Author Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"  (Read 133732 times)

Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #150 on: Jun 23, 2006, 06:34 PM »
I read this at lunchtime-yet another day of crying at my desk!  :'(
The rest is so many things to me- much of which has already been expressed so beautifully by everyone here.

The rest is the missed opportunities and a love squandered due to Ennis' fear and reluctance to accept the truth about himself and ultimately their relationship.
I can only imagine that each time Jack's suggestions were rebuffed that it killed Jack a little more each time and that it was like being hit with a tire iron emotionally.

The rest is the love Jack has for Ennis and him being fed up with only feeling truly alive when Ennis sees fit. Jack put his hopes and dreams on the backburner for 20 years. He is not able to express what is truly in his heart for fear that he would scare Ennis off. The sacrifices and concessions that Jack has made over the years to keep the relationship going. That Jack would have given up everything for a life with Ennis

The rest is that Ennis will only be with Jack hidden away- Jack feeling Ennis is ashamed of him and the truth about what he represents in his life.

"What we got now is BBM"- all we have is what could have been- everything is built on trying to recapture that perfect summer of 1963. The rest: "I've been doing everything in my power to keep that alive and you've thrown up roadblocks every step of the way. But no matter how many times you've rejected me, I could never stop loving you." "But you didn't want it Ennis"- You didn't want to accept the truth. You didn't want it to be me."

Ennis could no longer deny "the rest" when he found those shirts.   


Beautiful, poignant words, LJN.  You've said it so well.  You really understand Jack.  Here's what got me the most, an aspect I hadn't quite realized before:  "He [Jack] is not able to express what is truly in his heart for fear that he would scare Ennis off."  Just heartbreaking.

I think I'm going to go visit someplace silly and fun like Jakelicks; I don't want any more deep thinking and feeling right now.

kathy
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #151 on: Jun 23, 2006, 06:44 PM »
[quoteThe rest is the love Jack has for Ennis and him being fed up with only feeling truly alive when Ennis sees fit. Jack put his hopes and dreams on the backburner for 20 years. He is not able to express what is truly in his heart for fear that he would scare Ennis off. The sacrifices and concessions that Jack has made over the years to keep the relationship going. That Jack would have given up everything for a life with Ennis
Quote

Even though it's not in the original story, when Ennis, sobbing, tells Jack, "It's because a you Jack that I'm like this; I'm  nobody, nowhere!" , I can see in Ennis' convoluted/cramped vision of their relationship, that he's lived life on the edge ever since the first reunion.  Ennis has taken only fleeting and temporary, low-paying jobs which he could quit or take off at a moment's notice whenever an opportunity to be with Jack appeared.  He moved willingly into Riverton, into an apartment, so he could leave anytime; something he couldn't do on a ranch, leaving only Alma and the girls.  It seems to me Ennis sacrificed any and all financial security just to be ready to be with Jack on the Mountain.  Perhaps Ennis' way of showing "love" for Jack was clumsy and tunnel-visioned, but his utter devotion to Jack seems apparent to me.  The tragedy of the entire relationship was Ennis' deathly fear of being discovered, and his fear of relocating somewhere else out of Wyoming,  something Jack didn't care about overmuch.  The two dear, tragic men were never able to reconcile themselves to any sort of happy medium for a fulfilling life together.

More breaking my heart, Kemmer.  Most posts so far focus on how Jack has been getting the shaft from Ennis, so I love what you say here about Ennis -- his love for Jack is no less certain than Jack's for his, but he doesn't know how to make it his real life, life with Jack.

kathy
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #152 on: Jun 23, 2006, 06:48 PM »

It's heartbreaking to think how differently things might have tirned out for Jack and Ennis if they had met in 1993.  But I supposed that would only would have opened up many other cans of worms. 

 :-\I withdraw my speculation.

That's very funny -- I just now started on that train of thought myself and started writing about it, in my previous reply to your previous post, but deleted it -- it gets too complicated, the what-if's...  I'm withdrawing my speculation also.   ;)

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #153 on: Jun 27, 2006, 07:10 AM »

It's heartbreaking to think how differently things might have tirned out for Jack and Ennis if they had met in 1993.  But I supposed that would only would have opened up many other cans of worms. 

