Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"

[mactwck]

To get back to the cheating part....
I love jack and I do feel his pain, but it is not that hard to be faithful to someone.  If he truely loved Ennis in a way that they were soulmate he would not have gone looking for other men.  I know this will not be a popular opinion, but it is how I feel.  Even when things were bad his love for Ennis did not stop him from looking?  Remember 20 years of somethings are better than nothing.  Damn you Jack, I swear.....

[Patriot1]

To get back to the cheating part....
I love jack and I do feel his pain, but it is not that hard to be faithful to someone.  If he truely loved Ennis in a way that they were soulmate he would not have gone looking for other men.  I know this will not be a popular opinion, but it is how I feel.  Even when things were bad his love for Ennis did not stop him from looking?  Remember 20 years of somethings are better than nothing.  Damn you Jack, I swear.....

Well, you got a friend here mactwck.  The first time I heard Jack say he couldn't make it in a couple of high-altitude f**ks a year, I burst into laughter in the theater.  I then mentioned it here.  It was not a popular stand.  What about people who have never had it?  What about soldiers who go away from home for a year at a time, or longer. Are they to be unfaithful? Don't think I am condemning Jack for his unfaithfulness but I sure don't understand it.

Having said that, I suppose that when there is no commitment from both parties, there is no reason to be faithful. I may love Jake Gyllenhaal but until he made a commitment to me, why be faithful?

[tpe]

I would even venture to say that I love Jack Twist because of this failing.  So many of us relate to this.  It is all too human: the need to find surrogates when the desire goes unfulfilled.  Faithfulness, even in heterosexual marriages, is always harder without physical proximity.  It is certainly one important reason why couples have children -- to solidify a bond in the form of flesh and blood intermingled.

I love the characters precisely for their failings.  These failings -- they are the power and the glory of BBM.  The story would be banal without it.  It reminds us that human relationships are never so simple.  People are never so simple.  And love can be so complex by virtue of its inherent simplicity.

[MississaugaRed]

I would even venture to say that I love Jack Twist because of this failing.  So many of us relate to this.  It is all too human: the need to find surrogates when the desire goes unfulfilled.  Faithfulness, even in heterosexual marriages, is always harder without physical proximity.  It is certainly one important reason why couples have children -- to solidify a bond in the form of flesh and blood intermingled.

I love the characters precisely for their failings.  These failings -- they are the power and the glory of BBM.  The story would be banal without it.  It reminds us that human relationships are never so simple.  People are never so simple.  And love can be so complex by virtue of its inherent simplicity.

tpe, so true ... this was no "Hollywood" love story.  It felt like we were watching real people, real lives unfold before our eyes; it felt intimate. And it has made almost everything else I've seen before or since seem banal by comparison.  A new pinnacle has been reached with BBM in terms of  connection between story-tellers and story-viewers.

Jack and Ennis did not lead fairy-tale perfect lives, together or apart.  If we can know that, and still love them, it's possible to love ourselves in the face of our own failings.  It was possible for them to love each other even after it became apparent that "the rest" included their failings; those failings which had lead them to this place and this moment of revelation.

If BBM reads as real-life (which to me it does) and is considered a masterpiece, then I guess life itself is a masterpiece. We just rarely see it portrayed as such.  BBM is a true gift.

[tpe]

tpe, so true ... this was no "Hollywood" love story.  It felt like we were watching real people, real lives unfold before our eyes; it felt intimate. And it has made almost everything else I've seen before or since seem banal by comparison.  A new pinnacle has been reached with BBM in terms of  connection between story-tellers and story-viewers.

Jack and Ennis did not lead fairy-tale perfect lives, together or apart.  If we can know that, and still love them, it's possible to love ourselves in the face of our own failings.  It was possible for them to love each other even after it became apparent that "the rest" included their failings; those failings which had lead them to this place and this moment of revelation.

If BBM reads as real-life (which to me it does) and is considered a masterpiece, then I guess life itself is a masterpiece. We just rarely see it portrayed as such.  BBM is a true gift.

Yes.  We love them because we have been there.

[welshwitch]

And because like all the great fictional characters they are imperfect, damaged, the golden bowl with its flaw.

