Author Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"  (Read 149022 times)

manhattangirl

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #180 on: Aug 07, 2007, 07:17 AM »
When Ennis tells Jack of the change of plans, he was nervously bitting his finger nails, he had to know how Jack was going react.  But what he didn't count on was Jack admission of unfaithfulness to him.   

Ennis could have kill Jack on the spot, but he didn't, he spit out the finger nail he was chewing on and walk away. 

Jack wasn't done, he look at Ennis listened to his threats shook his head, then let him have it.  No Jack wasn't going to back down. 

How dense was Ennis, Jack confess the night before how much he missed him.  Then the very next morning a change in plans.  What in the world Ennis was thinking, how did  he think this was going to effect Jack.

Well he got his answer.  Jack was unfaithful, and it was his fault, pure and simple.  Jack need more than what Ennis was willing to give him, and this are the consequences.   Jack was not Ennis.  Jack needed to be with him always, or he'd be with someone else.

Offline freetraveller

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #181 on: Aug 08, 2007, 10:13 AM »
Hello all,
sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I haven't forgotten the good memories from our get-together in London last December!
I find the discussion on this thread very interesting. I agree with most of the views posted here.
I think "the rest" Jack is hinting at is one of those expressions that deep down we know, or we think we know, what they might mean, but somehow they elude our conscious thought, especially as our attention as viewers is  trying to follow the painful argument the two men are sharing in their last meeting together.

I agree with stacp, who said Ennis and Jack have not moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. I've always felt that Ennis, much more than Jack, has been living all those years in his own fantasy world, where the summer spent on BBM represented that ideal he was trying to re-create every time he had a reunion with Jack once or twice a year. As we know, Jack had moved on, he was restless and more adventurous to start with, and never lingered too much on his memories of BBM to keep him going. He wanted a life, a real life, with Ennis, not to relive a fantasy. And I think "the rest" he's alluding to might be referring to Jack's realisation/acceptance he's gay, something he knows Ennis will never face up to and never accept.
Ennis might have suspected Jack was being unfaithful to him, but again he never faced up to the fact that Jack might have wanted much more from their relationship than he was prepared to give.
So many unspoken truths for so many years between them... it's painful to see them bubbling on the surface at their last meeting.

I also think that "the rest" alludes to the amount of unspoken suffering, humiliation and bitter disappointments Jack went through for the past 16 years, that Ennis never allowed himself to see, and that will hit him with a ton of bricks when he will finally discover the shirts hidden in the closet.

In the film the viewer knows more about what Jack went through because his character has been fleshed out more in the film than it was in the short story.
In the story, most of the events are told/seen from Ennis' POV and both Ennis and the reader are hit by the force of Jack's feelings only at the end of the short story, with the 'dozy embrace' (told from Jack's POV) and obviously the discovery of the shirts.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #182 on: Aug 08, 2007, 10:28 AM »
Hello all,
sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I haven't forgotten the good memories from our get-together in London last December!
I find the discussion on this thread very interesting. I agree with most of the views posted here.
I think "the rest" Jack is hinting at is one of those expressions that deep down we know, or we think we know, what they might mean, but somehow they elude our conscious thought, especially as our attention as viewers is  trying to follow the painful argument the two men are sharing in their last meeting together.

I agree with stacp, who said Ennis and Jack have not moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. I've always felt that Ennis, much more than Jack, has been living all those years in his own fantasy world, where the summer spent on BBM represented that ideal he was trying to re-create every time he had a reunion with Jack once or twice a year. As we know, Jack had moved on, he was restless and more adventurous to start with, and never lingered too much on his memories of BBM to keep him going. He wanted a life, a real life, with Ennis, not to relive a fantasy. And I think "the rest" he's alluding to might be referring to Jack's realisation/acceptance he's gay, something he knows Ennis will never face up to and never accept.
Ennis might have suspected Jack was being unfaithful to him, but again he never faced up to the fact that Jack might have wanted much more from their relationship than he was prepared to give.
So many unspoken truths for so many years between them... it's painful to see them bubbling on the surface at their last meeting.

I also think that "the rest" alludes to the amount of unspoken suffering, humiliation and bitter disappointments Jack went through for the past 16 years, that Ennis never allowed himself to see, and that will hit him with a ton of bricks when he will finally discover the shirts hidden in the closet.