 :-\I withdraw my speculation.

That's very funny -- I just now started on that train of thought myself and started writing about it, in my previous reply to your previous post, but deleted it -- it gets too complicated, the what-if's...  I'm withdrawing my speculation also.   ;)

kathy


I am sure there would have been sharp differences.  But sometimes I do wonder.  After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...

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Offline Patriot1

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #154 on: Jun 27, 2006, 08:11 AM »
I am sure there would have been sharp differences.  But sometimes I do wonder.  After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...

 Just two minor corrections TPE. 

:\'(   Matthew Shepard died at 12:53am on October 12, 1998.   :\'(





"His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears."





« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2006, 09:39 AM by Patriot1 »
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #155 on: Jun 27, 2006, 09:07 AM »
I am sure there would have been sharp differences.  But sometimes I do wonder.  After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...

 Just two minor corrections TPE. 

:\'(   Matthew Shepard died at 12:53am on October 12, 1998.   :\'(





You are right Patriot1.  The murder occured a full year after the publication of BBM in 1997. 

It certainly drives the point home, doesn't it?


Offline Twisted

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #156 on: Jun 27, 2006, 09:15 AM »
Why the world is so cruel? :\'( :\'(
The most difficult scene was the paragraph where, on the mountain, Ennis holds Jack and rocks back and forth, humming, the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man.

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From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood, Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #157 on: Jun 27, 2006, 09:20 AM »
Why the world is so cruel? :\'( :\'(


I am just glad that it is not all cruel. 

So long as there are people willing to know the rest, there is hope.


Offline hpv

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #158 on: Jun 27, 2006, 11:23 AM »
I am sure there would have been sharp differences.  But sometimes I do wonder.  After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...

 Just two minor corrections TPE. 

:'(   Matthew Shepard died at 12:53am on October 12, 1998.   :'(




"His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears."

Why the world is so cruel? :'( :'(

I am just glad that it is not all cruel. 
So long as there are people willing to know the rest, there is hope.


We can't  live without a hope for a better tomorrow..
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close,the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."
"I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #159 on: Jun 27, 2006, 01:05 PM »
We can't  live without a hope for a better tomorrow..

Yes, we cannot.  And we will not.

I do see Kemmer's original point.  Without the will to change things for the future, it will not have mattered if it was 1963 or today.  We all hope that some progress has been made.




Offline keren_b

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #160 on: Jun 29, 2006, 07:23 AM »
I am sure there would have been sharp differences.  But sometimes I do wonder.  After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...

 Just two minor corrections TPE. 

:\'(   Matthew Shepard died at 12:53am on October 12, 1998.   :\'(





"His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears."

"Every time I think of him, I just can't keep from crying"...  trully, every mention of Matthew Shepard brings tears to my eyes. it really gets to me, every time.

Thank you for the link Patriot. I ordered my set of "erase hate" wristbands.
The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #161 on: Jul 01, 2006, 10:59 AM »
Hello, first time here nice toknow. I'm not alone in this fanatic state. loved the movie. In this scene I feel that Jack has finnally been pushed over the edge with Ennis's obsessive fear. after 20 years he still does'nt ( get it!). The frustration Jack must be feeling. The pressures of both their lives away from each other are so overwhelming, although I feel Jack has more at this point. Ennis is now single with 2 girls but they do not live with them ,but he loves them dearly I believe . Jack on the other hand has job ,wife,son,and a father-in-law who's so disgusted with him he'd pay to see him gone. On top of that he's got Ennis's fears to deal with. Mexico, Randall are all part of ("the rest")I can understand some of Ennis's frustration too, coming from a chilhood of loneliness as he did to a certain extent , but here is Jack being told that he won't see Ennis, the love of his life, for month's and month's. Again! The look on Jack's face as they're loading the trucks o leave says alot,sadness,anger and a sense of wondering when all thiwill finnally come to an end ,when he can finnally stay with Ennis forever.The ("fishing trips") are not enough any more. He needs, wants, and deserves more Ennis may not ever know the rest but he's had 20 years to know enough . sorry for rambling on.
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Offline hpv

