Author Topic: The first time we see Jack . . . (Read 34890 times)

bubbaluna · « **Reply #30 on:** May 02, 2006, 02:53 PM »

Quote from: Esme on May 02, 2006, 10:24 AM

Quote from: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 10:22 AM
I'd say "flirted" is an overexaggeration - he approached the man, held his gaze too long, and the man backed off. Again the wrong setting, though it might have been known as a place where you could expect to find others "of a certain persuasion."

I agree. And I also agree that Jack did risk getting the c*** kicked out of him by Ennis that first meeting, but I def think he was looking at him more out of interest for the man and not the competition, I think had it been the latter he would have looked "harder" and not shyed his eyes away so fast as he did... he woulda tried to psyche the other guy out by having a sort of staring contest.

IMO

here is my take...for what it's worth

I think this may actually be one of the "flaws" in the movie.....because I do agree with jer that in the 60s a guy would NOT openly flirt with another guy BUT

What else was Jack doing here? he was definitely trying to get Ennis' attention and IMHO was trying to see whether there might have been any interest on Ennis' part.....If I recall correctly (and I may be wrong) didn't the short story imply that Jack had already been with a guy?? Or was that only after the summer....

In any event the flaw to me is that as jer said this was SO unlikely to have happened so openly in the 60s.....But I Do believe that the movie has Jack flirting alright!

Rønnaug · « **Reply #31 on:** May 02, 2006, 03:02 PM »

I just think that had he NOT been flirting he woulda gone over to Ennis, reached out his hand and sayd "Jack Twist"

chameau · « **Reply #32 on:** May 02, 2006, 03:03 PM »

Quote from: Esme on May 02, 2006, 03:02 PM

I just think that had he NOT been flirting he woulda gone over to Ennis, reached out his hand and sayd "Jack Twist"

And the shaving scene says a lot, the glance from the mirror is not an innocent look IMO

boo_boo · « **Reply #33 on:** May 02, 2006, 03:52 PM »

I thought Jack was just being Jack- he's a talkative guy. I thought he was going to go up & talk to Ennis but Ennis looked down. Jack might've felt uncomfortable then and decided to just sit back & watch how Ennis would act towards him.

NoReins · « **Reply #34 on:** May 02, 2006, 03:57 PM »

Quote from: chameau on May 02, 2006, 03:03 PM

Quote from: Esme on May 02, 2006, 03:02 PM
I just think that had he NOT been flirting he woulda gone over to Ennis, reached out his hand and sayd "Jack Twist"

And the shaving scene says a lot, the glance from the mirror is not an innocent look IMO

Yep, I'm with you on that one chameau. No other reason for Jack to be looking at Ennis in his car mirror.

jerasjr · « **Reply #35 on:** May 02, 2006, 03:58 PM »

boo boo, just what should have been said right away, Jack was being Jack. Many times I think we are overanalyzing...
with the rodeo clown, Jack was being Jack. with Randall, Jack was being Jack. at the first meeting, Jack was being Jack.

jerasjr · « **Reply #36 on:** May 02, 2006, 04:00 PM »

I sit back and watch for the physical evidence that indicates more than casual interest, and to me they are not there.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #37 on:** May 02, 2006, 04:02 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 04:00 PM

I sit back and watch for the physical evidence that indicates more than casual interest, and to me they are not there.

Like I said, if I was Ennis, then Ennis would be a 31 yr old woman who loves handsome men, I would have taken that behaviour as flirting

And I have thought so since the first time I saw the film

But I'm ok with disagreeing with ya

jerasjr · « **Reply #38 on:** May 02, 2006, 04:10 PM »

That's just it, we're each applying it in our realm of experience, and since our experiences vary greatly, so do our opinions. I can only see it through my own eyes at that time - to me, if jack were that openly flirting, he would have been dead much earlier in the film. Not that my view is any more valid than yours, because they both have validity from our realm of experience. We can agree to disagree, without any hard feelings. That is what is so great about this forum, every person's view has value.

