Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"

[manhattangirl]

Hi Aintfoolin,

Great post I've been reading  and rereading it gives me a lot to think about.  My only question is the "life" aspect of it.  Ennis always had Jack in his life, but not a life with Jack.  Isn't there a difference?  Isn't the tug-a-war with both men is concerning exactly that point.

Jack's frustration, his need was more than just being with Ennis a few times a years, and whether Ennis wanted it deep down inside is something Jack was unaware of.  All he saw, all he felt was Ennis drifting away. He can see the Pope easier than it was to see Ennis.  In other words, "why are you making it so hard for me". 

Jack put in his time with Ennis, almost twenty years, he played by Ennis's rules, he did as he was ask, and its getting him no closer to Ennis. 

We forget sometimes of  how all this effects Jack.  We can understand Ennis's POV, but what about Jack's.  Lets go back to the morning after Jack's confession of how much he missed Ennis and how difficult it was for him.   In the morning when they  were to say good bye,  Jack was in foul mood to begin with, leaving Ennis was getting to be more difficult for him.  Ennis knew the kind of mood Jack was that morning and reason passing understanding why he chose that moment to tell Jack the change in plans is up for discussion.

You can tell Ennis was nervous, biting his fingers nails, the cautious look he gave to Jack.  He knew how Jack would react.  Ennis mistake was he thinking logically and Jack at that point was running on pure emotions, and when your lover feels slighted, or being taken for granted, watch out, they will tell you things you never knew, or if you did know you were hearing it in words.

When Ennis pleads to Jack to lighten up on him as if he was alone is this relationship, and Jack should understand.  Well if anyone who's ever been in relationship where your lover said "hey look, give me a break" is really asking for it with both barrels.  And Jack doesn't disappoint, he let Ennis have it. 

You see Jack was speaking of something higher than just the work a day world of Ennis Del Mar.  He wanted to know where he stood, who he was to him, and the fact quiting him was something he actually wished for. This pushed Ennis to his breakdown, and broke him down to him being more honest with Jack than ever before, the reins were slipping, and he needed Jack's understanding. This a twenty year love affair and the cracks were showing.

IMO:   Jack gets lost in translation sometimes, when all he does is love Ennis, and always did.
 



   



 

[aintfoolin]

Hi Aintfoolin,

Great post I've been reading  and rereading it gives me a lot to think about.  My only question is the "life" aspect of it.  Ennis always had Jack in his life, but not a life with Jack.  Isn't there a difference?  Isn't the tug-a-war with both men is concerning exactly that point.

Jack's frustration, his need was more than just being with Ennis a few times a years, and whether Ennis wanted it deep down inside is something Jack was unaware of.  All he saw, all he felt was Ennis drifting away. He can see the Pope easier than it was to see Ennis.  In other words, "why are you making it so hard for me". 

Jack put in his time with Ennis, almost twenty years, he played by Ennis's rules, he did as he was ask, and its getting him no closer to Ennis. 

We forget sometimes of  how all this effects Jack.  We can understand Ennis's POV, but what about Jack's.  Lets go back to the morning after Jack's confession of how much he missed Ennis and how difficult it was for him.   In the morning when they  were to say good bye,  Jack was in foul mood to begin with, leaving Ennis was getting to be more difficult for him.  Ennis knew the kind of mood Jack was that morning and reason passing understanding why he chose that moment to tell Jack the change in plans is up for discussion.

You can tell Ennis was nervous, biting his fingers nails, the cautious look he gave to Jack.  He knew how Jack would react.  Ennis mistake was he thinking logically and Jack at that point was running on pure emotions, and when your lover feels slighted, or being taken for granted, watch out, they will tell you things you never knew, or if you did know you were hearing it in words.

When Ennis pleads to Jack to lighten up on him as if he was alone is this relationship, and Jack should understand.  Well if anyone who's ever been in relationship where your lover said "hey look, give me a break" is really asking for it with both barrels.  And Jack doesn't disappoint, he let Ennis have it. 

You see Jack was speaking of something higher than just the work a day world of Ennis Del Mar.  He wanted to know where he stood, who he was to him, and the fact quiting him was something he actually wished for. This pushed Ennis to his breakdown, and broke him down to him being more honest with Jack than ever before, the reins were slipping, and he needed Jack's understanding. This a twenty year love affair and the cracks were showing.