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #162 on: Jul 01, 2006, 01:51 PM »
Hello, first time here nice to know. I'm not alone in this fanatic state. loved the movie. In this scene I feel that Jack has finally been  He needs, wants, and deserves more Ennis may not ever know the rest but he's had 20 years to know enough . sorry for rambling on.
Hi ! aintfoolin!! ^f^


You absolutely right!!
Never enough time..never enough... :(
 But don't be shy  you can rambling on,your in the right place for it O0
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close,the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."
"I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #163 on: Jul 01, 2006, 04:28 PM »
Hello, first time here nice to know. I'm not alone in this fanatic state. loved the movie. In this scene I feel that Jack has finally been  He needs, wants, and deserves more Ennis may not ever know the rest but he's had 20 years to know enough . sorry for rambling on.
Hi ! aintfoolin!! ^f^


You absolutely right!!
Never enough time..never enough... :(
 But don't be shy  you can rambling on,your in the right place for it O0


Hello aintfoolin, and welcome.  I echo hpv here. 

Love and fear are hopelessly intertwined in this scene from the final meeting.   That is why the frustration is immense on both sides.   This is why we feel for them everytime. 

No apologies needed.  We feel for them everytime.



 

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #164 on: Jul 01, 2006, 10:30 PM »
All through the movie Ennis has been shown to be literally and metaphorically enclosed, cut off, limited. This line seems to be Jack's acknowledgement that Ennis is never going to break free of what keeps him from changing, that he will always be imprisoned by his past experiences, that the unsatisfactory situation isn't something that will change eventually.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #165 on: Jul 02, 2006, 02:02 AM »
All through the movie Ennis has been shown to be literally and metaphorically enclosed, cut off, limited. This line seems to be Jack's acknowledgement that Ennis is never going to break free of what keeps him from changing, that he will always be imprisoned by his past experiences, that the unsatisfactory situation isn't something that will change eventually.

So you mean "the rest" that Ennis will never know is how to live as a free man, free from being so shut into himself?  That's a good way to look at it...and so sad, that Jack would think Ennis would never learn how to feel free to live his love.

kathy
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #166 on: Jul 02, 2006, 06:24 AM »
If you want to push it on a little, that's why Jack's death is significant in a sacrificail sense. It's the only thing that can set Ennis free to aknowledge what heis true feelings were/are; he would never have done so while Jack was alive. So I can see why some people, though not me, see Jack as a Christ-figure, or at least one in the Christian tradition. "Greater love hath no man than that he lay down his life for his friend." I don't subscribe to this - it's a step too far, and Jack didn't and wouldn't have willed his own death. Nevertheless, it works as a means of opening Ennis up to the world of felling and being rather than that of doing, which is the one he's tried to stay in.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #167 on: Jul 02, 2006, 01:51 PM »
Even if he never knows "the rest" it will always be ther in Ennis's mind don't you think? The way Ennis compartmentalizes everything I think that Jack admitting to Mexico opened up a whole can of worms for him. There's so much going on with Ennis at this point that the thought of losing Jack for goodis just too much for him to take.Sad.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #168 on: Jul 17, 2006, 08:08 AM »
Even if he never knows "the rest" it will always be ther in Ennis's mind don't you think? The way Ennis compartmentalizes everything I think that Jack admitting to Mexico opened up a whole can of worms for him. There's so much going on with Ennis at this point that the thought of losing Jack for goodis just too much for him to take.Sad.

I missed this post.  Very well said.  Thanks.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #169 on: Aug 03, 2007, 06:59 PM »
 This  is the thread of my very first post here on ennisjack. com, and i am just as fascinated now by this story as then .Thanks to all of you here I am truly enlightened to much .
 The sense of

 To an extent, I think Ennis suspected some of ' the rest" . Meaning imo Jack's affairs outside the relationship. Jack was keeping secrets, only revealing flings with LaShawn/ and or the hustlers, when Ennis prodded him about Mexico.  but Randall I feel, was a bigger part of " the rest" .  Though hard, Jack was trying to figure a way to give up this dream he had to someday live on a ranch with Ennis. I think Randall was going to play a part in this plan to try and move on.  His significance in the film? He came into Jack;s life at a time when Jack's hopes were dim for a life together with Ennis, a vulnerable time. He needed hope, and Randall gave him that.