In the film the viewer knows more about what Jack went through because his character has been fleshed out more in the film than it was in the short story.
In the story, most of the events are told/seen from Ennis' POV and both Ennis and the reader are hit by the force of Jack's feelings only at the end of the short story, with the 'dozy embrace' (told from Jack's POV) and obviously the discovery of the shirts.


Wonderful point of view.  Most especially the pasaage in boldface.  And it makes sense with what Jack said before this: about BBM being all that they got and that Ennis should at least know that, even if he would never know all the rest that he had in his heart for Ennis.

Offline freetraveller

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #183 on: Aug 08, 2007, 11:29 AM »
Wonderful point of view.  Most especially the pasaage in boldface.  And it makes sense with what Jack said before this: about BBM being all that they got and that Ennis should at least know that, even if he would never know all the rest that he had in his heart for Ennis.

Thank you, tpe.
It's amazing how many subtleties we can still find out after so many months since the film came out.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #184 on: Aug 09, 2007, 08:29 AM »
Thank you, tpe.
It's amazing how many subtleties we can still find out after so many months since the film came out.

Yes, so many subtleties.  "...If you don't never know the rest" is just one example of how ambiguity is used to add power and (in Gyllenhaal's terminology) and an "unresolved cadence" into the story.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #185 on: Aug 09, 2007, 12:20 PM »
Yes, and in a way this "unresolved cadence" empowers us  viewers to fill in those blanks here at ennisjack.com. We are enlightened to new interpretations of the facts through these threads everyday. This knowledge is power.
Thanks  to the outstanding talents of Jake,G, Heath L,  Anne H, Michelle W. Ang Lee  and everyone else involved ,for this brilliant work of art!.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline freetraveller

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #186 on: Aug 10, 2007, 12:27 PM »
Exactly, ainfoolin.
I was reminded of what Heath said in an interview, about the first time he read the screenplay, well before he signed up to do the movie. He said something about the fact the reader was being immediately drawn into it, without "being spoonfed".

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #187 on: Aug 10, 2007, 07:12 PM »
At the risk of being OT, personally I never heard of Brokeback Mountain until all the talk surrounding the film at the Academy Awards that year, but I was curious about what all the noise was about it. Needless to say, I was blown away by the film when I bought the dvd. I knew who was Ledger was but not Gyllanhaal. Fortunately my daughter filled me in on this extraordinary actor. ( Mom, you don't know?!!!) I've been hooked ever since....{ small side note}....Ledger's role in Brother's Grimm , ( his character's name being "Jake" and speaking of "magic beans" seemed ironic to me. Far out film.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, this whole confrontation scene is one of the most powerful scenes in film history, Perhaps becuse there are so many interpretations to be found here, not to mention the excellent acting.   What was Ennis thinking getting in Jack's face about Mexico in a jeaulous rage?  Yes, Jack had told him the night before, these affairs meant nothing saying, " truth is, I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." Truth" meaning above all "the rest" what ever form that might take. "I want you" "no matter who I've had  and where, they were only substitutes for you"  "It is you and only you  that I really want" period.

 I agree Jack was not him, and he needed much more than Ennis was giving. Though he cheated, I found it justified at this point. Ennis was reliving those months on Brokeback , never stepping out of bounds to the next level. Jack was ready to move on in more ways than one.  He knew Ennis would not act favortably to "the rest" but at this point I don't really think he cared. From Ennis' point of view, thinking or suspecting Jack of cheating is one thing, hearing it confirmed is quite another.
Jack was already trying to quit Ennis, though Ennis did not know this at the time. He was once again  still trying to give Ennis a clue how much he needed him.

 If he was going to give up his dream, he was going to make sure Ennis knew why. This was one challenge Ennis could not excuse or rationalize away. Game over . Jack had played long enough. Can't blame him after all this time. Just a thought.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #188 on: Aug 10, 2007, 09:02 PM »
If he was going to give up his dream, he was going to make sure Ennis knew why. This was one challenge Ennis could not excuse or rationalize away. Game over . Jack had played long enough. Can't blame him after all this time. Just a thought.

