Topic: Which character are you more drawn to?

[tpe]

But in spite of his fears, he learned to love and love deeply.  His flaws enhanced rather than degraded that love.

[atalley]

So true.  Thanks again Thomas.

[tpe]

Thanks atalley.  It certainly makes sense to me that those who love Ennis love him especially because of his inherent flaws and contradictions.  These flaws make him so much like all of us.

[vedrana]

Thanks atalley.  It certainly makes sense to me that those who love Ennis love him especially because of his inherent flaws and contradictions.  These flaws make him so much like all of us.

I believe that we all can find some common characteristic with both of them. In Ennis I find some inner struggles never expressed openly, and the thing I first noticed about Jack was hiding his eyes behind the hat. Gee, i should buy one cowboy hat, coz I have the same problem as Jack and I figured it out much later. Of course, it is easy to see something in others, but our own problems we find very difficult to dissect. As I said it took me a while to see that hiding eyes in order not to be exposed is pretty much my problem too. And that's surely part of the reason why I adored Jack from the beginning. Now I know why!

That's the evidence that this movie touches the very essence of ourselves.

[tpe]

I believe that we all can find some common characteristic with both of them. In Ennis I find some inner struggles never expressed openly, and the thing I first noticed about Jack was hiding his eyes behind the hat. Gee, i should buy one cowboy hat, coz I have the same problem as Jack and I figured it out much later. Of course, it is easy to see something in others, but our own problems we find very difficult to dissect. As I said it took me a while to see that hiding eyes in order not to be exposed is pretty much my problem too. And that's surely part of the reason why I adored Jack from the beginning. Now I know why!

That's the evidence that this movie touches the very essence of ourselves.

The funny thing is that I love Jack because I know that sometimes, I don't let my emotions move me as they should.  It's not exactly an attraction to opposites -- but there are qualities that I admire or would love to have to a greater degree.    I know that those are the qualities I prize the most in other men...

[vedrana]

The funny thing is that I love Jack because I know that sometimes, I don't let my emotions move me as they should.  It's not exactly an attraction to opposites -- but there are qualities that I admire or would love to have to a greater degree.    I know that those are the qualities I prize the most in other men...

It's always about finding ourselves in them- wether is something we feel in common with E or J, or something we see in them wanting to accomplish it ourselves. But, for sure our choice is the reflection of our own characteristic.

[tpe]

It's always about finding ourselves in them- wether is something we feel in common with E or J, or something we see in them wanting to accomplish it ourselves. But, for sure our choice is the reflection of our own characteristic.

Finding ourselves in them -- or else, finding what we think is missing or what we think we ourselves lack...

[vedrana]

Finding ourselves in them -- or else, finding what we think is missing or what we think we ourselves lack...

And isn't that how we choose our friends - someone to reflect our soul wether it's a total reflection or the partial, which can hopefully complete in the future.. 

[tpe]

And isn't that how we choose our friends - someone to reflect our soul wether it's a total reflection or the partial, which can hopefully complete in the future.. 

Yes, sometimes we chose our friends for the things and traits we have in common with them, and we sometimes chose them for the differences we have with them that seemingly complete us.

I think that in lost lover relationships, we seek partners who complement us more than they mirror us.  This is just my opinion, of course...

[vedrana]

Yes, sometimes we chose our friends for the things and traits we have in common with them, and we sometimes chose them for the differences we have with them that seemingly complete us.

I think that in lost lover relationships, we seek partners who complement us more than they mirror us.  This is just my opinion, of course...

 Hm.. your point is that the relationships based only on complementing without any common things for noth partners are lost??? I didn't quite understand...

[tpe]

Hm.. your point is that the relationships based only on complementing without any common things for noth partners are lost??? I didn't quite understand...

I apologize!  It was a typo.  It should have read "most" rather than "lost"! 

[vedrana]

I apologize!  It was a typo.  It should have read "most" rather than "lost"! 

  Oh, OK! You gave me a hard time there... 

I'll be back with the answer.  Have to contemplate about it a bit... 

[smartestsonia]

Yes, sometimes we chose our friends for the things and traits we have in common with them, and we sometimes chose them for the differences we have with them that seemingly complete us.

I think that in lost lover relationships, we seek partners who complement us more than they mirror us.  This is just my opinion, of course...

I have to agree with this as all my best friends complement me and help and complete me where I lack and vice versa ..Although there is an common element between us inspite of the trait differences and that is the honesty and love we share..With reference to Ennis and Jack I think even though they were poles apart and did complement each other and rather complete each other the common element was love and understanding shared which filled all the gaps..IMO 

[tpe]

I do think the love and the understanding was strong because of the differences, and not in spite of them.  We love especially those things that we ourselves lack.  We can understand something all the more because we are different and are set apart.