Ennis never heard of Randall until after Jack's death.  Mr. Twist said " some ranch neighbor", not his wife. The idea that Jack's parents knew about Randall and Ennis did'nt says to him that Jack was more far gone in his frustration over the whole thing than Ennis ever realized. Jack was already letting go of his sweet life dream with Ennis. It was hard on both of them. I wonder at times had had Jack revealed Randall's existence during this confrontation. What would Ennis's reaction be then? Could Randall have been a catylist? Loosing Jack to another man?
A real live threat to his relationship with Jack.

Ennis wanted to meet with Jack at PineCreek, Would that postcard have been sent if Ennis knew of Randall? Did Ennis feel their love was worth fighting for?  Some say Jack was setting Ennis free, but I don't feel Ennis really wanted to be free of Jack, too dependent and too much in love. Jack had taken a stand, cursed Ennis while held him in his arms. Damn powerful stuff. In light of everything that was said and done during the confrontation, Ennis sent Jack the postcard to meet again. This is deep...But he did'nt know about Randall yet.
, They were'nt kids any more and Jack was tired of playing this wait and wonder game.  With age, perspectives and priorities get juggled around .Though he still loved Ennis deeply. Randall was  a  part of what Ennis did'nt know about the rest of Jack's story at that point.

 Some say that Randall's significance is nil, but I respectfully disagree, He was a big part of "the rest". MO
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #170 on: Aug 03, 2007, 11:34 PM »
Hey, there, aintfoolin ..  ^f^

Your post has me walking down memory lane, too. I remember my early days discussing every nuance of BBM too.  Never get tired of seeing new fans experience all the excitement of exploring what might or might not have been.  I learned so much about the implications of everything from the comments of others, and I can't say enough good things about all the BBM fans who post here.   <^(

Randall has been a source of much contension, considering how brief his appearance in the film was.   Ironic, isn't it, the weight he carried was/is disproportionate to his time in the light, but there it is.  :)

Like you, aintfoolin, I always felt that Randall was a significant part of "the rest".  Mostly because I think this was the time for Jack when he stepped over a new boundary, another blow to his relationship with Ennis.  I'm awed everytime I see the look on Jack's face, that moment on the bench outside the party when Randall suggests that he and Jack get together, "do a little fishin'".   This is different, it's a whole other step away from Ennis, beyond an anonymous encounter into the realm of "real" people.  I always felt that this moment really broke Jack's heart.  If he does this (which it is heavily implied he does), it's one more step away from his dreams of a life with Ennis; one more admission that what he most dearly dreams of isn't within his grasp.

Anyway, I think that the start of Jack's relationship with Randall was one of those watershed moments, one that impacted him through the following years and weighted heavy on his mind when he was with Ennis; "all the rest", that he likely dreaded and wanted Ennis to know, maybe.   :-\\
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #171 on: Aug 04, 2007, 02:07 AM »
Hey, there, aintfoolin ..  ^f^

Your post has me walking down memory lane, too. I remember my early days discussing every nuance of BBM too.  Never get tired of seeing new fans experience all the excitement of exploring what might or might not have been.  I learned so much about the implications of everything from the comments of others, and I can't say enough good things about all the BBM fans who post here.   <^(

Randall has been a source of much contension, considering how brief his appearance in the film was.   Ironic, isn't it, the weight he carried was/is disproportionate to his time in the light, but there it is.  :)

Like you, aintfoolin, I always felt that Randall was a significant part of "the rest".  Mostly because I think this was the time for Jack when he stepped over a new boundary, another blow to his relationship with Ennis.  I'm awed everytime I see the look on Jack's face, that moment on the bench outside the party when Randall suggests that he and Jack get together, "do a little fishin'".   This is different, it's a whole other step away from Ennis, beyond an anonymous encounter into the realm of "real" people.  I always felt that this moment really broke Jack's heart.  If he does this (which it is heavily implied he does), it's one more step away from his dreams of a life with Ennis; one more admission that what he most dearly dreams of isn't within his grasp.

