Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"

[ksxks]

Interesting post, myprivatejack, about selfishness -- not really being able to put themselves in each other's shoes perhaps.

But what is "divagating"?  I don't think it's a word, though I could be wrong...but I like it, for what we do here on the forum -- divagating!   Like this?    Or like this? 

kathy

[myprivatejack]

  UUH,I think I´ve translated directly from Spanish¡I meant that we were perhaps letting aside the topic and the thread,speaking about something that there wasn´t on the movie nor in the book,and almost making our own plot,it´s to say,"divagating".But,what is your opinion about their respective reasons in the confrontation scene?

[tpe]

Well,perhaps we´ve been divagating about what would have happenned if Jack had lived closer to Ennis, and all this;the only real thing is the frustration that the final confrontation scene breathes...Why?Don ´t you think that both of them are right and wrong at the same time?And that both of them are in some way a little selfish?I mean,it´s easier for Jack to leave it all than for Ennis,because he has a social status that allows him a freedom than his lover hasn´t.As somebody told,he also forgets or underestimates the pain Ennis felt for his divorce and the following separation from his daughters.In this sense,he´s wrong and a little selfish;but he´s right because twenty years of loving without hope answer for him.Then,the wrong and sellfish is Ennis, when he doesn´t understand all what the other has left for him,including more time spent with his own son precisely.

The interesting thing, of course, is that I think Jack also has more to lose, as far as social status and stability. 

I think it is really a matter of what you are willing to do in order to get something. 

For Jack, this led him to try other things and seek connections with other people, even as he held on to the dream of having a life with Ennis.  Ennis was perhaps mindful of these connections and chose not to confront Jack about them until the final meeting. 

But I think both of them understood that the "rest" was all of the unknown opportunities open to them if they took the leap of faith together. 

For Ennis, there was a dread of the unknown. 

For Jack, there was an imperfect understanding of the consequences.

[myprivatejack]

Ah,Kathy¡I don´t know your own way,but on this forum I divagate so:
Speaking seriously,Tpe,Jack not only had left a lot of things for Ennis,but also had run some dangers;he was a man with a social status and a father-in-law that "hate his guts"-what probably led him to death-.But Ennis also has something to lose,precisely because his social status was not so high;a job with all what this means,the possibility of not seeing his daughters for a long time,and his dignity in sum-letting aside the same dangers that Jack also ran and that frightened him so much,not without being right-.I agree with you in that "the rest" was all the opportunities they lost and perhaps in Jack´s case,all the love and hopes he had put on Ennis and that sometimes he felt as if this one didn´t share.His doubts and fears often seem stronger than his love and this inner fight broke out in this final confrontation.

[tpe]

Ah,Kathy¡I don´t know your own way,but on this forum I divagate so:
Speaking seriously,Tpe,Jack not only had left a lot of things for Ennis,but also had run some dangers;he was a man with a social status and a father-in-law that "hate his guts"-what probably led him to death-.But Ennis also has something to lose,precisely because his social status was not so high;a job with all what this means,the possibility of not seeing his daughters for a long time,and his dignity in sum-letting aside the same dangers that Jack also ran and that frightened him so much,not without being right-.I agree with you in that "the rest" was all the opportunities they lost and perhaps in Jack´s case,all the love and hopes he had put on Ennis and that sometimes he felt as if this one didn´t share.His doubts and fears often seem stronger than his love and this inner fight broke out in this final confrontation.

What you said here is true MPJ. Ennis also did have a lot to lose, if we consider things more carefully.  The fact is that Ennis seemed more emotionally invested with his family (i.e., his daughters) or the idea of family.

Whatever kept Ennis way from a life with Jack, it must be admitted that Ennis also lost a great deal.  All the "rest" that Jack was alluding to must have also meant all the possibilities of a life share together -- well, as much as all the secrets they did not share openly with each other. Either way, some form of loss is entailed: we close the door on something if only to move on to the next room.  Perhaps what Ennis realized too late in the end was that the important thing was not to lose, but to keep on moving -- seeing what else is out there.