IMO:   Jack gets lost in translation sometimes, when all he does is love Ennis, and always did.
 



   



 

MG, I've wondered often if Jack could have explored more of his options, such as moving within closer proximity to Ennis. Maybe not right next door but within an area close enough that he could see Ennis whenever he wanted. Part of the problem imo is the long distance between them. This would allow him to work on Ennis gradually and get what he wanted out of him eventually.
 Maybe it would'nt be the sweet life on the ranch that Jack wanted , but as Randall handled  this advantage  discreetly, of living closer to Jack, so could Ennis have it.

 Ennis must be constantly coaxed and prompted by Jack to take such a big step of actually co-habitating. Living closer would narrow Ennis's option of saying no imo.  Ennis was'nt going anywhere and a constant barrage of Jack on his doorstep? What could Ennis do except accept it. He cannot stop Jack from living whereever he wanted right?I think having Jack near would grow on Ennis and eventually cause him to accept seeing Jack every weekend or more often if it pleases him, leading up to something more permanent perhaps. It's a compromise I know but at least Jack would'nt have to live this nightmare of frustrated wishing , hoping and assuming.  Ennis wanted Jack in his life. Perhaps this scenario would go a long way in convincing Ennis of how much Jack wanted him in his.Just a thought.

[manhattangirl]

MG, I've wondered often if Jack could have explored more of his options, such as moving within closer proximity to Ennis. Maybe not right next door but within an area close enough that he could see Ennis whenever he wanted. Part of the problem imo is the long distance between them. This would allow him to work on Ennis gradually and get what he wanted out of him eventually.
 Maybe it would'nt be the sweet life on the ranch that Jack wanted , but as Randall handled  this advantage  discreetly, of living closer to Jack, so could Ennis have it.

 Ennis must be constantly coaxed and prompted by Jack to take such a big step of actually co-habitating. Living closer would narrow Ennis's option of saying no imo.  Ennis was'nt going anywhere and a constant barrage of Jack on his doorstep? What could Ennis do except accept it. He cannot stop Jack from living whereever he wanted right?I think having Jack near would grow on Ennis and eventually cause him to accept seeing Jack every weekend or more often if it pleases him, leading up to something more permanent perhaps. It's a compromise I know but at least Jack would'nt have to live this nightmare of frustrated wishing , hoping and assuming.  Ennis wanted Jack in his life. Perhaps this scenario would go a long way in convincing Ennis of how much Jack wanted him in his.Just a thought.

Remember that night before the final confrontation?  Ennis asked Jack about his marriage, Jack said "Lureen was good at making the hard deals, but as far as our marriage was concern you can phone it in".   

Here both men sit, in love with each other, broken marriages, and not a thought of finally living together, but continue to speak of  women, Ennis speaking of Cassie and Jack fooling around with La Shawn, as if  being with a woman, any woman is a solution to the state of their lives.  Denying deep down inside it wasn't the woman, but themselves, and their love for each other that led to where they were.

I wonder too that why doesn't Jack just pick and leave Texas, live closer to Ennis if not live with him, but be nearer to him. One thing Jack never did was force Ennis's hand, moving closer to him would have done just that force his hand, and Jack wanted Ennis to accept the idea of a life together fully, openly, wantingly, like they accepted each other SNIT.

Just my thoughts.   

 

 

[BBBOY]

I think that Jack understood that Ennis would never come to terms with their relationship, no matter where he lived. It was the thing that was tearing him apart, even after all the years and the empty liasons he had been through. We are looking at an American tragedy here friends, men who can't give vent to their real emotions, no matter how powerful they are.

[ksxks]

MG, I've wondered often if Jack could have explored more of his options, such as moving within closer proximity to Ennis. Maybe not right next door but within an area close enough that he could see Ennis whenever he wanted. Part of the problem imo is the long distance between them. This would allow him to work on Ennis gradually and get what he wanted out of him eventually.
 Maybe it would'nt be the sweet life on the ranch that Jack wanted , but as Randall handled  this advantage  discreetly, of living closer to Jack, so could Ennis have it.