Anyway, I think that the start of Jack's relationship with Randall was one of those watershed moments, one that impacted him through the following years and weighted heavy on his mind when he was with Ennis; "all the rest", that he likely dreaded and wanted Ennis to know, maybe.   :-\\

  Your absolutly right about the forums MissG, if I may. I never tire of reading new perspectives on the threads about this classic film. Some of these older threads are simply fascinating! ..Love reading them.


I'm glad you feel as I do that Randall , even though his role  in the film was small the sigificance of his relationship with Jack makes him  huge. Had Jack really hooked up with Randall he would leave in his wake a road paved with bad decisions, a man  he loved, who did'nt know how to commit fully to a loving relationship due to fear. A failing marrige, entered into for all the wrong reasons and all the drama these relationship entail. I think Jack found Randall's approach refreshing and new.  The sense of the scene that preceded this one where they are packing to leave, You just sense Jack's thinking..".Here we are, once again packing to seperate for months at a time one more f-ckin  time." "I cannot keep doing this.". His face said it all.  :( After 20 years, he's still drifting along. I think as he got older his perspective of his own role in the affair changed at some point, I think it had to. Started to  think of what HE wanted in his maturity. Instead of what every one else wanted. .. including Ennis  He was just  plain tired of having his feelings hurt.

Then along comes Randall... He's different from Ennis ..but not that different. He is calm,softspoken and seems non-threatening. A married man, who was taking a chance of being the one rejected, or something worse, but he did proposition Jack,  This gentle , matter-of-fact approach put Jack at ease somewhat, but as he sat on the bench, I always thought that Jack was questioning the possibilities and the impossibilities. The impications and the what ifs.
Someone wanted him for once. He was was'nt carrying the load by himself  for once. This was new to Jack . Randall was on his level of thinking concerning a secret affair between two men ,not above or below it. Unlike Ennis , he had found a *comfort zone* , and had come to an understanding with his sexuality it seems.  Jack had to appreciate this.
 In his maturity he is aware that Brokeback was the beginning for he and Ennis ,but BB had consumed he and Ennis's lives for 20 years and  it was time to take the relationship  move to a more permanent level and this  is when he discovers that Ennis was stuck in nuetral. Jack had no real solution to convince him otherwise. " that's all we got boy, f-ckin all"!  Randall was a tall ,cool .glass of water in this transitional moment for him. <^( by an  #) :cr) I'll stop rambling now.

..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #172 on: Aug 04, 2007, 08:16 AM »
Was Ennis really working under the illusion that Jack was his and his alone?   What a shot in the gut when he finally understood Jack was not like him.   And how close Ennis wanted to hurt him, because of it. 

"If you don't never know the rest",  Ennis had to understand what it was Jack was telling him.  To understand your lover, you have to understand your lover's nature.  Jack's nature was sensual, open, loving, what did he think drew him to Jack.   Did he really think that a man like Jack could be satisfied with a couple of High Altitude F#@Ks once or twice a year.  Jack was not him.

Jack never totally understood the pain Ennis himself was going through, and Ennis not understanding how much Jack needed him.    So there was Randall a factor that could have brought Jack and Ennis finally together, or rip them apart.  Jack not outright mentioning it was the unknown.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #173 on: Aug 04, 2007, 11:23 AM »
I think in a sense Jack had got to the point where he didn't care what Ennis knew about him; it was evident to him by now that Ennis was not going to change and their relationship could only continue in the same sort of way. A life together was not going to happen. In the past he's dulled the sexual desire by his trips to Mexico, maybe, but they must have been as unsatsifactory as perely physical sex is - he needed more.

