Topic: Quotes

[maggie]

Dreams that were thwarted or abandoned unfulfilled - Jack had very little chance of realizing them, given what he was up against. Yet it's Ennis who claims he has and is nothing, and he knows he had dreams only when it's to late even to acknowledge them to the only person who meant anything to him. Perhaps we ought to give Jack more credit for ay least pursuing his dreams, right to the end.

I think it is safe to say, the more one analyzes this quote the more one sees what a strong man Jack has been through the years and what a coward Ennis has been. But this is nothing new, nothing resolved, nothing changed.

i agree jack was strong, not just a dreamer, he fought for what he wanted right up till the end and sadly never got it.  Ennis was weak, his father made him that way the day he took him to see the beaten dead guy in the ditch.   imo....

[Ginevra]

and what a coward Ennis has been. But this is nothing new, nothing resolved, nothing changed.

well, in my opinion it's unfair to say Ennis was a coward. He was a victim. Both of them were victims. Ennis survives, living a life of misery. But it wasn't his fault. Sometimes you simply CANNOT do what you would like to do.

[Patriot1]

and what a coward Ennis has been. But this is nothing new, nothing resolved, nothing changed.

well, in my opinion it's unfair to say Ennis was a coward. He was a victim. Both of them were victims. Ennis survives, living a life of misery. But it wasn't his fault. Sometimes you simply CANNOT do what you would like to do.

I think I would have to agree with you Ginevra. Ennis was a victim of his father and his father's sick homophobic ways. By extention, Jack was also a victim because he was unfortunate enough to fall in love with Ennis.

[Ginevra]

I think I would have to agree with you Ginevra.

thanks, Patriot1! You know what....the truth is sometimes I get terribly protective of Ennis!

Jack was also a victim because he was unfortunate enough to fall in love with Ennis.

I'm afraid I cannot agree on this, though! . In my opinion Jack, however unfortunate he may have been, was lucky enough to experience the true, absolute Love, the one with a capital L. Granted, his fate was tragedy, yet I think those who know love - true love - are the luckiest people of the world. The real tragedy is in fact living without love. And Jack was blessed with the greatest love of all, if only for a brief moment. Incurably romantic, that's what I am!!!

[Patriot1]

I think I would have to agree with you Ginevra.

thanks, Patriot1! You know what....the truth is sometimes I get terribly protective of Ennis!

Jack was also a victim because he was unfortunate enough to fall in love with Ennis.

I'm afraid I cannot agree on this, though! . In my opinion Jack, however unfortunate he may have been, was lucky enough to experience the true, absolute Love, the one with a capital L. Granted, his fate was tragedy, yet I think those who know love - true love - are the luckiest people of the world. The real tragedy is in fact living without love. And Jack was blessed with the greatest love of all, if only for a brief moment. Incurably romantic, that's what I am!!!

Ginevra, I say Jack was a victim because he never got what he wanted, or needed, from Ennis. Ennis could never admit he was in love with Jack. I think their last time together Jack expressed it when he told Ennis he couldn't live on 1 or 2 high altitude f**ks a year. I think it was obvious Jack was hurting when he told Ennis the night before that, "Turth is...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Jack was not a happy man, and neither was Ennis.

Both men had what the other one needed but, because of Ennis' father and what he did when Ennis was nine years old, neither one got it.  They were both victims I think.

[welshwitch]

Almost every one of the main characters was a victim in some way - Ennis of his father's conditioning, Jack of Ennis's fears, the two wives of husbands who really wanted to be with someone else, the children - ennis's saw him but weren't really part of his life and Bobby lost his father at a very early age too. Cassie was another victim - of Ennis's inability to commit t o anyone other than Jack, and not to commit to him wholeheartedly either.

[rick65]

Almost every one of the main characters was a victim in some way - Ennis of his father's conditioning, Jack of Ennis's fears, the two wives of husbands who really wanted to be with someone else, the children - ennis's saw him but weren't really part of his life and Bobby lost his father at a very early age too. Cassie was another victim - of Ennis's inability to commit t o anyone other than Jack, and not to commit to him wholeheartedly either.