 Ennis must be constantly coaxed and prompted by Jack to take such a big step of actually co-habitating. Living closer would narrow Ennis's option of saying no imo.  Ennis was'nt going anywhere and a constant barrage of Jack on his doorstep? What could Ennis do except accept it. He cannot stop Jack from living whereever he wanted right?I think having Jack near would grow on Ennis and eventually cause him to accept seeing Jack every weekend or more often if it pleases him, leading up to something more permanent perhaps. It's a compromise I know but at least Jack would'nt have to live this nightmare of frustrated wishing , hoping and assuming.  Ennis wanted Jack in his life. Perhaps this scenario would go a long way in convincing Ennis of how much Jack wanted him in his.Just a thought.

And a good thought it is.  (And the premise of many fics.)  As you describe, this would have not only made Jack's life easier, made it easier for him to see Ennis, but I bet you that Enis would have come to see that maybe nobody was paying attention to him, to them, after all.  The paranoia would ease away. 

So...this leads to the whole thing of why Jack didn't divorce and move closer to Ennis.

kathy

[ksxks]

Indeed, BBBoy.  Not only Ennis, on whom it's so easy to put the "blame," but neither was Jack dealing with his feelings, their feelings, in a healthy way.

kathy

[manhattangirl]

I think that Jack understood that Ennis would never come to terms with their relationship, no matter where he lived. It was the thing that was tearing him apart, even after all the years and the empty liasons he had been through. We are looking at an American tragedy here friends, men who can't give vent to their real emotions, no matter how powerful they are.

If Jack just accepted this is how Ennis was, and he would never change, and just move on, he could have had a chance at a life with someone else, if he only believed in self-preservation, and moved on and take a chance at life?

Self-preservation sometimes, many times is the only option, no matter how much you love someone.   If Jack only believed his life was worth it.  Jack had a better shot at living a whole life, than Ennis.  If he only moved on.  IMO

[tpe]

I wonder too that why doesn't Jack just pick and leave Texas, live closer to Ennis if not live with him, but be nearer to him. One thing Jack never did was force Ennis's hand, moving closer to him would have done just that force his hand, and Jack wanted Ennis to accept the idea of a life together fully, openly, wantingly, like they accepted each other SNIT.

Just my thoughts.     

I think the "rest" has a lot to do with this.  If Ennis were to agree to live with Jack, jack would have no problem moving back to WY  --  or any place where Ennis was, I suspect.  But to stay close to the person and not have him the way it was meant to be -- that would have been torture for Jack.  He probably felt that he needed the distance -- he needed "the rest", in order to forget this painful fact.  For example, I suspect that his drinking problem is linked to this -- the desire to forget, the need for some distance. 

[tpe]

I think that Jack understood that Ennis would never come to terms with their relationship, no matter where he lived. It was the thing that was tearing him apart, even after all the years and the empty liasons he had been through. We are looking at an American tragedy here friends, men who can't give vent to their real emotions, no matter how powerful they are.

I think that in the end, this was the case.  When he decided to move back to LF with Randall -- it was partly perhaps with the belief that fulfilling his dream would make the pain finally come to rest.   That is, Ennis's proximity would no longer matter.

[welshwitch]

If they lived nearer, it wouldn't work, IMO. Ennis couldn't compartmentalize it if Jack were anywhere within easy reach, and Jack couldn't bear seeing him in a  casual way - look at how much they evidently want to kiss when the girls are there in the scene after the divorce. There's too much emotion crackling between them; sure, if they were together all the time it would eventually die down, as it would be bound to do, but long before that they'd have given themselves away, which is of course what Ennis is afraid of - look at the way he watches the guy who drives past in the pickup when he and Jack are doing no more than talking.Ennis at least can ONLY live a sham life because Jack is far away - no way he could keep up the act with Jack appearing regularly, or even knowing he could. And Jack would be even more frustrated, I think, if Ennis were within reach but he couldn't behave as he wanted to around him but had to cover up his feelings and watch every word he said.