[myprivatejack]

Hello again,tpe¡And again I totally agree with you again... I think that Ennis realized too late too many questions:what you´ve said,but also knowing how to fight for what he wanted-what at least Jack knew very well-,be loyal to his family and comitments,but also to the love of his life,understand that life is too short to quite an illusion before being accomplished,etc.etc.... and,what´s worse,perhaps he realized too late how much Jack loved and needed him and even how much he loved and needed Jack.
These questions for me are part of "the rest" that he never know until it was too late and here lies the great tragedy of the relationship and theirs.Perhaps the "Jack,I swear..." meant:"Jack,I swear I won´t be so stupid..."

[tpe]

Hello again,tpe¡And again I totally agree with you again... I think that Ennis realized too late too many questions:what you´ve said,but also knowing how to fight for what he wanted-what at least Jack knew very well-,be loyal to his family and comitments,but also to the love of his life,understand that life is too short to quite an illusion before being accomplished,etc.etc.... and,what´s worse,perhaps he realized too late how much Jack loved and needed him and even how much he loved and needed Jack.
These questions for me are part of "the rest" that he never know until it was too late and here lies the great tragedy of the relationship and theirs.Perhaps the "Jack,I swear..." meant:"Jack,I swear I won´t be so stupid..."

Your last statement is a thought-provoking interpretation of Ennis's last line.  It never occured to me before, but makes sense, especially when juxtaposed with his recent acceptance to attend Jr.'s wedding. 

Perhaps there is both hope and finality to that last line.  I had always interpretetd it as his "marriage" vow.  But there may be more than one level of meaning in it.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks,tpe¡I like to provoke...good interpretations¡. Seriously,when I wrote "stupid" I meant not to have in the future some actions, or "inactions" with ,for example,his daughters and that,for me,can be resumed with this word in a very simple way...

Of course,there many interpretations in very different levels one can make of this last line,and I think you have done it in another thread before.It can be:
"I swear I won´t do with my daughters what I´ve done with you";"...I´ve always loved you although not always I´ve showed to you properly";"...I´ll leave your ashes to BBM";"...you will always be the love of my life",and so on,and on,and on.But this is another topic.And for me perhaps is "the rest".

[lightnin flat]

  even if ennis didnt know the rest he did know by the end of their time togther that jack couldnt make it on a couple of high altitude f---s one or twice a year.                 

      presuming jack was talking about men in this statement what must ennis have been thinking at this point.i wonder.                                                             

[aintfoolin]

I think maybe Ennis connected this statement from Jack to  Mexico and all the other things he did'nt know , but suspected. Once or twice a year? Hell ,who could blame him?  If Ennis had any feeling for Jack at all , he has to know that this is not acceptable.
Jack was not living the isolated exisitence that Ennis lived. He was *out there* in the midst of much temptation. Wether it's hustlers, Randall, or even LaShawn? ,Jack was vulnerable to that temptation due to Ennis not tcb in that respect. Jack said it " I'm not you". Ennis demands Jack's faithfulness no matter what, Jack says ,what Ennis don't know...well, it certainly can't hurt him. It's not like he wanted it this way, only Ennis held the solution to this.  MO.

[tpe]

Yes, I originally also thought that Ennis must have thought about all the other "activities" that Jack hid from him, although I now have this feeling that Ennis also must have understood that it also referred to all the missed opportunities in their lives. 

I now think that both of them understood "the rest" to mean both...

 

[ragtimecowboy]

Yes, I originally also thought that Ennis must have thought about all the other "activities" that Jack hid from him, although I now have this feeling that Ennis also must have understood that it also referred to all the missed opportunities in their lives. 

I now think that both of them understood "the rest" to mean both...

 

  Your dead right on this. When Ennis fell to his knees he realized the full weight of the situation at hand, as well Jack did as he drew Ennis to him to comfort him. When I see this scene, the hauntingly beautiful lyrics of "Dreams" sung by Stevie Nicks come to mind.

[tpe]

  Your dead right on this. When Ennis fell to his knees he realized the full weight of the situation at hand, as well Jack did as he drew Ennis to him to comfort him. When I see this scene, the hauntingly beautiful lyrics of "Dreams" sung by Stevie Nicks come to mind.