Great post aintfoolin and this is a wonderful thread. I wish I had seen it sooner. "All the rest". I had never thought about that.  :s)
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #189 on: Aug 10, 2007, 09:16 PM »
Great post aintfoolin. I agree about the power of this scene- this is where you just feel the complete weight of 20 years come crashing down.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

manhattangirl

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #190 on: Aug 10, 2007, 10:29 PM »
The Final Confrontation and The Dozy Embrace, these two scenes back to back I find so disturbing.  

Jack's almost admission of being unfaithful, and Ennis jealous rage, threats of killing Jack. Jack dissatisfaction with the way the their relationship was going, Ennis' feeling of worthlessness, and loss, what did he really have to offer Jack, culminating with his breakdown in Jack's arms.   

Then we're ask to witness Jack's memory of what all this pain was about, and why it hurt so much,the dozy embrace scene.

Ennis walks up to Jack,  look at the expression on Ennis face, confident, no fear, but knowing that the man standing before him was his, and Ennis takes possession wrapping his arms around Jack.  Jack moans and leans against him, Ennis hums a lullaby and rocks his lover gently.  And with tenderness in a voice and tone we never heard before when Ennis spoke, saying "I've got to go, see you in the morning", something that needn't be said, of course  he'll see him in the morning,  but said in a way like a promise.

We see in one scene what fear, lack of trust, anger, blame, hurt, misunderstanding can do then in the next scene see such a deep level of understanding, of joy, and peace and a deep love, that it rips your heart out.  
 
We see the disconnect in each man's view of the other, but have to remember they did love each other deeply, and wanted to hold on.  The way to hold on is problem.    

 
« Last Edit: Aug 11, 2007, 07:28 AM by manhattangirl »

Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #191 on: Aug 11, 2007, 10:56 PM »
This  is the thread of my very first post here on ennisjack. com, and i am just as fascinated now by this story as then .Thanks to all of you here I am truly enlightened to much .
...
Ennis never heard of Randall until after Jack's death.  Mr. Twist said " some ranch neighbor", not his wife. The idea that Jack's parents knew about Randall and Ennis did'nt says to him that Jack was more far gone in his frustration over the whole thing than Ennis ever realized. Jack was already letting go of his sweet life dream with Ennis. It was hard on both of them. I wonder at times had had Jack revealed Randall's existence during this confrontation. What would Ennis's reaction be then? Could Randall have been a catylist? Loosing Jack to another man?  A real live threat to his relationship with Jack.
...
Some say that Randall's significance is nil, but I respectfully disagree, He was a big part of "the rest". MO

Most interesting, aintfoolin.  If Jack had told Ennis about Randall, I do believe that may have been the catalyst for Ennis.  He was willing to live with Jack messing around, but not being with someone in a more meaningful relationship.  Why didn't Jack tell him about Randall, I wonder.  He just kept hoping, every time he and Ennis met, that that would be the time Ennis would finally say okay, I am ready for that sweet life with you...

kathy
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #192 on: Aug 11, 2007, 11:06 PM »
Interesting question, Kathy. IMO it was "okay" to see other women- no breach of the "rules", so to speak. I agree that if Jack had told Ennis about Randall it would have been a catalyst but I think Jack was afraid that that could spell the end. I think that Ennis was content in thinking that they were only "queer" with each other- that "this thing" was just something they did.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #193 on: Aug 11, 2007, 11:22 PM »
Great post aintfoolin. I agree about the power of this scene- this is where you just feel the complete weight of 20 years come crashing down.

These last pages of this thread are giving me PBS bad.  This scene juxtaposed with the DE, show just what you said.  Breaks my heart...

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #194 on: Aug 12, 2007, 12:21 AM »
These last pages of this thread are giving me PBS bad.  This scene juxtaposed with the DE, show just what you said.  Breaks my heart...

kathy

None of us, be we gay or str8 can ever feel the emotion these two men had to go through. That is the power of this story. We live in a time and a world so removed from what their's was. I grew up in the 60's but lived in an environment that was ready to move on, reluctantly to be sure, but at least it moved. Jack and Ennis had no idea the world would change and so were forced to believe that what they had, the love they had, would always be rejected. For some it is still the same.  :\'(
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

manhattangirl

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #195 on: Aug 12, 2007, 09:27 AM »
None of us, be we gay or str8 can ever feel the emotion these two men had to go through. That is the power of this story. We live in a time and a world so removed from what their's was. I grew up in the 60's but lived in an environment that was ready to move on, reluctantly to be sure, but at least it moved. Jack and Ennis had no idea the world would change and so were forced to believe that what they had, the love they had, would always be rejected. For some it is still the same.  :\'(

I also grew up during the 60's, you couldn't help but feel the changes that were going on and I was a child.  I was only 13 in 1968, and saw in my own neighborhood those changes, and some of what I witness will stay with me. 