[smartestsonia]

I do think the love and the understanding was strong because of the differences, and not in spite of them.  We love especially those things that we ourselves lack.  We can understand something all the more because we are different and are set apart.

Ya, we admire what we lack in others and we feel that they will complete us...This goes with every relation that is formed.

One more thing about Ennis as Jack when their friendship was developed and Ennis told about his childhood, Jack completed his need to be heard. He never told about his past to anyone, but then why Jack?..That shows that Jack's empathy touched Ennis and Ennis could finally open up...Now that was something what Ennis was unconsciously looking out for...

[tpe]

Ya, we admire what we lack in others and we feel that they will complete us...This goes with every relation that is formed.

One more thing about Ennis as Jack when their friendship was developed and Ennis told about his childhood, Jack completed his need to be heard. He never told about his past to anyone, but then why Jack?..That shows that Jack's empathy touched Ennis and Ennis could finally open up...Now that was something what Ennis was unconsciously looking out for...

I do think that both of them found the other to be a good listener.  Ennis's opening up to Jack up in BBM certainly reflects this, and Jack himself found out that Ennis listed carefully to his own complaints and tried to do something about it...

[vedrana]

Yes, sometimes we chose our friends for the things and traits we have in common with them, and we sometimes chose them for the differences we have with them that seemingly complete us.

I think that in lost lover relationships, we seek partners who complement us more than they mirror us.  This is just my opinion, of course...

Tpe ,

I am not so sure. In relationships I believe that some things complement us , but some also mirror us...

But the most important thing IMO is the feeling and the aura that every person has. With some people we are just not compatible, and even no specific explanation -we know that they are not the kind of person we want to be with - regardeless friends or lovers.

Finally, weren't Ennis and Jack friends first? Later came the sex part and higher level of relationship...

[FlwrChild]

Hmm, is it possible to agree with all of this?    

I do mean that actually. Because I think that we look for a combination of the attributes that you have all listed here, and I think that Jack and Ennis found the right combination to develop a genuine and soul deep love.

I think when it works at its best, we are able to allow our partner's better qualities to draw those same things out of us and help us to learn how to strengthen those areas that might have idled had we been left on our own. Jack and Ennis were able to do that in many ways, and to embrace the traits they found mirrored in one another as well. Unfortunately they weren't able to find a way to break through some of the barriers that separated them, so they were able to discover true love, they just weren't able to live that love together as we wanted for them.

I agree too with that indescribable sense or aura that you can feel about someone - you don't necessarily know why they fit you just right, you just know that they do.

No wonder we tend to be drawn to both of them. They are two halves of one whole.

[keren_b]

After I first saw Brokeback, the thing that stayed with me most of all was Ennis at the end, alone in his trailer. The loneliness and the emptiness of his life. It scared me because I felt that I have a pretty good chance to end my life in the same way, and at the same time I felt very connected to him. I felt I could understand his inner battle with his fears, and his inability to change.

[FlwrChild]

  Keren. I hope that watching his journey has helped you learn to embrace his strengths and not follow the path of his fears.

I think it's a testament to the character that we want so much for him to escape the prison of those fears and be able to achieve his happiness.

[vedrana]

No wonder we tend to be drawn to both of them. They are two halves of one whole.

Indeed they were FlwrChild! And that's why we were so pained by their tragic separation in the end! :\'(

[vedrana]

After I first saw Brokeback, the thing that stayed with me most of all was Ennis at the end, alone in his trailer. The loneliness and the emptiness of his life. It scared me because I felt that I have a pretty good chance to end my life in the same way, and at the same time I felt very connected to him. I felt I could understand his inner battle with his fears, and his inability to change.

I always felt so deeply sorry for Ennis being so lonely in the end, but never acctually understand him. I cried for him a big deal, I saw his pain and felt it as my own, but always with Jack in my heart.... :\'(

[smartestsonia]

I do think that both of them found the other to be a good listener.  Ennis's opening up to Jack up in BBM certainly reflects this, and Jack himself found out that Ennis listed carefully to his own complaints and tried to do something about it...

Exactly when Jack said that he was tired of eating beans and Ennis did soemthing aboot it..That was so sweet and then Jack always sensed Ennis's trials and Ennis knew that Jack understood and so he even felt like opening up...It was very mutual

[smartestsonia]

Tpe ,

I am not so sure. In relationships I believe that some things complement us , but some also mirror us...

But the most important thing IMO is the feeling and the aura that every person has. With some people we are just not compatible, and even no specific explanation -we know that they are not the kind of person we want to be with - regardeless friends or lovers.