I completely agree with you WW. But even though there were reasons for their victimization within these interpersonal relationships, we can't dismiss the "big picture." This, to me, is a world where love is not appreciated, much less tolerated, if it doesn't fit into the mold that society has deemed acceptable. When two people, such as Jack and Ennis, who perfectly fit together are not allowed to develop their relationship, despite what they would like to do, it affects everyone else they come in contact with.
Again, there are many factors which form this story into making it as complex as it is. Many victims, many survivors, and, yet, all just one enormous tragedy.  :\'( :\'(

[greenfrog]

Basque: Thought you didn't eat soup.

Ennis Del Mar: Yeah, well I'm sick of beans.

Basque: Too early in summer to be sick of beans.

[welshwitch]

Just posted on BBM Recital - the bit where Jack says " We got to do something about this food situation" and goes on to propose shooting a sheep. Ennis disagrees and says he'll stick with beans, to which Jack replies, "Well, I won't." It suddenly struck me that this set the pattern for all the rest of the story - Jackl never wants to be bound by convention or the rules but doesn;t care if he transgresses them; Ennis, however, is always going to be afraid to do anything unconventional, differnt, that might attract disapproval or trouble - he'll be satisfied with what he can get, however limited.

And that's their relationship in a nutshell; if Jack had been more of a psychologist he could have read Ennis at this point and known that Ennis would never even try to achieve the sweet life with him.

[ksxks]

Just posted on BBM Recital - the bit where Jack says " We got to do something about this food situation" and goes on to propose shooting a sheep. Ennis disagrees and says he'll stick with beans, to which Jack replies, "Well, I won't." It suddenly struck me that this set the pattern for all the rest of the story - Jackl never wants to be bound by convention or the rules but doesn;t care if he transgresses them; Ennis, however, is always going to be afraid to do anything unconventional, differnt, that might attract disapproval or trouble - he'll be satisfied with what he can get, however limited.

And that's their relationship in a nutshell; if Jack had been more of a psychologist he could have read Ennis at this point and known that Ennis would never even try to achieve the sweet life with him.

Excellent, WW.  Except that, even if Jack had really read Ennis at this point, he still would have kept trying.  The dreamer, believing he could change Ennis.  After all, they were young men -- I think at that age, both of them might even have believed that things can change.

kathy

[welshwitch]

Agreed, they were too young to be have much insight and given Jack's character he wouldn't have given up easily. not so sure about Ennis - i think essentially he was never really open to possibilities because he was too busy clinging to what he saw as safety.

[rick65]

I can only completely agree with respect to the earlier posts. Ennis fears change, fears being branded "different," and ultimately fears that any difference will bring about a beating. He can't see the benefits of trying "something else." Jack may have been more willing to find a way to establish a more permanence in the relationship with Ennis; but he, too, feels the responsibility of a wife and a son and a life in Texas.
They seemed to have experienced a time when there were no intrusion from others, themselves, or life's burdens, only once. When the  greatest worry were the coyotes. Jack may have overly simplified the complexity of their love, when in anger he refers to this idyllic point in time, a point in time etched onto their beings, which they could never go back to or discover again, "All we got is Brokeback Mountain... that's all." 
I tend to think that both Ennis and Jack believed they shared much more than those two months; yet, were painfully unable to recreate any semblance of that time- in which they gave only to each other, assisted only each other, took only from each other, and thought only about each other. Yes, those were good times. But the product of that mountain was a love; much greater than anything they had ever experienced before and something which was more significant than anything they would ever experience since.

[BBBOY]

Well put rick65. Very true.

[ksxks]

Agreed, they were too young to be have much insight and given Jack's character he wouldn't have given up easily. not so sure about Ennis - i think essentially he was never really open to possibilities because he was too busy clinging to what he saw as safety.

That is the relevant word there, WW, safety.  He just had so much fear about life in all ways.  But still, in his heart of hearts, I bet he had some dreams, too...

kathy

[BBBOY]

Agreed, they were too young to be have much insight and given Jack's character he wouldn't have given up easily. not so sure about Ennis - i think essentially he was never really open to possibilities because he was too busy clinging to what he saw as safety.