It hard for us to understand the intensity of feeling these two men had for each other and protectiveness they felt towards each other, and say with ease "the times are achangin'" .  Their love last from '63 to '83 but they were still 19 years old, still in the first  summer of those Brokeback days.   The fear never changed, was never set aside, or looked at, never stared down, but harbored, kept , and was put at the head of their table.

If they only knew.   

Offline keren_b

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #196 on: Aug 12, 2007, 10:43 AM »
But Jack could find the power inside him to overcome those fears. He was really willing to take that chance, that risk, and make a life with Ennis despite the fears, while Ennis remained a prisoner of his fears his whole life. Why is that? was Jack more brave, or more desperate? more optimistic, a dreamer? or naive, as Ennis would probably think? Jack had crossed some barrier that Ennis could never get over, Ennis's fears had killed their chances of a future together long before the tire irons did.
The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #197 on: Aug 12, 2007, 11:18 AM »
But Jack could find the power inside him to overcome those fears. He was really willing to take that chance, that risk, and make a life with Ennis despite the fears, while Ennis remained a prisoner of his fears his whole life. Why is that? was Jack more brave, or more desperate? more optimistic, a dreamer? or naive, as Ennis would probably think? Jack had crossed some barrier that Ennis could never get over, Ennis's fears had killed their chances of a future together long before the tire irons did.

You're right.  My only problem with Jack is that he let it go on for so long.  Remember when Ennis related the story of Earl and Rich, and Jack asked him, "you seen this",  Jack should have know then that he was dealing with a guy who is pretty screwed up.  Some may say, "well Jack wasn't sophisticated enough to know what was eating at Ennis?"  but I think even asking that question, he was getting deeper into Ennis than most people got.  He always could, and that fact alone is heartbreaking,  the unknown influence he had on Ennis.  He didn't recognized how much Ennis depended on him, and how much he had the  power to get Ennis to a point where not even Earl and Rich could hurt him anymore.  But he was so afraid to scare Ennis away from him.  Funny how fear in different ways plays part in their story. 


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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #198 on: Aug 12, 2007, 01:35 PM »
But Jack could find the power inside him to overcome those fears. He was really willing to take that chance, that risk, and make a life with Ennis despite the fears, while Ennis remained a prisoner of his fears his whole life. Why is that? was Jack more brave, or more desperate? more optimistic, a dreamer? or naive, as Ennis would probably think? Jack had crossed some barrier that Ennis could never get over, Ennis's fears had killed their chances of a future together long before the tire irons did.

I feel that Jack had *been around* more, He had seen, perhaps while on the rodeo circuit a more open view of society. Learned bigger lessons already.  Maybe he'd seen people with  what he considered worst problems than this or maybe the same problem as this, who knows? Perhaps he had a more restsored faith in society, especially after he married Lureen and all the social obligations entailed in that adventure.  After growing up isolated, and rejected perhaps Jack saw a bigger picture of the world and thought in terms of this. He saw more than  the close-minded , isolated small towns of Wyoming. Ennis never ventured from the handle of the coffee pot.Makes a difference.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #199 on: Aug 12, 2007, 02:24 PM »
Interesting question, Kathy. IMO it was "okay" to see other women- no breach of the "rules", so to speak. I agree that if Jack had told Ennis about Randall it would have been a catalyst but I think Jack was afraid that that could spell the end. I think that Ennis was content in thinking that they were only "queer" with each other- that "this thing" was just something they did.

Women posed no direct threat to the aspects of the relationship. They were *in* , whereas other men were out.  There is the saftey factor as well as the discretion elements.There is  also the possibility of Randall taking Jack away somewhere where he and Jack could have no contact ever again. The thought of this alone and the finality of it I feel could spark Ennis into a compromise at least. Alot would depend on how Jack could finesse the wording of an ultimatum but he's good at that sort of thing with Ennis.