Finally, weren't Ennis and Jack friends first? Later came the sex part and higher level of relationship...

I agree with u Loreen. Aura is very important and u can call it vibes and it really makes a difference...Its wierd as sometimes we just love or dont like the vibes of a person without any logical explanation. Even if there is a logical explanation to it, the fact that we feel something makes a huge difference..It was the same for Ennis and Jack. The friendship developed by a comfort level and followed by passionate love that could never change or like discussed in other topic could never wear out....

[tpe]

Tpe ,

I am not so sure. In relationships I believe that some things complement us , but some also mirror us...

Hello loreen.  That's why I said that "we seek partners who complement us more than they mirror us."  Both are usually present, but in my experience, I see complementarity much more than a direct mirroring.  We are normally attracted to like-minded individuals, but the clincher in a relationship is usually that extra something that the other contributes to make us feel more complete.  Also, without generalizing too much, I feel that there is a certain element of narcissism inherent in the love of one's own image, shall we say.

But the most important thing IMO is the feeling and the aura that every person has. With some people we are just not compatible, and even no specific explanation -we know that they are not the kind of person we want to be with - regardeless friends or lovers.

Finally, weren't Ennis and Jack friends first? Later came the sex part and higher level of relationship...

True.  But we also should note that compatibility is not the exactly same as complementarity.    To put a key into the correct lock is complementarity -- the right key is not the same as the right lock, but together, they open doors.

Finally, I should note that in the case of Ennis and Jack initially had a sexual attraction (as seen in the opening scenes).  This is so true in many relationships -- that the initial impetus comes from physical attraction.  But the attraction must go deeper after that, in order to work.  Attraction -- then perhaps friendship -- turning to love.

 

[tpe]

No wonder we tend to be drawn to both of them. They are two halves of one whole.

Well said.

[tpe]

After I first saw Brokeback, the thing that stayed with me most of all was Ennis at the end, alone in his trailer. The loneliness and the emptiness of his life. It scared me because I felt that I have a pretty good chance to end my life in the same way, and at the same time I felt very connected to him. I felt I could understand his inner battle with his fears, and his inability to change.

keren, we are all beset by the fear of being alone.  (As in Donnie Darko: the fear of dying alone.  )  But it should comfort us to know that in the case of Ennis, he probably was never alone.  He had his memories -- and as in older people whose friends have gone ahead of them, the memories go a long way to keep the heart and the mind company. 

[vedrana]

keren, we are all beset by the fear of being alone.  (As in Donnie Darko: the fear of dying alone.  )  But it should comfort us to know that in the case of Ennis, he probably was never alone.  He had his memories -- and as in older people whose friends have gone ahead of them, the memories go a long way to keep the heart and the mind company. 

Maybe some would disagree, but prolonging your post I would put Ennis's memories about Jack (espacially his vivid dreams about him) before anyone else, Junior or Mrs. Twist or whoever ....

[tpe]

Maybe some would disagree, but prolonging your post I would put Ennis's memories about Jack (espacially his vivid dreams about him) before anyone else, Junior or Mrs. Twist or whoever ....

The dreams of Jack in the ss certainly show that as far as Ennis was concerned, Jack was still "present" -- perhaps more real than mundane reality itself... 

[vedrana]

Hello loreen.  That's why I said that "we seek partners who complement us more than they mirror us."  Both are usually present, but in my experience, I see complementarity much more than a direct mirroring.  We are normally attracted to like-minded individuals, but the clincher in a relationship is usually that extra something that the other contributes to make us feel more complete.  Also, without generalizing too much, I feel that there is a certain element of narcissism inherent in the love of one's own image, shall we say.


True.  But we also should note that compatibility is not the exactly same as complementarity.    To put a key into the correct lock is complementarity -- the right key is not the same as the right lock, but together, they open doors.

Finally, I should note that in the case of Ennis and Jack initially had a sexual attraction (as seen in the opening scenes).  This is so true in many relationships -- that the initial impetus comes from physical attraction.  But the attraction must go deeper after that, in order to work.  Attraction -- then perhaps friendship -- turning to love.

  There was an experiment where scientist showed to a group of people 10-20 photos. One of the photos was always the photo of the chosen candidate, but reversed into the man or a woman and changed a bit. In that way candidate couldn't recognize his own face, but nevertheless most of them have chosen just themselves as the most beautiful!  This is the answer about the part of narcissism.  

As for E&J sexual attraction at the beginning... I am not sure, I can not sense that between them. Not that it doesn't exist, it's just that I'm incapable of seeing it. But the beauty of their friendship and the growth of their unique relationship surpasses anything that I could ever expect from the movie!