BBBOY · « **Reply #39 on:** May 02, 2006, 04:40 PM »

Quote from: Esme on May 02, 2006, 03:47 AM

Welcome jackiswear326, enhoy and have fun and cry with the rest of us

I am not sure I think Jack was seeing competition for the job, he had done this last year and knew it was a two man job.

I think it was a mix between actually beeing a bit shy and then curious about someone he thought was handsome.

Now this makes complete, right on sense. Shy but curious. What kind of guy was this stranger gonna be like if they ended up on the mountain together? Good looking enough to take a peek at in the mirror while shaving and I'm sure by that time Jack must have had some limited experience with another young kid. That is what they both were at this time, kids. IMHO I think his posing by the truck was nothing more than what any young man does when shy and unsure of himself when confronting someone similar to himself for the first time.

bubbaluna · « **Reply #40 on:** May 02, 2006, 05:07 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 04:10 PM

That's just it, we're each applying it in our realm of experience, and since our experiences vary greatly, so do our opinions. I can only see it through my own eyes at that time - to me, if jack were that openly flirting, he would have been dead much earlier in the film. Not that my view is any more valid than yours, because they both have validity from our realm of experience. We can agree to disagree, without any hard feelings. That is what is so great about this forum, every person's view has value.

I agree that in context Jack should NOT have been flirting when he first met Ennis because that was not done in 63....BUT ...the way he looked at Ennis , pranced over there , leaned against the truck and watched Ennis as he shaved indicated he was flirting! That's why I believe in this scene the movie was flawed...too unbelieveable for 63 in Wyomimg

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #41 on:** May 02, 2006, 07:03 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 04:10 PM

That's just it, we're each applying it in our realm of experience, and since our experiences vary greatly, so do our opinions. I can only see it through my own eyes at that time - to me, if jack were that openly flirting, he would have been dead much earlier in the film. Not that my view is any more valid than yours, because they both have validity from our realm of experience. We can agree to disagree, without any hard feelings. That is what is so great about this forum, every person's view has value.

i agree with you about Jack

Patriot1 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 02, 2006, 07:30 PM »

Quote from: bubbaluna on May 02, 2006, 05:07 PM

I agree that in context Jack should NOT have been flirting when he first met Ennis because that was not done in 63....BUT ...the way he looked at Ennis , pranced over there , leaned against the truck and watched Ennis as he shaved indicated he was flirting! That's why I believe in this scene the movie was flawed...too unbelieveable for 63 in Wyomimg

No, I don't see a flaw, I see an exception to the rule of the time and place. Jack certainly was an extrovert. Ennis, the total opposite. When I was a kid growing up in a small town in the 50's and 60's I saw the Jacks around town. In fact, my mother and I were on a bus riding through the center of town one day when I was 7 or 8 and she points to this guy standing in front of the luncheonette and says, "You see that man?" "Yes, I replied" "Well you keep away from him. He is a queer."

Oh great I think, he must be like me then because that is what the kids in school call me, queer. What the hell is a queer?

So, there were Jacks around back then. I am not even sure Jack realized that his behavior could have gotten him into trouble. He never had the experience that Ennis did and had no reason to have any fears.

jerasjr · « **Reply #43 on:** May 02, 2006, 08:16 PM »

So then I have to pose the question or questions - why would they make this exception? and what other exceptions do you see in the movie?

jerasjr · « **Reply #44 on:** May 02, 2006, 08:21 PM »

Yes there were queers around then, but in this instance in Wyoming? Please, grew up less isolated than Jack and Ennis, and don't remember seeing overt behavior - I might have wondered and hoped, but could not have identifed another gay person by the actions we see Jack take at the first meeting. Maybe I'm just dense.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #45 on:** May 02, 2006, 09:20 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 08:16 PM

So then I have to pose the question or questions - why would they make this exception? and what other exceptions do you see in the movie?

You know, it just occurred to me that what Jack did (the way he acted) might not have meant a thing to anyone in Wyoming at the time. I mean he didn't go flitting about like the stereotypical "fairy." We are looking at his actions through our own eyes. We know what things mean, the straight people back then might not have even noticed. Ennis sure didn't.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #46 on:** May 02, 2006, 09:31 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 08:21 PM

Yes there were queers around then, but in this instance in Wyoming?