Sometimes I feel that Jack underestimated how much Ennis needed him , in some ways more than Jack needed him. Jack has accepted who he is, Ennis is still struggling yet he knew that this relationship completed him. He kept his secrets inside, though he needed the constant reassurence the Jack loved, wanted, and needed him as much as he needed Jack.  but knowledge of Randall during this confrontation imo would effect Ennis deeply in one way or another. Ennis never spoke it ( his need for Jack) outright, but it was felt and shown.

 Jack had his fears also. To him , this could have gone either way for em. It could spook Ennis away, on one hand, but on the other hand it could've  givin Ennis the wake up call he needed. Jack's fear of loosing Ennis caused him to settle on the side of caution. He did'nt admit to Randall's existence.
But after all was said and done during this confrontation, with Jack's stinging words ringing in his ears, and with  what he now knows some of "the rest", STILL, he wants to see Jack again. I don't know what would have been settled or transpired at Pine Creek, but this fact shows the need Ennis had for Jack and the strength and depth of his love for him. Hopefully, Jack knew this before he died.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #200 on: Aug 12, 2007, 10:26 PM »
     He's referring to the fact that Ennis only wants to confine his love to the mountain mettings Brokeback and the others as well rather than having the rich and full life they could have had together. Jack was trying to make him see that he loved him to the very core of his being, and if it was necessary to let him go to make him realize this he would make the sacrifice.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #201 on: Aug 13, 2007, 07:53 AM »
Most interesting, aintfoolin.  If Jack had told Ennis about Randall, I do believe that may have been the catalyst for Ennis.  He was willing to live with Jack messing around, but not being with someone in a more meaningful relationship.  Why didn't Jack tell him about Randall, I wonder.  He just kept hoping, every time he and Ennis met, that that would be the time Ennis would finally say okay, I am ready for that sweet life with you...

kathy

Jack did sort of told him -- in an oblique way, I admit.   The fact that he follows the oblique confession with the heart-rending  "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" looks to me that he was desperately crying out to Ennis.  It was so sad.  I guess a part of Jack tried to make Ennis see the rest, but I think it may have been a fear of hurting Ennis (and himself, btw) that made him couch it in a language seemingly opaque and roundabout...

 

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #202 on: Aug 13, 2007, 07:56 AM »
I feel that Jack had *been around* more, He had seen, perhaps while on the rodeo circuit a more open view of society. Learned bigger lessons already.  Maybe he'd seen people with  what he considered worst problems than this or maybe the same problem as this, who knows? Perhaps he had a more restsored faith in society, especially after he married Lureen and all the social obligations entailed in that adventure.  After growing up isolated, and rejected perhaps Jack saw a bigger picture of the world and thought in terms of this. He saw more than  the close-minded , isolated small towns of Wyoming. Ennis never ventured from the handle of the coffee pot.Makes a difference.

Indeed it does.  Could this be part of it all when Jack said "...If you don't never know the rest"?


Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #203 on: Aug 13, 2007, 08:00 AM »
     He's referring to the fact that Ennis only wants to confine his love to the mountain mettings Brokeback and the others as well rather than having the rich and full life they could have had together. Jack was trying to make him see that he loved him to the very core of his being, and if it was necessary to let him go to make him realize this he would make the sacrifice.

Yes, that there was so much unsaid -- and unseakable, I guess.  Jack was I think struggling with coming to grips with his own desire to live a full life with someone he loved.   The "rest" was perhaps up to Ennis.


Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #204 on: Aug 13, 2007, 10:53 PM »
Jack did sort of told him -- in an oblique way, I admit.   The fact that he follows the oblique confession with the heart-rending  "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" looks to me that he was desperately crying out to Ennis.  It was so sad.  I guess a part of Jack tried to make Ennis see the rest, but I think it may have been a fear of hurting Ennis (and himself, btw) that made him couch it in a language seemingly opaque and roundabout...

This just breaks my heart.  I believe we the viewers can just almost see what is in Jack's mind during those moments, but as you said, he is not saying things outright.  Ennis maybe doesn't know how to express his feelings well in words, but Jack has his fears and doesn't say his feelings, either; he sometimes must feel he has to walk on eggshells with Ennis.  That is so sad...

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

manhattangirl

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #205 on: Aug 14, 2007, 05:35 AM »
Isn't this the classic argument between lovers, "not enough time", "I gotta work".     But this magnified a hundred times because these lovers see each other only a couple of times a year. 