[ksxks]

I totally can see it this way, WW, but I like to think that with the time's a'changing as they were, that Ennis would see maybe it wasn't as bad as he thought it was...except that's probably wishful thinking, in Wyoming.  This wasn't the 70's and 80's in the big cities, after all.

kathy

[BBBOY]

If they lived nearer, it wouldn't work, IMO. Ennis couldn't compartmentalize it if Jack were anywhere within easy reach, and Jack couldn't bear seeing him in a  casual way - look at how much they evidently want to kiss when the girls are there in the scene after the divorce. There's too much emotion crackling between them; sure, if they were together all the time it would eventually die down, as it would be bound to do, but long before that they'd have given themselves away, which is of course what Ennis is afraid of - look at the way he watches the guy who drives past in the pickup when he and Jack are doing no more than talking.Ennis at least can ONLY live a sham life because Jack is far away - no way he could keep up the act with Jack appearing regularly, or even knowing he could. And Jack would be even more frustrated, I think, if Ennis were within reach but he couldn't behave as he wanted to around him but had to cover up his feelings and watch every word he said.

Well said WW. Perhaps distance is what enabled them to keep the fire going for them.

[LuvJackNasty]

I think the "rest" has a lot to do with this.  If Ennis were to agree to live with Jack, jack would have no problem moving back to WY  --  or any place where Ennis was, I suspect.  But to stay close to the person and not have him the way it was meant to be -- that would have been torture for Jack.  He probably felt that he needed the distance -- he needed "the rest", in order to forget this painful fact.  For example, I suspect that his drinking problem is linked to this -- the desire to forget, the need for some distance. 

That's how I feel, Thomas.  While Jack wasn't happy in Texas, I think he was fine with the situation because he had companionship. I think he just needed to feel like he belonged somewhere and with someone. Ennis being the ultimate someone. I think at his core, Jack was lonely and he didn't pick up and leave his marriage because it was a case of something is better than nothing.

[BBBOY]

That's how I feel, Thomas.  While Jack wasn't happy in Texas, I think he was fine with the situation because he had companionship. I think he just needed to feel like he belonged somewhere and with someone. Ennis being the ultimate someone. I think at his core, Jack was lonely and he didn't pick up and leave his marriage because it was a case of something is better than nothing.

And Ennis, sadly, gave him nothing, until it was too late.

[welshwitch]

I don't know, BBB, maybe Ennis gave Jack all he could manage to give - and when Jack was dead it was evidently easier to feel and express some of his feelings, because he knew he didn't have to act on them. I think the difference between them is that Jack put up with Texas ands Lureen because he kept hoping deep down that Ennis would change; Ennis kept putting up with the status quo because he didn't know how to do anything else and clung desperately to what he had.

[aintfoolin]

 A lot of speculation on my part...but...are you saying that ,had Jack moved closer to Ennis and saw him more often say,  once or twice a week,that Ennis would not ever accept Jack?
 Not saying that this would happen overnight, Ennis would be easily spooked, has a *low startle point*  then maybe Jack should just go home and leave Ennis to himself.  let him stew,rationalize, and what-iff till the cows come home but he'll know Jack is there. think it out for as long as it takes, then see if  Ennis comes to him.
 If Ennis in his vulnerable state decides to see Jack, he would'nt have to go far. No long distance calls, postcards, etc, Jack would be right there. It would be a true test of Ennis's strength in his love for Jack.  I don't believe that Ennis is so resigned  to a life of lonliness,that he will not grow to want Jack around him  Sooner or later Ennis would want to see him. If Jack knew deep inside that Ennis would never learn to live with him, then what's Jack's point of going through what he went through for 20 years.? Ennis is the only one whom Jack would settle down for.
 Jack really thought he could make this happen for them.  He wanted  and needed more time with Ennis to make it happen. It may even be a slow process, but it's makes more sense to me than Jack living  un happy clear down in Texas.
 Again, it is a compromise, but could lead to something better than  what he had.
  Yep, it's a game of chance on Jack's part  of course, and imo chances they had.  after all ...he was the Jack of hearts and he had Ennis's. Worth a shot.  just MHO .

[tpe]

If they lived nearer, it wouldn't work, IMO. Ennis couldn't compartmentalize it if Jack were anywhere within easy reach, and Jack couldn't bear seeing him in a  casual way - look at how much they evidently want to kiss when the girls are there in the scene after the divorce. There's too much emotion crackling between them; sure, if they were together all the time it would eventually die down, as it would be bound to do, but long before that they'd have given themselves away, which is of course what Ennis is afraid of - look at the way he watches the guy who drives past in the pickup when he and Jack are doing no more than talking.Ennis at least can ONLY live a sham life because Jack is far away - no way he could keep up the act with Jack appearing regularly, or even knowing he could. And Jack would be even more frustrated, I think, if Ennis were within reach but he couldn't behave as he wanted to around him but had to cover up his feelings and watch every word he said.

