, sexually functional with both men and women, but his stated preference was for men, or in this case, man.

And an interesting thought: if he had passionately loved and been attracted to just one woman, I think there would be no argument with the notion that he was, by nature, "straight", regardless of whether circumstances, fears, or social pressures (in a very different society than the one in which we live) led him to have sex with others, whatever their gender. 

samc,
Dang that Annie Proulx and her "loose ends"!!! Look at what she's done to me! (and a few others as well...)LOL

[NoReins]

proulxfan and sam - thanks for your thoughts on this. Seems like we're in basic agreement on the meaning of this bit so maybe it's not so open ended after all, although I guess there's plenty of time for alternative suggestions.

Although loose ends are sometimes annoying, it's great that they encourage so much interesting discussion. If it was all clear cut we wouldn't all have to keep coming back here to see the latest ideas - and that would be a shame

[Stephen]

Absolutely, NoReins; Annie Proulx's tantalizing open-ended writing leaves room for our imaginations to wander and ponder.....Proulxfan, I agree with your take on the quotation. That "space" does seem to suggest that painful leap that may or may not be taken from what one knows to what one tries to believe: the "cognitive dissonance" as you say......and you remind me of a notion I had long ago when seeing the film and rereading the story: both Ennis and Jack proclaim they are not queer; but Jack, as we have noted before, attempts to live out his gayness, while Ennis stays true to his "this is a one time thing" or rather his one man, Jack, as a life time love......so, although Ennis tries to believe neither of them is queer, he has to wonder then what the implications are of his passions for Jack, and this is the "space" that leaves him suspended, and at a stalemate,where his brain stops,  and so "nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it."

[proulxfan]

Stephen,
Brava!! Very well said. But I would add that Ennis was, so far as we are given to know, Jack's lifetime love as well. Jack's way of dealing with it was different, because he had greater needs, or at least was more aware of them. But there is no indication that he ever felt anything for any other man what he did for Ennis.  :-\ :'(  (Again!)

[NoReins]

Totally agree proulxfan - nothing in the story suggests that Jack ever felt anything approaching the way he felt about Ennis for anyone else. Everything he says, everything he does, makes it pretty clear that Ennis is the only one he could ever feel that way about.

[Stephen]

Yes, there's no doubt that Ennis is Jack's one true love, just not his only sexual partner.

[TJ]

If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.

It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.

[Stephen]

Yes, TJ, I agree with your observation: the final note is having to live with it, having to "stand" it, and that's the bitter truth of the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain.

[NoReins]

If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.

It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.

You're right TJ - but at least Ennis seems to find some solace in dreaming of Jack. I guess this makes the story more bearable than the movie in a lot of ways, since at least we see that Ennis has happy memories (at least when he wakes up with the sheets damp, anyway)

[Patriot1]

If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.

It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.

You're right TJ - but at least Ennis seems to find some solace in dreaming of Jack. I guess this makes the story more bearable than the movie in a lot of ways, since at least we see that Ennis has happy memories (at least when he wakes up with the sheets damp, anyway)

*Blushing*  I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams.  So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed.  I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink.  Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity.   :D

[NoReins]

*Blushing*  I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams.  So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed.  I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink.  Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity.   :D

I don't know what's worse, Patriot1 - you being embarrassed when you "got" what she meant there, or me (as a female with no experience of these things, obviously) "getting it" straight away. What does that say about my mind when I was reading the story? :D

[Patriot1]

*Blushing*  I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams.  So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed.  I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink.  Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity.   :D

I don't know what's worse, Patriot1 - you being embarrassed when you "got" what she meant there, or me (as a female with no experience of these things, obviously) "getting it" straight away. What does that say about my mind when I was reading the story? :D

Well, at least you and Annie were on the same page.  I rewrote the end of her story!!! 

And, we also learned that Ennis Del Mar never wore underwear.

[NoReins]

And, we also learned that Ennis Del Mar never wore underware.

Oh stop it - I'm trying to be serious here and you're mentioning no underwear...and since, for me at least, Ennis = Heath Ledger, that's a truly distracting thought.

Right, now I'll get my mind out of the gutter and back on topic....

[proulxfan]

That's right you two! Let's cut out all this nonsense! :D But truly, thanks so much for sharing those! You've made my day!

[TJ]

If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.

It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.