So the fight between them was on.  Years were going by quicker for them.  Middle age  now, it wasn't like they were nineteen years old, and look down from the mountain like the world was theirs and no one could touch them.  Their world was getting smaller, and time is passing them by. 

And if Ennis didn't know the rest he knew this, "he didn't want a life with Jack", and Jack knew it and Jack let him know he knew it.   So Ennis wants to kill him because of the lovers Jack may have had.  This was too much to ask in Jack's way of thinking. 


Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #206 on: Aug 14, 2007, 07:26 AM »
This just breaks my heart.  I believe we the viewers can just almost see what is in Jack's mind during those moments, but as you said, he is not saying things outright.  Ennis maybe doesn't know how to express his feelings well in words, but Jack has his fears and doesn't say his feelings, either; he sometimes must feel he has to walk on eggshells with Ennis.  That is so sad...

kathy

So much about their relationship was oblique and unspoken, no?  And Ennis's state of mind certainly didn't make matter easier, as you said.  It must have been torture for Jack to tread ever so lightly and yet get the point across.  "Walking on egshells" (or, perhaps, "dancing")  is an apt description.



Offline tpe

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #207 on: Aug 14, 2007, 07:28 AM »
Isn't this the classic argument between lovers, "not enough time", "I gotta work".     But this magnified a hundred times because these lovers see each other only a couple of times a year. 

So the fight between them was on.  Years were going by quicker for them.  Middle age  now, it wasn't like they were nineteen years old, and look down from the mountain like the world was theirs and no one could touch them.  Their world was getting smaller, and time is passing them by. 

And if Ennis didn't know the rest he knew this, "he didn't want a life with Jack", and Jack knew it and Jack let him know he knew it.   So Ennis wants to kill him because of the lovers Jack may have had.  This was too much to ask in Jack's way of thinking. 



This is harsh, but I fear that there is a great deal of truth to what you say here, MG. 


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #208 on: Aug 14, 2007, 03:32 PM »
Isn't this the classic argument between lovers, "not enough time", "I gotta work".     But this magnified a hundred times because these lovers see each other only a couple of times a year. 

So the fight between them was on.  Years were going by quicker for them.  Middle age  now, it wasn't like they were nineteen years old, and look down from the mountain like the world was theirs and no one could touch them.  Their world was getting smaller, and time is passing them by. 

And if Ennis didn't know the rest he knew this, "he didn't want a life with Jack", and Jack knew it and Jack let him know he knew it.   So Ennis wants to kill him because of the lovers Jack may have had.  This was too much to ask in Jack's way of thinking. 



MG, I certainly share your passion concerning this, but I must respectfully disagree that Ennis did'nt want a life with Jack. he wanted Jack in his life but could'nt bring himself to live with him. Ennis can in a sense be described as a walking contradiction. He is in denial about his sexuality,  and everything is built on that to use Jack's wording,yet he happily meets Jack like clockwork  for many years. We must ask what each one was personally getting out of this relationship?
 How and where they meet goes to Ennis's state of fear of discovery.
 I think at some point, during this confrontation, the conversation becomes divided, What I mean by this is that about the time Ennis reveals the change in plans, Jack slams the truck door and says: " You've had a week to say a little somethin about this" , and imo opinion, Jack was feeling Ennis had somehow manipulated the timing of the revelation. Jack's only hope and  solace being he would see Ennis in Aug, sooner than later and suddenly his hope for this was snatched away.
 Ennis had seen this frustrated angry mood from Jack before, only this time it was'nt Aguirre's rules that had Jack going, it was directed at him. At this point Jack was dealing with the *big picture" of what was happening as Ennis continued to speak in terms of this one narrowed down incident. Tried to make some sense out out all of it. As Ennis tried to calm Jack pleading with him to "lighten up" on him and promises of future outings at Don Wroe's cabin etc,  the camera angle at this juncture shows Jack was dealing with the cumulative effect of Ennis's refusals, saying " there's never enough time, never enough".
...
 Then , Ennis goes on to reveal that he had struck a deal of some kind with his employer to get away this time and it was'nt easy doing so ...but he did it anyway. This shows that Ennis WANTED Jack in his life and really needed him there, but getting away to see him was becoming difficult. " In the beginning I just quit the job."  I" I can't quit this one." 
Jack was not in the best of moods here to begin with, having to part with Ennis after their week together. " Why are we always in the friggin cold "? means why do we always have to be as if were still on Brokeback as Ennis was indeed in a sense, as if a change in location would snap Ennis out of his  fear and denial. Jack's patience had worn thin.
 Lays all  his frustrations out to Ennis.  In other words . He was tired of pulling this load seemimgly alone.
 When Ennis finally breaks down and says he can't take the pressure  anymore, Jack comforts him still as Ennis desperatly tries to hold on to the one person he cannot live without.  Though complicated and outwardly contradictary, at times ,Jack sees through to Ennis's heart and finds despite everything ,he still owns it, but for both their sakes he must let go. 
In the DE Ennis rides away with a promise to "see Jack in the morning" In present no such promise is made as again ,Ennis rides away. Tragic. MO
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline liketheyallknow