Honey, there are queers everywhere, even in countries where they kill them if they are discovered. I am one of those people who believe you are born that way. If that is true, then where you are born has nothing to do with anything.

Quote from: jerasjr

Please, grew up less isolated than Jack and Ennis, and don't remember seeing overt behavior - I might have wondered and hoped, but could not have identifed another gay person by the actions we see Jack take at the first meeting. Maybe I'm just dense.

No, not dense. We have to remember, as much as I don't want to most times, Jack and Ennis are the product of writers, actors and a director. What we see on the screen is them acting like what they think Ennis and Jack would act like. That is not the reality of the 1960's.

irving · « **Reply #47 on:** May 03, 2006, 02:04 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 03:58 PM

boo boo, just what should have been said right away, Jack was being Jack. Many times I think we are overanalyzing...
with the rodeo clown, Jack was being Jack. with Randall, Jack was being Jack. at the first meeting, Jack was being Jack.

I agree with you....Jack is Jack...I don't understand the nitpicking here. Who cares if Jack was flirting or not? I personally don't think he was CONSCIOUSLY flirting. He was just being himself. We don't know what was going on in his head. I just don't think it is all that important in the grand scheme of the plot that unfolds. I mean I have been in situations where I am in a place with a stranger...I mean what do you do...you LOOK at them...is that flirting? And as far as the clown goes....i think Jack was just being friendly...if you say he was flirting...again...WHO CARES? The topic is just moot to me.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #48 on:** May 03, 2006, 02:34 PM »

Quote from: irving on May 03, 2006, 02:04 PM

WHO CARES? The topic is just moot to me.

well...you're right..who cares

It just makes it such a better movie to me personally if he was flirting, subcon or not.... and I just thought of it when I first saw it

OT Moot point...made me think of Joey

Moo point, like a cows opinion, don't matter lol

irving · « **Reply #49 on:** May 04, 2006, 09:44 AM »

Quote from: Esme on May 03, 2006, 02:34 PM

Quote from: irving on May 03, 2006, 02:04 PM
WHO CARES? The topic is just moot to me.

well...you're right..who cares It just makes it such a better movie to me personally if he was flirting, subcon or not.... and I just thought of it when I first saw it

OT Moot point...made me think of Joey Moo point, like a cows opinion, don't matter lol

yeah esme...i guess it is fun to speculate...no harm in that. And I always think of joey when i hear or use that word too. And speaking of Joey....do you think that he and chandler ever had a FNIT (friends night in tent)? hee hee.

jerasjr · « **Reply #50 on:** May 04, 2006, 10:22 AM »

irving, I think the point of a discussion like this, or any discussion on the forum, is to better understand and share your personal
view...whether you agree or not is not necessary. Having grown up in that time period, I think that it was unlikely Jack was flirting. Others don't see that. But the discussion opens up many perspectives. Evidently it wasn't a moot point to the person who cared enough about this point to start the thread, otherwise they would not have posted their thoughts, and this chat enhances their understanding.

jerasjr · « **Reply #51 on:** May 04, 2006, 10:32 AM »

BTW, irving at times do believe we become too nitpicky, but in this instance, think that since this scene sets up the rest of the film, then we should explore it.

bubbaluna · « **Reply #52 on:** May 04, 2006, 10:38 AM »

You know after reading all this I am beginning to think maybe I was wrong. Maybe Jack was "checking out" Ennis at the beginning and had hoped that he could start a conversation but when he saw Ennis put his head down he retreated. Looking at someone and wanting them isn't flirting.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #53 on:** May 04, 2006, 11:19 AM »

Quote from: bubbaluna on May 04, 2006, 10:38 AM

You know after reading all this I am beginning to think maybe I was wrong. Maybe Jack was "checking out" Ennis at the beginning and had hoped that he could start a conversation but when he saw Ennis put his head down he retreated. Looking at someone and wanting them isn't flirting.