[LuvJackNasty]

Well said {as usual} Tpe & Miss-Red and so true.

[tpe]

And because like all the great fictional characters they are imperfect, damaged, the golden bowl with its flaw.

"The golden bowl--as it WAS to have been." And Maggie dwelt musingly on this obscured figure. "The bowl with all our happiness in it. The bowl without the crack."


Henry James -- 'The Golden Bowl'

[edgar]

And because like all the great fictional characters they are imperfect, damaged, the golden bowl with its flaw.

"The golden bowl--as it WAS to have been." And Maggie dwelt musingly on this obscured figure. "The bowl with all our happiness in it. The bowl without the crack."


Henry James -- 'The Golden Bowl'

"Lest the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the golden bowl be broken at the cistern..." (Ecclesiastes)

[tpe]

And because like all the great fictional characters they are imperfect, damaged, the golden bowl with its flaw.

"The golden bowl--as it WAS to have been." And Maggie dwelt musingly on this obscured figure. "The bowl with all our happiness in it. The bowl without the crack."


Henry James -- 'The Golden Bowl'

"Lest the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the golden bowl be broken at the cistern..." (Ecclesiastes)

Thanks you edgar.  The obscured figure: so true to the spirit of BBM!! 

[shieldmaid]

I love the golden bowl metaphor here--so appropriate.

I think it's important for us, too, to see Jack's imperfections.  After reading the many threads here over the past 5 months, I feel like Ennis sometimes gets more of the blame than he maybe deserves.  He wasn't perfect, but neither was Jack.  They were totally human, with human frailties--and that's why we love them, and why they love each other, so much.

On a more personal note, I do wish that Jack hadn't been unfaithful to Ennis--but I also wish Ennis had been willing to try a life together with Jack.  So it goes.

[mactwck]

To get back to the cheating part....
I love jack and I do feel his pain, but it is not that hard to be faithful to someone.  If he truely loved Ennis in a way that they were soulmate he would not have gone looking for other men.  I know this will not be a popular opinion, but it is how I feel.  Even when things were bad his love for Ennis did not stop him from looking?  Remember 20 years of somethings are better than nothing.  Damn you Jack, I swear.....

Well, you got a friend here mactwck.  The first time I heard Jack say he couldn't make it in a couple of high-altitude f**ks a year, I burst into laughter in the theater.  I then mentioned it here.  It was not a popular stand.  What about people who have never had it?  What about soldiers who go away from home for a year at a time, or longer. Are they to be unfaithful? Don't think I am condemning Jack for his unfaithfulness but I sure don't understand it.

Having said that, I suppose that when there is no commitment from both parties, there is no reason to be faithful. I may love Jake Gyllenhaal but until he made a commitment to me, why be faithful?

Nice to know that I am not the only one.  And the Jake thing, if I had actually slept with Jake I would be faithful...then again he would probably be dead from exhaustion.

[karen1129]

I love the golden bowl metaphor here--so appropriate.

I think it's important for us, too, to see Jack's imperfections.  After reading the many threads here over the past 5 months, I feel like Ennis sometimes gets more of the blame than he maybe deserves.  He wasn't perfect, but neither was Jack.  They were totally human, with human frailties--and that's why we love them, and why they love each other, so much.

On a more personal note, I do wish that Jack hadn't been unfaithful to Ennis--but I also wish Ennis had been willing to try a life together with Jack.  So it goes.

Ennis never gave Jack any reason to believe they would ever be in a committed relationship.
Jack wanted one.  Jack's needs were indeed more than Ennis's.  He was satisfied with
a couple of high altitude f...ks a couple of times a years.

[frances]

I would even venture to say that I love Jack Twist because of this failing.  So many of us relate to this.  It is all too human: the need to find surrogates when the desire goes unfulfilled.  Faithfulness, even in heterosexual marriages, is always harder without physical proximity.  It is certainly one important reason why couples have children -- to solidify a bond in the form of flesh and blood intermingled.