Thanks ragtimecowboy.  (And I must check the lyrics of this song). 

So many layers of meaning in this one scene...

[myprivatejack]

I think both of them knew very well at that point,not only of the "confrontation scene",but of their relationship what "the rest" meant,and they only were looking unconsciously for the right situation to deal with it.Yes,tpe,I also think there´re so many layers of meaning and interpretation on this scene,everyone can give theirs according to their feelings,but I think mainly that "the rest" means the opportunities of being together that they had lost for Ennis behaviour.And also,perhaps,bearing in mind Jack´s touching speech,it can means:..."You´ll never know how much I´ve loved you;in spite of my occassional reliefs in Mexico,I´m not speaking only about sex when I´m referring to you".

[tpe]

I think both of them knew very well at that point,not only of the "confrontation scene",but of their relationship what "the rest" meant,and they only were looking unconsciously for the right situation to deal with it.Yes,tpe,I also think there´re so many layers of meaning and interpretation on this scene,everyone can give theirs according to their feelings,but I think mainly that "the rest" means the opportunities of being together that they had lost for Ennis behaviour.And also,perhaps,bearing in mind Jack´s touching speech,it can means:..."You´ll never know how much I´ve loved you;in spite of my occassional reliefs in Mexico,I´m not speaking only about sex when I´m referring to you".

Yes, I do think that by the time the confrontation scene rolled in, they were ripe for dealing with it.  The ripening was really a gradual process, which I think manifested itself early on.  Certainly, by the time Jack left Ennis for his visit to Mexico, a line had been crossed subconsciously, and once that line had been crossed, they were never the same in their understanding as to "the rest".

[myprivatejack]

I'd like to "resuscitate" this old thread by saying that,as a resume,this phrase "...if you don't never know the rest" is,above all,a kind of love's declaration on Jack's side.It could be-and,as a matter of fact,is too...-that Ennis didn't know about Randall or his Mexico trips; but I think that specially is some intangible things that there're in that "rest":the lots of times Jack had cried for the death of his "sweet life together" dream,the things he had left and the risks he had run for being with Ennis,the time they had lost,etc.And,above all still,for me "the rest" is "How much I've loved you and I love you still,and you had never seemed to realise it."

[ksxks]

I'd like to "resuscitate" this old thread by saying that,as a resume,this phrase "...if you don't never know the rest" is,above all,a kind of love's declaration on Jack's side.It could be-and,as a matter of fact,is too...-that Ennis didn't know about Randall or his Mexico trips; but I think that specially is some intangible things that there're in that "rest":the lots of times Jack had cried for the death of his "sweet life together" dream,the things he had left and the risks he had run for being with Ennis,the time they had lost,etc.And,above all still,for me "the rest" is "How much I've loved you and I love you still,and you had never seemed to realise it."

I never fully understood exactly what that line meant, but the way you put it here, MPJ, I get it.  "The rest" being all the ways Jack felt.  Maybe Ennis was too busy denying himself to really understand or know or think about how "this thing" was for Jack over all these years.

Only slightly off topic, there is something in this scene I also don't really get.  Ennis says, "You got a better idea?"  Jack says, "I did, once."  Then Ennis says, "You been to Mexico?" and it goes from there.  I've always wondered why Ennis says that right then.  Doesn't seem anything brought it up.

However, I kind of just answered my own question.  In the screenplay, it's expressed more clearly.  There is a little bit in there between the dialogue that explains Ennis's thought process right then, and also that Jack had been waiting for Ennis to comment on this all these years.

Thanks for listening -- I was just thinkin' out loud.

kathy

[rimasworld]

I never fully understood exactly what that line meant, but the way you put it here, MPJ, I get it.  "The rest" being all the ways Jack felt.  Maybe Ennis was too busy denying himself to really understand or know or think about how "this thing" was for Jack over all these years.

Only slightly off topic, there is something in this scene I also don't really get.  Ennis says, "You got a better idea?"  Jack says, "I did, once."  Then Ennis says, "You been to Mexico?" and it goes from there.  I've always wondered why Ennis says that right then.  Doesn't seem anything brought it up.