Okay, that is a possibility. What is it called when you pretend to shave an already clean shaven face while looking at the guy in your mirror?

bubbaluna · « **Reply #54 on:** May 04, 2006, 11:27 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 04, 2006, 11:19 AM

Quote from: bubbaluna on May 04, 2006, 10:38 AM
You know after reading all this I am beginning to think maybe I was wrong. Maybe Jack was "checking out" Ennis at the beginning and had hoped that he could start a conversation but when he saw Ennis put his head down he retreated. Looking at someone and wanting them isn't flirting.

Okay, that is a possibility. What is it called when you pretend to shave an already clean shaven face while looking at the guy in your mirror?

again that is looking.....even lusting if you will...but that's not flirting

Patriot1 · « **Reply #55 on:** May 04, 2006, 11:39 AM »

Quote from: bubbaluna on May 04, 2006, 11:27 AM

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 04, 2006, 11:19 AM
Quote from: bubbaluna on May 04, 2006, 10:38 AM
You know after reading all this I am beginning to think maybe I was wrong. Maybe Jack was "checking out" Ennis at the beginning and had hoped that he could start a conversation but when he saw Ennis put his head down he retreated. Looking at someone and wanting them isn't flirting.

Okay, that is a possibility. What is it called when you pretend to shave an already clean shaven face while looking at the guy in your mirror?

again that is looking.....even lusting if you will...but that's not flirting

Okay. I'll give you that one. The only way that could be considered flirting is if the other person knows you are doing it. There is no evidence Ennis knew what Jack was doing.

BBBOY · « **Reply #56 on:** May 04, 2006, 04:28 PM »

I was looking for a word the other day when I responded to this thread. The word is posture and I think Jack was posturing when he leaned against the truck and stared at Ennis. I think it is a way young men of that age define themselves to others. It was done in 1963 and is still done today. Probably most alpha males do it in one form or another. Is it flirting as well? Probably but I doubt that the poser is even consciously aware of it, at least not a young fairly innocent 19 year old boy from rural Wyoming.

bubbaluna · « **Reply #57 on:** May 06, 2006, 10:02 AM »

Quote from: BBBOY on May 04, 2006, 04:28 PM

I was looking for a word the other day when I responded to this thread. The word is posture and I think Jack was posturing when he leaned against the truck and stared at Ennis. I think it is a way young men of that age define themselves to others. It was done in 1963 and is still done today. Probably most alpha males do it in one form or another. Is it flirting as well? Probably but I doubt that the poser is even consciously aware of it, at least not a young fairly innocent 19 year old boy from rural Wyoming.

Good word.....I agree!!

donnaread · « **Reply #58 on:** May 06, 2006, 10:44 AM »

Quote from: BBBOY on May 02, 2006, 04:40 PM

Quote from: Esme on May 02, 2006, 03:47 AM
Welcome jackiswear326, enhoy and have fun and cry with the rest of us

I am not sure I think Jack was seeing competition for the job, he had done this last year and knew it was a two man job.

I think it was a mix between actually beeing a bit shy and then curious about someone he thought was handsome.

Now this makes complete, right on sense. Shy but curious. What kind of guy was this stranger gonna be like if they ended up on the mountain together? Good looking enough to take a peek at in the mirror while shaving and I'm sure by that time Jack must have had some limited experience with another young kid. That is what they both were at this time, kids. IMHO I think his posing by the truck was nothing more than what any young man does when shy and unsure of himself when confronting someone similar to himself for the first time.

donnaread · « **Reply #59 on:** May 06, 2006, 10:53 AM »

Quote from: Esme on May 02, 2006, 03:47 AM

I am not sure I think Jack was seeing competition for the job, he had done this last year and knew it was a two man job.

I'm not really sure it WAS a two-man job the year before. Jack says to Ennis about the sheep being struck by lightning "Aguirre got all over my ass like I was supposed to control the weather." It was my impression that this is why Aguirre decided to make it a two-man job this year. PLUS, the short story says they were "glad to have a companion where none was expected." JMO

Donna