When Randall enters the picture and makes that suggestion, I imagine Jack's mind being in a turmoil. If he accepts, he will be unfaithful to Ennis in a way that he hasn't been before - Randall isn't some Mexican hustler he'll only see once in a dark alley. He has a good idea of LaShawn's character and her attitude to Randall - he wouldn't be doing any great harm if he were to become involved with Randall, and he and Lureen have little left between them. He certainly takes the idea seriously enough to talk to his parents about getting divorced, leaving Texas and coming back to LF with someone other than Ennis, and I don't think he's have done that if he hadn't at least thought he meant to do it. His father is already contemptuous of his failure to bring the man he's  mentioned before to help on the ranch.

I think in his mind he's moving on and away from Ennis; Ennis, he thinks, doesn't know what he's suffered and gone through because of Ennis's intransigence and he isn't going to go any further by telling him what's in his mind as a possible future with someone else. Ennis can;t see that anyone can feel so differently from the way Jack does, and Jack knows now that he's never going to be able to get through to him.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #174 on: Aug 04, 2007, 01:38 PM »
Was Ennis really working under the illusion that Jack was his and his alone?   What a shot in the gut when he finally understood Jack was not like him.   And how close Ennis wanted to hurt him, because of it. 

"If you don't never know the rest",  Ennis had to understand what it was Jack was telling him.  To understand your lover, you have to understand your lover's nature.  Jack's nature was sensual, open, loving, what did he think drew him to Jack.   Did he really think that a man like Jack could be satisfied with a couple of High Altitude F#@Ks once or twice a year.  Jack was not him.

Jack never totally understood the pain Ennis himself was going through, and Ennis not understanding how much Jack needed him.    So there was Randall a factor that could have brought Jack and Ennis finally together, or rip them apart.  Jack not outright mentioning it was the unknown.

I feel he was Ennis was living under the assumption that Jack was his alone. Jack was controlling the nature of the relationship, but Ennis controlled the direction of it.
As time went on through the years , Jack discovered that he did not like the direction they were going. He loved Ennis, no doubt, but Ennis was'nt leading them  down the road toward a permanent solution to this thing. Jack was seeking some kind of resolution to the problem. Ennis was not. They were out of sinct in the worst way imo opinion. Someone was not holding up their end of this unspoken bargain. Jack felt it all slipping slowing away from him.

I agree with WW that Jack eventually got to a point where he did'nt care what Ennis thought of his infedlities(" hell yeah I been to Mexico. Is that a f-ckin problem?) . In other words Jack was questioning Ennis's concern by asserting his own right to seek comfort elsewhere. (" Oh yeah?  Do you really f***-in care?") He was daring Ennis and Ennis did'nt like it one bit. As far as Ennis was concerned, Jack belonged to him alone. Was demanding Jack to be faithful under these very trying circumstances.,

But as you said MG, Jack was not Ennis. Ennis was content with his life in Riverton, whereas Jack was more "out there" in the world. He saw a much bigger picture than Ennis .  So what Ennis did'nt know, did'nt hurt him, but he knew he was hurting inside himself in spite of it.

There were  reasons  why Jack felt he had to do it  and all them things Ennis did'nt know("the rest" ) were subs  to what the real desires were, And that was Ennis  getting past some of his fears and commiting to a living arrangment with him. Tried to get Ennis to see that with this arrangement,  "the rest"  would be unessessary,