That is the relevant word there, WW, safety.  He just had so much fear about life in all ways.  But still, in his heart of hearts, I bet he had some dreams, too...

kathy

If one lives without dreams then one is dead.

[ksxks]

I can only completely agree with respect to the earlier posts. Ennis fears change, fears being branded "different," and ultimately fears that any difference will bring about a beating. He can't see the benefits of trying "something else." Jack may have been more willing to find a way to establish a more permanence in the relationship with Ennis; but he, too, feels the responsibility of a wife and a son and a life in Texas.
They seemed to have experienced a time when there were no intrusion from others, themselves, or life's burdens, only once. When the  greatest worry were the coyotes. Jack may have overly simplified the complexity of their love, when in anger he refers to this idyllic point in time, a point in time etched onto their beings, which they could never go back to or discover again, "All we got is Brokeback Mountain... that's all." 
I tend to think that both Ennis and Jack believed they shared much more than those two months; yet, were painfully unable to recreate any semblance of that time- in which they gave only to each other, assisted only each other, took only from each other, and thought only about each other. Yes, those were good times. But the product of that mountain was a love; much greater than anything they had ever experienced before and something which was more significant than anything they would ever experience since.

Beautiful words.  Very beautiful post, rick.  How sad, they were "unable to recreate any semblance of that time..."

kathy

[FlwrChild]

I must agree - quite beautifully put rick.

[welshwitch]

You can see the movie as an example of the transience of happiness. Young love, before the world and its responsibilities and complexities intrudes, can be idyllic. Theri particular relationship would have been unlikely to start elsewhere - it was the world-out-of-world  aspect of BBM that made it possible and allowed Ennis to act out of character. Their later  meetings were always plagued by the sense of "time's winged chariot hurrying near" and I think in the scene by the lake there's something of the sort of anger and frustration everyone feels as they sense themselves aging, feel that their dreams will never become reality, see possibilities disappearing and choices becoming more limited. For them because of the long gaps between their meetings it's worse because they've kept almost but not quite recreating that first summer on Brokeback and have kept it as an ideal long after most of us, in the normal way of things, would have let it become a part of the past. The rage is partly at the loss of what still seems relatively close to them, or at least to Jack - I think Ennis may have more of a sense of the passing of time and the changes it brings - but also an undertone at raging of the dying of the light, to quote ( almost) one of the twentieth century's great poems.

[FlwrChild]

Very well put welshwitch! Wouldn't it be wonderful, though, if we could all find our Brokeback Mountain and then also be able to figure out how to take it down into the world with us and keep it protected and nurtured.....hmm....I guess that's what so many of us have gotten from this forum.....

[rick65]

You can see the movie as an example of the transience of happiness... they've kept almost but not quite recreating that first summer on Brokeback and have kept it as an ideal long after most of us, in the normal way of things, would have let it become a part of the past. The rage is partly at the loss of what still seems relatively close to them, or at least to Jack - I think Ennis may have more of a sense of the passing of time and the changes it brings - but also an undertone at raging of the dying of the light, to quote ( almost) one of the twentieth century's great poems.

Well said, WW! When I watch the movie, the time long gone element gets put on the shelf. I guess I become a Jack, who feels that there is still hope that they can run up the mountainside and forget the troubles of daily life, something of which, like you mentioned, Ennis cannot ignore. But, yet, they're only 39 years old. Hope is still attainable. Their emotions for each other have remained as strong as when they were young and innocent. A life together is not unreachable. It would be difficult for them to arrive, as it's always been, but they hold on to that goal. I like your use of "rage at the loss," and that this loss will never be replaced. But wasn't there some way to progress their relationship, even while including adult responsibilities? I imagine if you're stuck somewhere and can't move, you'll remain, and that's the tragedy which this tale illustrates.