I admit that I feel the same way. Ennis must have been somewhat relieved that Jack did not live in the vicinity.  And not for entirely selfish reasons, I should say: he most certainly feared for their safety if they would have been found out -- and proximity would increase the risks.

That said, "the rest" is also something that Ennis refused to acknowledge, because he probably knew that he couldn't take it.  So, proximity is a two-edged sword.  It would provide easier access to Jack, as well as possible knowledge of "the rest".  But would there have been a "rest" had Jack had Ennis?

[tpe]

I totally can see it this way, WW, but I like to think that with the time's a'changing as they were, that Ennis would see maybe it wasn't as bad as he thought it was...except that's probably wishful thinking, in Wyoming.  This wasn't the 70's and 80's in the big cities, after all.

kathy

Probably.  In many parts of the US, I doubt that things have changed very much -- even today.  There was some substance behind Ennis's paranoia.  He probably felt that Jack was putting himself at risk. 

[tpe]

That's how I feel, Thomas.  While Jack wasn't happy in Texas, I think he was fine with the situation because he had companionship. I think he just needed to feel like he belonged somewhere and with someone. Ennis being the ultimate someone. I think at his core, Jack was lonely and he didn't pick up and leave his marriage because it was a case of something is better than nothing.

I think so too.  "You have no idea how bad it gets..." was a cry from the heart.  It was an attempt to justify himself and rebuke Ennis's jealousy and suspicions, but it revealed much more about Jack's loneliness. 

So sad.

[tpe]

A lot of speculation on my part...but...are you saying that ,had Jack moved closer to Ennis and saw him more often say,  once or twice a week,that Ennis would not ever accept Jack?
 Not saying that this would happen overnight, Ennis would be easily spooked, has a *low startle point*  then maybe Jack should just go home and leave Ennis to himself.  let him stew,rationalize, and what-iff till the cows come home but he'll know Jack is there. think it out for as long as it takes, then see if  Ennis comes to him.
 If Ennis in his vulnerable state decides to see Jack, he would'nt have to go far. No long distance calls, postcards, etc, Jack would be right there. It would be a true test of Ennis's strength in his love for Jack.  I don't believe that Ennis is so resigned  to a life of lonliness,that he will not grow to want Jack around him  Sooner or later Ennis would want to see him. If Jack knew deep inside that Ennis would never learn to live with him, then what's Jack's point of going through what he went through for 20 years.? Ennis is the only one whom Jack would settle down for.
 Jack really thought he could make this happen for them.  He wanted  and needed more time with Ennis to make it happen. It may even be a slow process, but it's makes more sense to me than Jack living  un happy clear down in Texas.
 Again, it is a compromise, but could lead to something better than  what he had.
  Yep, it's a game of chance on Jack's part  of course, and imo chances they had.  after all ...he was the Jack of hearts and he had Ennis's. Worth a shot.  just MHO .

Thanks aintfoolin .  What you say here is certainly a valid perspective, although I still can't help thinking that Ennis's fears -- and perhaps his jealousy -- would negate anything gained by Jack's proximity.  It seemed to me that he didn't really want to know the "rest", which means that he half wanted the distance between them...

Just a thought...

[manhattangirl]

The new fear of Ennis wouldn't be being found out, but where was Jack, and who was he with.   Ennis is possessive of Jack.   Ennis still resisting on living with Jack, and maybe just seeing him may on weekends or set days during the week would have caused a whole new set of problems. 

Now Jack was near to him,  the "rest" was in Ennis face.  It would have been that one phone Ennis was waiting and didn't come, that two three day of not seeing or  hearing from Jack which would have made him crazy.  Jack being an hour late for that time together they have planned.  Who found out wouldn't be the problem but where Jack was would be.  And if Ennis was still wasn't willing to commit to him, but still dragging his feet, not that Jack would have been unfaithful to Ennis, but the short leash sure would have gotten shorter.
 
tpe makes a good point when he said:

It seemed to me that he didn't really want to know the "rest", which means that he half wanted the distance between them...