However, I kind of just answered my own question.  In the screenplay, it's expressed more clearly.  There is a little bit in there between the dialogue that explains Ennis's thought process right then, and also that Jack had been waiting for Ennis to comment on this all these years.

Thanks for listening -- I was just thinkin' out loud.

kathy

I guess because Jack had mentioned a bit before that they should go some place warm like Mexico but I kind of wondered how Ennis knew what went on there. I think Ennis was more aware of the ways of the world than he let on. Again like that old saying goes "still waters run deep" He kept quiet a lot but that mind of his was always working.

[manhattangirl]

In the ss it implied Ennis knew exactly what went on in Mexico, but only by what he heard, sometimes we think of Ennis living a "cloistered life", but on the contrary.  I think sometimes Ennis knew "the rest", he loved Jack.  JMO.

[tpe]

I think I did say it before also that there is a double meawning behind this declaration by Jack.  On the surface, it meant all his affairs and hook-ups with other men.  On a deeper level, it refers to the joy of love and the experience of a life lived in love -- in other words, Jack's dream of a sweet life.  On a totally different level, it may serve as a premonition of Jack's death.  Certainly, with hindsight, many menaings (intended or unintended) can be overlayed in this enigmantic statement.

[atalley]

I'm working my way through this thread.  It's gut-wrenching, but IMO I think it's the best thread online!

[myprivatejack]

I never fully understood exactly what that line meant, but the way you put it here, MPJ, I get it.  "The rest" being all the ways Jack felt.  Maybe Ennis was too busy denying himself to really understand or know or think about how "this thing" was for Jack over all these years.

Only slightly off topic, there is something in this scene I also don't really get.  Ennis says, "You got a better idea?"  Jack says, "I did, once."  Then Ennis says, "You been to Mexico?" and it goes from there.  I've always wondered why Ennis says that right then.  Doesn't seem anything brought it up.

However, I kind of just answered my own question.  In the screenplay, it's expressed more clearly.  There is a little bit in there between the dialogue that explains Ennis's thought process right then, and also that Jack had been waiting for Ennis to comment on this all these years.

Thanks for listening -- I was just thinkin' out loud.

kathy

Perhaps off topic too;Jack answers "I did,once" and Ennis repeats this phrase to ask him in his turn if he has been to Mexico...I think that Ennis uses this suspicion about his lover's faithfulness to avoid really speaking about this idea Jack had once.Maybe he didn't suspect in that moment that this excuse would serve precisely to make the confrontation he wanted to avoid explode with more strength.JMHO.

[ksxks]

I guess because Jack had mentioned a bit before that they should go some place warm like Mexico but I kind of wondered how Ennis knew what went on there. I think Ennis was more aware of the ways of the world than he let on. Again like that old saying goes "still waters run deep" He kept quiet a lot but that mind of his was always working.

I think so, too.  I do remember that Jack mentioned Mexico earlier, but still, Ennis's comment at that moment seemed to come out of nowhere.  But that goes along with what you just said about Ennis.  That Jack had mentioned Mexico was still stewing in Ennis's brain during the rest of the "confrontation" conversation -- it just took awhile for him to formulate how he felt about it or how Jack would feel about it, and to let the words out.

But as I said, my questioning it came from taking the movie at face value, without the benefit of the story or screenplay.  They both answer many questions.

kathy

[ksxks]

Perhaps off topic too;Jack answers "I did,once" and Ennis repeats this phrase to ask him in his turn if he has been to Mexico...I think that Ennis uses this suspicion about his lover's faithfulness to avoid really speaking about this idea Jack had once.Maybe he didn't suspect in that moment that this excuse would serve precisely to make the confrontation he wanted to avoid explode with more strength.JMHO.

Aha!  Excellent observation and explanation of it.  That seems just right.

And I'd forgotten how Ennis repeats Jack, says "you did, once." 

kathy

[lancecowboy]

I'm working my way through this thread.  It's gut-wrenching, but IMO I think it's the best thread online!

I second every word. It's about the core of the love between Ennis and Jack.