 Randall was the next best thing to being where he wanted to be at this point in his life.  Ennis should have gotten a grip,  but Randall was in the picture already. Jack  never brought up Randall to Ennis,  lied about the nature of their freindship.  Perhaps aside from Ennis, he meant more than all the others .   MO.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #175 on: Aug 04, 2007, 01:46 PM »
Jack at the point of Randall proposition was having a battle in his mind between his love and,then,loyalty to Ennis and his need to have a life of his own.He knew that,as welshwitch say,this new relationship wouldn´t be like a pure sexual relief as with the Mexican hustlers;he needed to "make" something with his life,something that moved him away from his frustration,something that aloows him to live more in accordance with his inner self.I´ve never believed that Jack was quitting Ennis,but at that point he has already given up all his wild dreams and the possibility that one day Ennis shared them.For me,it´s not a question of loving or not,but a question of LIVING.Jack never stopped loving Ennis,never,but he needed to "rebuild" his life;however,sometimes I´ve wondered if to be with Randall was a way to force Ennis to have a decision soon,if he arrived to know it.
« Last Edit: Aug 04, 2007, 02:08 PM by myprivatejack »
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #176 on: Aug 06, 2007, 08:08 AM »
I don't think he doesn't want Ennis to know the rest and to understand all the things about their relationship, but I think he realize that Ennis is not willing to know, and can't deal with all these truths. whether it's the good stuff (like how deeply and totally Jack loves him) or the bad stuff (Jack having sex with other men), Ennis refuses to recognize all that. Saying "all these things I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them", is actually a way to say "I don't wanna hear it and I don't wanna know". So I thought jack meant to say, I hope you know that because of your stubborness and your refusal the only thing we got left now is this mountain, and I hope you know this one truth even if you can't accept all the others... and I don't think he meant this is the end, because after that he said "I wish I knew how to quit you" and by that admitted that he can't quit Ennis, and that this thing will never be over...

 Ennis saying those words tells me he knew or suspected Jack was cheating in some way. Are you saying that Ennis just lied to himself about it? Put it away so as not to beleive it could be true?  He did ask Jack if he'd been to Mexico. Was he not jeaulous? or upset that Jack confirmed his worst fears?

 And was ALL this cheating Ennis's fault or could Jack have such low self-esteem? He had a wife , Lureen, had Ennis, Randall? and possibly LaShawn?( Cringe ) now what's up with all this? Ennis's morality has been recently called into question because of his treatment of Alma. Were they moral men?
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #177 on: Aug 06, 2007, 08:17 AM »
Well, you got a friend here mactwck.  The first time I heard Jack say he couldn't make it in a couple of high-altitude f**ks a year, I burst into laughter in the theater.  I then mentioned it here.  It was not a popular stand.  What about people who have never had it?  What about soldiers who go away from home for a year at a time, or longer. Are they to be unfaithful? Don't think I am condemning Jack for his unfaithfulness but I sure don't understand it.

Having said that, I suppose that when there is no commitment from both parties, there is no reason to be faithful. I may love Jake Gyllenhaal but until he made a commitment to me, why be faithful?



Was there a commitment made? A silent one maybe, but this is due to lack of communication between these two. Nobody is talking. Neither one of them was perfect. Human beings rarely are.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline keren_b

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #178 on: Aug 06, 2007, 02:52 PM »
Ennis saying those words tells me he knew or suspected Jack was cheating in some way. Are you saying that Ennis just lied to himself about it? Put it away so as not to beleive it could be true?  He did ask Jack if he'd been to Mexico. Was he not jeaulous? or upset that Jack confirmed his worst fears?

Oh, Ennis definitely suspected. If he didn't suspect he wouldn't have asked Jack if he'd been to Mexico. But once Jack admitted that and confronted Ennis with the truth, Ennis didn't wanna hear about it. When people suspect that their beloveds are cheating on them they go to great length to find out if their suspicions are true, they even hire private detectives for that! But once they find out they were right, they might fall apart. It is because Ennis was so jealous and upset that he didn't wanna hear about it anymore, he just didn't know how to deal with it. I don't know if you can call it "lied to himself about it", but I think that he repressed that thought because it was too painful, made him too jealous to think of Jack with other men. That's why I thought his reaction meant "I don't wanna know about it because I can't deal with that, and if I have to think about it I might kill you". It only confirms how jealous and possessive Ennis was.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #179 on: Aug 06, 2007, 04:15 PM »
Was Jack blamng Ennis for the cheating ? As Ennis threatened to kill him, Jack was shaking his head no. Was he blaming Ennis that Ennis had the nerve to be livid and jeaulous? I suppose Jack felt he was justified.
Also Ennis spit on the ground next to Jack as he stomped away. Was he spitting on Jack? not literally, but ..well You know, the whole idea that Jack was'nt faithful?
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...