Just a thought...

[aintfoolin]

If they lived nearer, it wouldn't work, IMO. Ennis couldn't compartmentalize it if Jack were anywhere within easy reach, and Jack couldn't bear seeing him in a  casual way - look at how much they evidently want to kiss when the girls are there in the scene after the divorce. There's too much emotion crackling between them; sure, if they were together all the time it would eventually die down, as it would be bound to do, but long before that they'd have given themselves away, which is of course what Ennis is afraid of - look at the way he watches the guy who drives past in the pickup when he and Jack are doing no more than talking.Ennis at least can ONLY live a sham life because Jack is far away - no way he could keep up the act with Jack appearing regularly, or even knowing he could. And Jack would be even more frustrated, I think, if Ennis were within reach but he couldn't behave as he wanted to around him but had to cover up his feelings and watch every word he said.

These are all excellent posts! This one struck me as  I see this is exactly my point. Jack's goal is to stir that which is within Ennis so strongly that he WON"T be able to compartmentalize.  I feel strongly that He could accomplish so much more if he was not way down in "the whole nother country",.. deep in the heart of  Texas. were distractions  .. His plan is to get Ennis in state where he  won't be able to deny him, won't be able to keep up the act and convince himself that Jack is  "non-existent" till they meet again.
Yes, safety is a factor, but I'm sure they both knew better than to  kiss in  the middle of the local IGA grocery market in front of the world, and   they did'nt need  that anyway to prove their love.  Times were a' changin, but they need'nt be careless in 1967 rural Wy.  Jack sure was not ignorant  about how Ennis felt about public displays of affection. He aint dumb.  Ennis was'nt comfortable with it even in his "traditional" relationships. Sure, Ennis would be antsy, but in time this would fade, replaced with a cautious comfortability with Jack.

 In these isolated areas, Jack could just be *the guy who brought the old farm /ranch near Del Mar's place* as far as the town's folk would know. they need'nt advertise it or become targets.    Ennis becomes more malleable with time, gradually adapts more to the  mindset of having Jack nearer. Jack is in his life then, but not * in his face* per se, but there's  no time to think about escaping into the world of  3 months down the road till he sees or feels Jack's actual presence again. It's all part of the problem, not the solution. Jack needed a solution.

He was only successful in bringing Ennis's real feelings to the surface on Brokeback when he was persistent. He got Ennis to let go and be who he really was up there with determination. Every  positive action from Jack , warrants  a positive  reaction from Ennis.  Ennis needs this.  It's an established pattern with him, but Jack must be consistent. A persistent, continuation of Jack's presence, his love, put into action and words I feel is the key to at least getting Ennis to a point of allowing Jack to be more  of an  open part of his life. Never enough time? , Never enough, Jack said, this would give him all the time in the world . With a little bold persistence, he got what he desired out of Ennis on BBM, and whole lot more. I see Ennis as in SNIT , forcing himself courageously into doing something he told himself he'd never do.  Jack had laid the groundwork for it. Why not here?  Force of nature anyone?  just MHO.

[manhattangirl]

Could Ennis really  push Jack out of his mind when he wasn't with him?  I felt he carried Jack within him always.  That's why his life was so desolate without him.   Ennis biggest mistake was thinking that time was infinite for them, with his laundry list of obligateions he couldn't see beyond that, when Jack knew it wasn't, "not enough time, not enough".

It took Jack's death for Ennis to take that time.  He called Lureen, he went to Jack's parents and learned about who Jack was, and how it was for him no matter how painful the things Ennis found out was.  And because of the time he took, he found more about his lover than all of the twenty years he was with him.

And what Ennis learned in the end we see when he agree to go Alma, Jr. wedding, and not go to the roundup, he had to take the time for the ones he loved and loved him. 

When Jack said "If you don't never know the rest", maybe that what Ennis found, "the rest".  IMO

[tpe]

I think so too: that Ennis always carried Jack within him.  It sounds perverse that The person you keep away is the one always in in your mind -- but it happenes so many times in real life, no?

Funny, but just now, I read manhattangirl's last line and thought I detected a pun about Ennis ever being at "rest".  It startled me somewhat...