You're right TJ - but at least Ennis seems to find some solace in dreaming of Jack. I guess this makes the story more bearable than the movie in a lot of ways, since at least we see that Ennis has happy memories (at least when he wakes up with the sheets damp, anyway)

*Blushing*  I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams.  So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed.  I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink.  Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity.   :D

In the book, it says, "And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."

Ennis could have tears while he had those dreams and the sheets got wet because of the nightmare he had. And, in regard to the sense of joy and release, the sheets might have been damp due to noctural emission, which we call a "wet dream."

My late partner, Ed, thought "wet dreams" meant one "peed the bed." He had never had one of those.

I have had the sheets become damp with sweat due to having a bad dream and have had them sticky-damp when I had (or might have had) the other kind of dream. But, a guy does not have to even be dreaming about sex to have a nocturnal emission of semen.

Clothing worn next to the skin under other clothing is "underwear."  The spelling "underware" makes it look like it might be metal gear or hardware of some type.

[Patriot1]

Ennis could have tears while he had those dreams and the sheets got wet because of the nightmare he had. And, in regard to the sense of joy and release, the sheets might have been damp due to noctural emission, which we call a "wet dream."

Yes, that is what we call it where I am from also.

[jazzsinger]

As interesting as this discussion is......

And I do think that Ennis is still struggling with the idea of his homosexuality...

Nevertheless, I took the quote right at the end of the story as an allusion to what Jack's father had said about Jack talking about taking another guy up to Lightnin Flat.... Ennis knows this, but tries to believe that Jack remained faithful to him.  Fidelity is obviously an important issue for Ennis, as the last meeting scene shows.

And I think this is why Ennis says 'Jack, I swear'..Its a vow of fidelity, and it may even be linked to a commitment to go back to Lightnin Flat to collect Jack's ashes, so that they can be scattered on Brokeback and not buried on 'the grieving plain'.

I was discussing the story of BBM with my son today, about how it is a universal theme - lovers who cannot be together because of cultural prejudices and such things.   There are obvious parallels to 'Romeo and Juliet' and also to 'Wuthering Heights'.  I don't know if anyone else is familiar with the story, but in Emily Bronte's novel there is a suggestion that Heathcliff and Catherine are united after death, and in my head and heart I have the same ending for Jack and Ennis.

Its one the possiblities that Annie leaves us to ponder.....

[Petter Gusten]

are united after death, and in my head and heart I have the same ending for Jack and Ennis

exactly what I want to belive too - Ennis is more or less just waiting to one day meet Jack again - 'over the rainbow, where there is a whisky spring and bluebirds sing...'

OMG - now are tears running again

 :'(  :'(  :'(

[BBBOY]

are united after death, and in my head and heart I have the same ending for Jack and Ennis

exactly what I want to belive too - Ennis is more or less just waiting to one day meet Jack again - 'over the rainbow, where there is a whisky spring and bluebirds sing...'

OMG - now are tears running again

 :'(  :'(  :'(

come here my sweet green man and I'll give you a big cyber hug.

[Petter Gusten]

thanks !

 :D    :D

[keren_b]

I'm so glad to find this thread, I was wondering about that line from the minute I've read it. I thought this was one of the most beautiful lines in the story, and although I wasn't sure what had Annie meant by that "open spaces" and what Ennis wanted to believe, every time I read this line it made me feel this sadness that I couldn't explain.

I'm greatful to everyone who sent their thoughts here. I agree that the open space is a kind of a cognitive dissonance, but there is more than one explanation that seems reasonable to me: it could be that Ennis knew he loved Jack but tried to believe that he was straight. it could be that he tried to believe that Jack was faithful to him although he knew he wasn't Jack's only one (well at least not sexually). And I was just thinking, that maybe the open space was between what he knew - that Jack was dead, and what he tried/wanted to believe - that Jack is still somewhere out there, waiting for him... but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you gou've got to stand it.  :'(

[proulxfan]

keren_b,
That's what makes this forum such a great place to share thoughts about the story/film; to have the benefit of others' input of their ideas and interpretations. These invigorate the story for me beyond what I would able get out of it on my own, which was already plenty. The "open space" between his love for Jack and trying to believe in Jack's fidelity is a perfect example of what I am talking about. And of course that opens up the possiblity-the subject of another thread- of sexual fidelity vs. faithfulness of the heart, and to what extent they have to be one and the same...So many of these topics open out onto other possibilities. That's why it's so difficult to stay "on topic" here! LOL

[glacier1]

So far, I haven't noticed this perspective:  could some of the open space be Ennis knew Jack was dead and believed he (Ennis) was partly responsible?   If Ennis had found a way to literally embrace their relationship in a more forthright way, Jack would be alive and Ennis would not be alone.