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Re: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"
« Reply #209 on: Aug 14, 2007, 06:00 PM »
MG, I certainly share your passion concerning this, but I must respectfully disagree that Ennis did'nt want a life with Jack. he wanted Jack in his life but could'nt bring himself to live with him. Ennis can in a sense be described as a walking contradiction. He is in denial about his sexuality,  and everything is built on that to use Jack's wording,yet he happily meets Jack like clockwork  for many years. We must ask what each one was personally getting out of this relationship?
 How and where they meet goes to Ennis's state of fear of discovery.
 I think at some point, during this confrontation, the conversation becomes divided, What I mean by this is that about the time Ennis reveals the change in plans, Jack slams the truck door and says: " You've had a week to say a little somethin about this" , and imo opinion, Jack was feeling Ennis had somehow manipulated the timing of the revelation. Jack's only hope and  solace being he would see Ennis in Aug, sooner than later and suddenly his hope for this was snatched away.
 Ennis had seen this frustrated angry mood from Jack before, only this time it was'nt Aguirre's rules that had Jack going, it was directed at him. At this point Jack was dealing with the *big picture" of what was happening as Ennis continued to speak in terms of this one narrowed down incident. Tried to make some sense out out all of it. As Ennis tried to calm Jack pleading with him to "lighten up" on him and promises of future outings at Don Wroe's cabin etc,  the camera angle at this juncture shows Jack was dealing with the cumulative effect of Ennis's refusals, saying " there's never enough time, never enough".
...
 Then , Ennis goes on to reveal that he had struck a deal of some kind with his employer to get away this time and it was'nt easy doing so ...but he did it anyway. This shows that Ennis WANTED Jack in his life and really needed him there, but getting away to see him was becoming difficult. " In the beginning I just quit the job."  I" I can't quit this one." 
Jack was not in the best of moods here to begin with, having to part with Ennis after their week together. " Why are we always in the friggin cold "? means why do we always have to be as if were still on Brokeback as Ennis was indeed in a sense, as if a change in location would snap Ennis out of his  fear and denial. Jack's patience had worn thin.
 Lays all  his frustrations out to Ennis.  In other words . He was tired of pulling this load seemimgly alone.
 When Ennis finally breaks down and says he can't take the pressure  anymore, Jack comforts him still as Ennis desperatly tries to hold on to the one person he cannot live without.  Though complicated and outwardly contradictary, at times ,Jack sees through to Ennis's heart and finds despite everything ,he still owns it, but for both their sakes he must let go. 
In the DE Ennis rides away with a promise to "see Jack in the morning" In present no such promise is made as again ,Ennis rides away. Tragic. MO

Hi, I agree with this point, aintfoolin (and pretty much the  rest too!) . Ennis is doing the best he can from his narrow perspective to have a relationship with Jack. Jack pressures him about August, and when Ennis says 'I can't quit this one' (referring to his job) he is really straight faced, and firm - he is not changing his mind. This line is Ennis explaining 'the rest' to Jack. Jack can't really argue because he knows Ennis needs his job to pay child support.  Either of them could have legitimately said ' If you don't never know the rest' - they both had pain, longings, fears that they never fully shared with each other - their own private nightmare which was only lifted when they met. One big part of the rest that I think Jack overlooked (or possibly underestimated) was the pain that the divorce caused Ennis - mainly in terms of separating him from his children.