[welshwitch]

There must be at least a suggestion that /ennis is more at rest, or at peace maybem, oncee Jack is dead. Now the potential can never be realised, but neither  can he be forced to deal with his fears and fins d more an more excuses for not doing as Jack wishes. He's free of that pressure and can carry his love within him, only showing the tiniest part of it to someone he trusts, as he does Alma Jr. Jack is the great might-have-been of Ennis's life, part of a parallel universe which he never dared to enter and now he doesn't need to.

[aintfoolin]

 I'm now confused. Does "the rest" mean everything Jack can see as possible and Ennis can't? or is "the rest" "All them things" Ennis don't know but suspects Jack is doing in his absence. I'm still leaning towards Randall's role in Jack's life post-Ennis.In any case Jack had had enough IMO. While Ennis is still waundering around Brokeback in his mind,, ( " all we got now? is Brokeback Mt! everything's built on that" "I hope you know that"....) .
Jack came down from Brokeback thinking of the past, present, and  future with Ennis at his side. From the mountain,stems a sweet life for him. Having Ennis to have and to hold forever, his dream. Ennis came down holding on to memories of the past,  got stuck there.. Brokeback was only the beginning for Jack, he wanted to make something out of the time and experiences there, but Ennis tried to fight any long term plans beyond the mountain  with Alma , Cassie , kids, jobs, etc. ..  and that they did'nt really have a *thing* , just a one-shot deal....so he thought. Forgetting what happened to him and Jack up there proved harder than he imagined.  To deny Jack was to deny himself. Jack was just reminding him of that. The "rest" was up to him. My 2 cents.

[tpe]

I'm now confused. Does "the rest" mean everything Jack can see as possible and Ennis can't? or is "the rest" "All them things" Ennis don't know but suspects Jack is doing in his absence. I'm still leaning towards Randall's role in Jack's life post-Ennis.In any case Jack had had enough IMO. While Ennis is still waundering around Brokeback in his mind,, ( " all we got now? is Brokeback Mt! everything's built on that" "I hope you know that"....) .
Jack came down from Brokeback thinking of the past, present, and  future with Ennis at his side. From the mountain,stems a sweet life for him. Having Ennis to have and to hold forever, his dream. Ennis came down holding on to memories of the past,  got stuck there.. Brokeback was only the beginning for Jack, he wanted to make something out of the time and experiences there, but Ennis tried to fight any long term plans beyond the mountain  with Alma , Cassie , kids, jobs, etc. ..  and that they did'nt really have a *thing* , just a one-shot deal....so he thought. Forgetting what happened to him and Jack up there proved harder than he imagined.  To deny Jack was to deny himself. Jack was just reminding him of that. The "rest" was up to him. My 2 cents.

I think there is a dual meaning here.  It means both:  "the rest" refers to all the things Jack did that Ennis didn't know about AND all the things that Ennis will never know, because he let the opportunities pass him by.

[welshwitch]

To me it implies also that Jack does know the rest in the sense of what they could have had; he's envisaged it, seen it in his mind's eye, given it " a local habitation and a name", as Ennis never has. If he were able to see it, it would terrify him, so in a way he's better offf lacking the imaginative ability to see and alternative to what he has.

[tpe]

To me it implies also that Jack does know the rest in the sense of what they could have had; he's envisaged it, seen it in his mind's eye, given it " a local habitation and a name", as Ennis never has. If he were able to see it, it would terrify him, so in a way he's better offf lacking the imaginative ability to see and alternative to what he has.

Exactly.  When I said this referred to things that Ennis would never know because he let opportunities pass him by, I was referring primarily to a life with Jack.

[myprivatejack]

Well,perhaps we´ve been divagating about what would have happenned if Jack had lived closer to Ennis, and all this;the only real thing is the frustration that the final confrontation scene breathes...Why?Don ´t you think that both of them are right and wrong at the same time?And that both of them are in some way a little selfish?I mean,it´s easier for Jack to leave it all than for Ennis,because he has a social status that allows him a freedom than his lover hasn´t.As somebody told,he also forgets or underestimates the pain Ennis felt for his divorce and the following separation from his daughters.In this sense,he´s wrong and a little selfish;but he´s right because twenty years of loving without hope answer for him.Then,the wrong and sellfish is Ennis, when he doesn´t understand all what the other has left for him,including more time spent with his own son precisely.