[Valandil Eluch]

There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

i think it can be interpreted in many ways one is talking about Ennis feelings about jack and how jack feelings about him, at the end of the story he can doubt that Jack love him he was going to move up with some one to lightning flat according to his father but he was not sure of that, and since jack was dead he'll never know that.


other way to see this was jack's death he was not sure how he died and he was not going to knew the true annie made a really good work by putting that in our point of view it is exactly what ennis thinks!! he is not sure how he died!

and the other view could be their relationship itself he was not sure if they would probabl continue that love they have he would probably believe they could but he would never know it. and as it says since he would never fix this situation he would face this doubts for the rest of his life.

[jackie62]

really interesting ideas --- many had never occurred to me.

When I first read the short story I felt the whole tragedy of the choice Ennis made was in these few lines.

"what he knew "=== that he had ,and still  loved Jack , pure and simple . He'd also been loved in return . I think he can almost accept the beauty of that love and that is why his dreams are of their youth. He'd realised that there is nothing greater than finding love,that you don't hide from it and that without it you have nothing . Putting it simply --- to truly live ,you  must chose love even if that means taking huge risks.

He'd made the wrong choice.

"what he tried to believe" === These are many things, mostly to do with his fear of the consequences of that love and alot to do with his fear of others contempt. He tries to believe they couldn't have been safe living together --- but I think he now realises that the life he stayed in was no life. I sometimes feel he didn't only fear physical danger but also the ridicule and contempt of others.  He tries to believe that,  because  their love would have been unacceptable to others , he had no real choice--- Ennis conforms way too much. Put simply he tries to believe that his failure to live with Jack  was unavoidable but I don't think he believes that any more. I think he also sees his own homophobia for what it was --- the product of fear. He's truly been loved so how can he equate this with the ugly ideas some people have about this form of loving.

 He'd made the wrong choice.

I think it is these kind of ideas that the last scene with Alma is meant to convey --- and that this time he doesn't let the person he loves down.

[NoReins]

"what he tried to believe" === These are many things, mostly to do with his fear of the consequences of that love and alot to do with his fear of others contempt. He tries to believe they couldn't have been safe living together --- but I think he now realises that the life he stayed in was no life. I sometimes feel he didn't only fear physical danger but also the ridicule and contempt of others.  He tries to believe that,  because  their love would have been unacceptable to others , he had no real choice--- Ennis conforms way too much. Put simply he tries to believe that his failure to live with Jack  was unavoidable but I don't think he believes that any more. I think he also sees his own homophobia for what it was --- the product of fear. He's truly been loved so how can he equate this with the ugly ideas some people have about this form of loving.

 He'd made the wrong choice.

Jackie, that's not something I'd ever considered before, but I think you're absolutely right. "He tried to believe that he had no real choice" - yeah, that's it :'(

[LuvJackNasty]

Beautiful post Jackie62. So many good thoughts in this thread about this quote.

I  interpreted that line as him being conflicted concerning the truth of Jack's death. He has Lureen's story and his belief that it was the tire iron. The only thing he knows is that his Jack is dead. I guess at times he wavers as to what he believes/knows- an accident is more comforting I suppose- there's nothing that you can do or that could have been done- I think this is what he tried  to believe. The tire iron is Ennis' worst fear come true and if that is the case then I'm sure he has moments of torment wondering "what if I had done this or that differently" etc.  I think this is what he knows and that is a cruel irony to cope with. He has no closure in that regard.

[camom]

I've wondered about these lines quite a bit myself.  I appreciate hearing what all of you think of them.  My first inclination was that it was in reference to what he knew and what he tried to believe about how Jack died--an accident v. murder.  I thought this because the previous paragraph mentions the spoon handle that could be used as a tire iron.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I think that maybe it's meant to emphasize how conflicted Ennis is, in many ways--over his sexuality, his love for Jack, how Jack died, his responsibility for events--and not just to indicate one specific thing.  But then I think something different every time I read the story!

camom