[BBBOY]

You can see the movie as an example of the transience of happiness... they've kept almost but not quite recreating that first summer on Brokeback and have kept it as an ideal long after most of us, in the normal way of things, would have let it become a part of the past. The rage is partly at the loss of what still seems relatively close to them, or at least to Jack - I think Ennis may have more of a sense of the passing of time and the changes it brings - but also an undertone at raging of the dying of the light, to quote ( almost) one of the twentieth century's great poems.

Well said, WW! When I watch the movie, the time long gone element gets put on the shelf. I guess I become a Jack, who feels that there is still hope that they can run up the mountainside and forget the troubles of daily life, something of which, like you mentioned, Ennis cannot ignore. But, yet, they're only 39 years old. Hope is still attainable. Their emotions for each other have remained as strong as when they were young and innocent. A life together is not unreachable. It would be difficult for them to arrive, as it's always been, but they hold on to that goal. I like your use of "rage at the loss," and that this loss will never be replaced. But wasn't there some way to progress their relationship, even while including adult responsibilities? I imagine if you're stuck somewhere and can't move, you'll remain, and that's the tragedy which this tale illustrates.

I'm 59, going on 60, an I still believe there is a love out there for me that will never grow old. Foolish, probably, but I'm not gonna give up hoping.

[Audrey twist]

Jack I swear...  :\'(

[ksxks]

I'm 59, going on 60, an I still believe there is a love out there for me that will never grow old. Foolish, probably, but I'm not gonna give up hoping.

I was 59-1/2 the other day...and I also believe that the love that will never grow old is not out of the question.  But we have to do more than hope, of course.  And that is one of the lessons of BBM for us.

kathy

[BBBOY]

]

I was 59-1/2 the other day...and I also believe that the love that will never grow old is not out of the question.  But we have to do more than hope, of course.  And that is one of the lessons of BBM for us.

kathy

Very true friend, very true. When I get out of this situation I am in I shall activelly be looking for that love. 

[ksxks]

I don't need to know the details of your "situation," but do keep at it, getting to a place where you're free to seek love, to be open to love seeking you.  I'm saying this to myself as well as to you.

And I just noticed your signature!  Good one!

kathy

[AnitaSmith]

This has probably already been discussed and I missed it.  It's the references to "springs of whiskey" in the film.  When Jack suggests to Ennis that perhaps he (Ennis) could move to Texas, Ennis responds sarcastically stating that both of their families could live together.  They Ennis makes a reference to Jack being unrealistic in hoping on "rivers of whiskey."  (I'm not sure about the exact quote).  Then later on in the film, when Ennis calls Laureen after he finds out that Jack has died, Laureen brings up that reference again relative to Jack.  That reference is so sad to me.  Because Jack Twist had a great love right in front of him.  He wasn't dreaming or fantasizing about it as one would about "whiskey flowing in the river." For Jack, he would have been more likely to find a stream of whiskey then he would a life together with Ennis.

[chameau]

IMO, they refer to it as some paradise, where bluebirds sing and there a whiskey spring. I would say paradise as some garden of Eden for Jack and Ennis.

[greenfrog]

Ennis Del Mar: We can get together... once in a while, way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, but...
Jack Twist: Once in a while? Every four fu**in' years?
Ennis Del Mar: If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it.
Jack Twist: For how long?
Ennis Del Mar: For as long as we can ride it. There ain't no reins on this one.

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

The line "for as long as we can ride it" always tears my up.

[NoReins]

Ennis Del Mar: We can get together... once in a while, way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, but...
Jack Twist: Once in a while? Every four f***in' years?
Ennis Del Mar: If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it.
Jack Twist: For how long?
Ennis Del Mar: For as long as we can ride it. There ain't no reins on this one.

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

The line "for as long as we can ride it" always tears my up.

For me, it's the "ain't no reins on this one" that gets me every time. I think it's the little hitch in Ennis's breath just before he says it, like he's trying so hard to hold back the tears at having to say no to what he wants every bit as much as Jack does. And then Jack reaches over and strokes his cheek because he understands.... :\'( :\'( :\'(

[jeffjoe]

Don't try and fool me no more, Ennis; I know what it means! Jack Twist. Jack Nasty! You didn't go up there to fish!