I love the characters precisely for their failings.  These failings -- they are the power and the glory of BBM.  The story would be banal without it.  It reminds us that human relationships are never so simple.  People are never so simple.  And love can be so complex by virtue of its inherent simplicity.

tpe, so true ... this was no "Hollywood" love story.  It felt like we were watching real people, real lives unfold before our eyes; it felt intimate. And it has made almost everything else I've seen before or since seem banal by comparison.  A new pinnacle has been reached with BBM in terms of  connection between story-tellers and story-viewers.

Jack and Ennis did not lead fairy-tale perfect lives, together or apart.  If we can know that, and still love them, it's possible to love ourselves in the face of our own failings.  It was possible for them to love each other even after it became apparent that "the rest" included their failings; those failings which had lead them to this place and this moment of revelation.

If BBM reads as real-life (which to me it does) and is considered a masterpiece, then I guess life itself is a masterpiece. We just rarely see it portrayed as such.  BBM is a true gift.

"To look life in the face, always, to look life in the face and to know it for what it is"

That's why I loved BBM so much.

[tpe]

"To look life in the face, always, to look life in the face and to know it for what it is"

That's why I loved BBM so much.

And I have come to love that quote very much.  I keep it by my side.

[keren_b]

Ennis never gave Jack any reason to believe they would ever be in a committed relationship.
Jack wanted one.  Jack's needs were indeed more than Ennis's.  He was satisfied with
a couple of high altitude f...ks a couple of times a years.

I'm not sure Jack's needs were more than Ennis's, or that Ennis was satisfied with a couple of high altitude f**ks a couple of times a year. I'm sure Ennis wanted more, but he was too inhibited and repressed to act on his wanting. They were different in character. Jack expressed his frustration and his needs, while Ennis held everything inside. While Jack went to Mexico, Ennis probably wrang himself up constantly thinking about Jack but never said a word about it, it wasn't in his character to admit how much he wanted and needed Jack. He had all kinds of psychological reasons to hold back, but it doesn't mean he didn't feel just as strong.

[Valandil Eluch]

Ennis never gave Jack any reason to believe they would ever be in a committed relationship.
Jack wanted one.  Jack's needs were indeed more than Ennis's.  He was satisfied with
a couple of high altitude f...ks a couple of times a years.

I'm not sure Jack's needs were more than Ennis's, or that Ennis was satisfied with a couple of high altitude f**ks a couple of times a year. I'm sure Ennis wanted more, but he was too inhibited and repressed to act on his wanting. They were different in character. Jack expressed his frustration and his needs, while Ennis held everything inside. While Jack went to Mexico, Ennis probably wrang himself up constantly thinking about Jack but never said a word about it, it wasn't in his character to admit how much he wanted and needed Jack. He had all kinds of psychological reasons to hold back, but it doesn't mean he didn't feel just as strong.

you are right Keren, besides even in the begining is expressed that with the statement that he had being riding more than bulls now wranging up himself and Ennis admitting he wrang himself up thinking about Jack many times. so that is not the real truth

Ennis and Jack were completely different in their needs and saying that for he was satisfied with once or twice a year that is totally unfair! for Ennis that wasn't enough either but he was afraid of the Tire Irons, so he forced himself to have Jack only that way protecting themselves in the middle of nowhere. And Jack he was more emotive in the relationship but we are not going to give him a crown and say it i was all Ennis fault when it's not it none of them fault. if we look for a guilty that would but the society (mmmm i think that i just went  )

[tpe]

Thanks all for sharing these wonderful thoughts.  The final meeting illuminates as much as it obscures the relationship of Ennis and Jack.  For every answer, there are more questions.  This is true to life itself.  And this is why your posts move me as much as they challenge me to see what we shall never truly know...

[Valandil Eluch]

tpe thanks to you!!!

[tpe]

Carlos_H82, when you said:

Ennis and Jack were completely different in their needs...

you were not really OOT.  What you said is at the root of "all the rest". 

What Ennis and Jack certainly did not realize then was that "all the rest" meant everything they did not want to face up to -- all the needs one had that the other could have provided.  Their needs are indeed different.  But the tragedy is one and the same.

[Valandil Eluch]

Carlos_H82, when you said:

Ennis and Jack were completely different in their needs...

you were not really OOT.  What you said is at the root of "all the rest". 