[tpe]

Ennis read "I did once" as a provocation -- which was why he brought up the trips to Mexico.  The culmination leads to Ennis's threat to Jack.  It is interesting to note that Jack's response is part justification and part prophecy.   The "rest" is left intentionally vague -- so that it lingers in our mind as we see the succeeding scenes unfold.

 

[ksxks]

Ennis read "I did once" as a provocation -- which was why he brought up the trips to Mexico.  The culmination leads to Ennis's threat to Jack.  It is interesting to note that Jack's response is part justification and part prophecy.   The "rest" is left intentionally vague -- so that it lingers in our mind as we see the succeeding scenes unfold.

This is so true.  His saying, "I did once" may well be heard to mean that he doesn't anymore.  Which could lead Ennis to believe Jack has given up on the sweet life with Ennis (which to Ennis means of course a totally monogamous sweet life).  So he feels Jack might be messing around...and then after the comment about Mexico, it all comes together in Ennis's mind.

Good -- I get it now.  Thank you all.

kathy

[lancecowboy]

I guess because Jack had mentioned a bit before that they should go some place warm like Mexico but I kind of wondered how Ennis knew what went on there. I think Ennis was more aware of the ways of the world than he let on. Again like that old saying goes "still waters run deep" He kept quiet a lot but that mind of his was always working.

I have always thought that Ennis is a lot smarter than he let on. He just takes longer to think things through. He is faster on his horse than thinking on his feet. He may not travel farther than looking for the handle around coffee pot, but he knew about Colorado (in the short story) and Mexico.

In the ss it implied Ennis knew exactly what went on in Mexico, but only by what he heard, sometimes we think of Ennis living a "cloistered life", but on the contrary.  I think sometimes Ennis knew "the rest", he loved Jack.  JMO.

I think so, too. He knew about Jack's needs, and he was willing to let it pass, as long as Jack doesn't flaunt it in his face. That's why he said "if I come to know..." he suspected already, just didn't want to know in words. He loved Jack just as he was, without trying to change him. Jack went along with Ennis the way he was, too, but, it was just too much, to love someone for twenty years, and get nothing more than a couple high-altitude f@#S a few times a year, and a couple shirts in the closet back home. He was going to spend a couple days in Lightning Flats. No doubt Jack would be hugging those shirts. I think Ennis would know that, too, a few months later, hugging those same shirts, breathing in Jack's smells. With Cassie's words fresh in his mind, he'd know why much Jack loved him, not just for fun. That was 'the rest'. What Jack probably never told Ennis, that he wanted him to move to Lightning Flats...for the sweet life.

[tpe]

This is so true.  His saying, "I did once" may well be heard to mean that he doesn't anymore.  Which could lead Ennis to believe Jack has given up on the sweet life with Ennis (which to Ennis means of course a totally monogamous sweet life).  So he feels Jack might be messing around...and then after the comment about Mexico, it all comes together in Ennis's mind.

Good -- I get it now.  Thank you all.

kathy

That is a better wasy of putting it, kathy.  I guess this is why there was something in Jack's response that struck me as vaguely unpleasant.  Ennis must have took the supposition as an insult -- or close to it; hence, his response.  But what was perhaps most painful to Ennis was the fact that Jack spoke the truth, and that perhaps Jack had finally given up hope, when he said "I did once."

[myprivatejack]

That is a better wasy of putting it, kathy.  I guess this is why there was something in Jack's response that struck me as vaguely unpleasant.  Ennis must have took the supposition as an insult -- or close to it; hence, his response.  But what was perhaps most painful to Ennis was the fact that Jack spoke the truth, and that perhaps Jack had finally given up hope, when he said "I did once."

It could have been taken for Ennis as an insult or,at least,as a renounce of the part of Jack of this "sweet life together".This,joined with the suspicions he had about Jack's faithfulness,made him answer in this way.
But I tend to suppose that,mainly,he was suspicious,yes,but he was waiting for the right moment to tell it.He knew perfectly that he couldn't "attack" Jack with this suspicion after having told him that they didn't see each other in months.But his friend "served it in argent plate",as we say here,when he said this "I did once"; Ennis then had a good excuse to avoid the subject by speaking,at his turn,about what happenned with Mexico.JMHO.