What Ennis and Jack certainly did not realize then was that "all the rest" meant everything they did not want to face up to -- all the needs one had that the other could have provided.  Their needs are indeed different.  But the tragedy is one and the same.

which hits you more because we were unable to do anything we just saw them and were unable to help them

[tpe]

which hits you more because we were unable to do anything we just saw them and were unable to help them

How many times in that last quarrel did we not just feel that we HAD to intervene.  I certainly did.  That is I think why I am so emotionally affected by that one scene.  It is because we know that we are powerless to help them.

[Valandil Eluch]

which hits you more because we were unable to do anything we just saw them and were unable to help them

How many times in that last quarrel did we not just feel that we HAD to intervene.  I certainly did.  That is I think why I am so emotionally affected by that one scene.  It is because we know that we are powerless to help them.

sad but true we are just watching them hurting each other with those lines  :\'( :\'( :\'( even thogh we knew they love each other!

[LuvJackNasty]

which hits you more because we were unable to do anything we just saw them and were unable to help them

How many times in that last quarrel did we not just feel that we HAD to intervene.  I certainly did.  That is I think why I am so emotionally affected by that one scene.  It is because we know that we are powerless to help them.

sad but true we are just watching them hurting each other with those lines  :\'( :\'( :\'( even thogh we knew they love each other!

So true Carlos and TPE. That scene gets me everytime.  :\'(

[hpv]

Reading all those  mesmerizing interpretations is one of the resons I love to be here   
 

[tpe]

Reading all those  mesmerizing interpretations is one of the resons I love to be here   
 

So true hpv.  I am happy to be here  with friends who love the scenes in BBM in surprisingly deep and meaningful ways.

[welshwitch]

The more I look at those lines, the same ones in both the ss and the script, the more I don't understand them. When Jack says, " if you don't never know the rest" is he implying that he hopes Ennis never will understand all the other things about their relationship, because there's no point in his doing so now? In  other words, is he saying this is the end, he's said all he can and there's no way Ennis is going to change so there's no point in going on?

[keren_b]

The more I look at those lines, the same ones in both the ss and the script, the more I don't understand them. When Jack says, " if you don't never know the rest" is he implying that he hopes Ennis never will understand all the other things about their relationship, because there's no point in his doing so now? In  other words, is he saying this is the end, he's said all he can and there's no way Ennis is going to change so there's no point in going on?

I don't think he doesn't want Ennis to know the rest and to understand all the things about their relationship, but I think he realize that Ennis is not willing to know, and can't deal with all these truths. whether it's the good stuff (like how deeply and totally Jack loves him) or the bad stuff (Jack having sex with other men), Ennis refuses to recognize all that. Saying "all these things I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them", is actually a way to say "I don't wanna hear it and I don't wanna know". So I thought jack meant to say, I hope you know that because of your stubborness and your refusal the only thing we got left now is this mountain, and I hope you know this one truth even if you can't accept all the others... and I don't think he meant this is the end, because after that he said "I wish I knew how to quit you" and by that admitted that he can't quit Ennis, and that this thing will never be over...

[welshwitch]

In which case he's saying he accepts Ennis with all his limitations and emotional hang-ups, but still can;t give him up? I like that.

[ksxks]

I also think, like others have said before me, that "the rest" is not just one spesific thing but a number of things. The way I understand it, Jack is saying "I hope you know that" - that all we have is Brokeback mountain and we have nothing beyond that, because you wouldn't commit to our love and you wouldn't come and live with me, so I hope you know that this situation is your fault, "if you don't never know the rest" - if you never know how much I love you, how much I need you, if you never know how much I miss you and how much it hurts, and how bad it gets, to the point that I seek relief in the arms of other men just because I can't be with you... There are a lot of things that Ennis doesn't know or realise until it's too late.

This such a fascinating and difficult scene to discuss, such pent-up love and frustration.  All summing up, as ethan said I think, the state of their relationship.  I love how you've said it here, keren, and I would add at the end of what Ennis doesn't know:  if you never know...the life we could have had, how much love I could have given you...

kathy