Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"

[MississaugaRed]

Jack has hit a nerve in Ennis with the satement "We coulda had a real good life," and Ennis, feeling pain, just wants to strike out and cause pain. At least he said it quietly to the horses; he has some self-control. Jack is at his wit's end.

But I am sure you have noticed his self-control is limited to Jack. 

Instead of walking over to the horses and saying something nobody can hear, he says it as he turns his back to Jack.  He says, "G*d damn.........(something)

From what we'd seen of Ennis before this, could easily have been "G*d damn .. Jack F**king Twist."  He says that a lot, both as a curse and a prayer.
Beautiful words earlier, too, BBBoy and Kemmer.  Love isn't a toy, Amen to that. The teachings of Brokeback; maybe we'll learn enough to "know the rest" someday when it's important to us in our own lives.

[welshwitch]

Perhaps we know the rest. Perhaps we are the rest.

[tpe]

Perhaps we know the rest. Perhaps we are the rest.

Indeed. 

Beautiful.

[mactwck]

So if Ennis had been available in August this never would have come out?  I was always amazed at how mad Jack got when Ennis said no August, according to the book and movie, they only met once or twice a year, so this year it would have been May, August and November?

I always felt that these painful words were said in anger and disappointment of not only being together in August, but like the punch Ennis dealt to Jack when they came off the mountain and they could not deal with the reality of having to leave the mountain early.

I do not think Jack was giving up on Ennis, just the night before he told him how much he missed him.

How often in our lives do we keep the status quo because we do not want to give up hope that things will be different?

[tpe]

So if Ennis had been available in August this never would have come out?  I was always amazed at how mad Jack got when Ennis said no August, according to the book and movie, they only met once or twice a year, so this year it would have been May, August and November?

I always felt that these painful words were said in anger and disappointment of not only being together in August, but like the punch Ennis dealt to Jack when they came off the mountain and they could not deal with the reality of having to leave the mountain early.

I do not think Jack was giving up on Ennis, just the night before he told him how much he missed him.

How often in our lives do we keep the status quo because we do not want to give up hope that things will be different?

Hello mactwck.  The time frame alluded to in the last meeting is a bit tricky.  If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it could very well imply that it was November of NEXT YEAR that Ennis was proposing.

This is a tricky topic.  I point you to an old thread with a number of interesting posts.  It is entitled something like Timeline of the Last Scenes (I have not checked this in a while).

[BBBOY]

So if Ennis had been available in August this never would have come out?  I was always amazed at how mad Jack got when Ennis said no August, according to the book and movie, they only met once or twice a year, so this year it would have been May, August and November?

I always felt that these painful words were said in anger and disappointment of not only being together in August, but like the punch Ennis dealt to Jack when they came off the mountain and they could not deal with the reality of having to leave the mountain early.

I do not think Jack was giving up on Ennis, just the night before he told him how much he missed him.

How often in our lives do we keep the status quo because we do not want to give up hope that things will be different?

Hello mactwck.  The time frame alluded to in the last meeting is a bit tricky.  If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it could very well imply that it was November of NEXT YEAR that Ennis was proposing.

This is a tricky topic.  I point you to an old thread with a number of interesting posts.  It is entitled something like Timeline of the Last Scenes (I have not checked this in a while).

As tpe points out, the timeline gets real murky here. I'm not sure if it was just sloopy continuity or we are missing something.

[NoReins]

I can't believe that Ennis was meaning November of next year - no way could he have stood it if their next meeting wasn't going to be for a year and a half. I always thought their last meeting was earlier in the year than May, though - maybe February or March, just judging from the clothes they were wearing. I think when he says "it was hard enough getting this time, the trade off was August" that indicates that it's the same calendar year they're talking about.

[Patriot1]

I can't believe that Ennis was meaning November of next year - no way could he have stood it if their next meeting wasn't going to be for a year and a half. I always thought their last meeting was earlier in the year than May, though - maybe February or March, just judging from the clothes they were wearing. I think when he says "it was hard enough getting this time, the trade off was August" that indicates that it's the same calendar year they're talking about.

Yes, I agree NoReins.  There is no way either of them could have waited a year and a half.

[welshwitch]

I agree too, and if you look at the list in the short story of the numerous places they went together, they musthave ben meeting every few months - why would that change now?

[tpe]

For those interested, here is the old thread I referred to.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=715a5c3b1adf956b7d4d765988e9015a&topic=968.0

[tpe]

A bit cursory to the main topic, but here is the best summary from the Timeline Thread comparing the short story and screenplay.

I posted this on IMDB.  Hope you enjoy it too:

Here goes after seeing the movie eight times, and reading the published version of the screenplay, certain year milestones are noted:

1963 - The year they meet, summer. After Brokeback, Ennis marries Alma the same year.

1964 - Ennis and Alma are married, and expecting their first child. The movie at the Drive-in is "Surf Party", from 1964.

1966 - Fourth of July when Ennis beats up the foul mouthed Biker. The announcer in the background clearly says Fourth of July, 1966. Same summer, Jack attempts to pick up Jimbo the Rodeo Clown, then meets Lureen.

1967 - Four years after the summer on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis reunite.

Flashback: 1952 - Ennis' father takes him and his brother to see the murdered body of Earl, the rancher. Ennis says he is 9 years old, which means he must have turned 20 later in the fall of 1963, after the summer on Brokeback, which makes sense since the book says he was "not yet twenty", which seems to imply "not yet twenty, but almost/soon will be".

1969 - The "Where's my Blue Parka?" scene. The screenplay is messed up here about dates. In the space of two pages the year changes from 1971 to 1969 to a scene with a wall calendar that says 1973! I think that 1969 is supposed to be the correct year, but then why would little Bobby need a tutor at age of only 2 or 3? In the movie though we are free to place it in any year we choose in a given late sixties, early 70's range.

1972 - The montage where Jack is letting bobby drive the tractor and Ennis is baling hay out the back of a truck

1973 - Ennis and Alma sit in their apartment on a Saturday night and watch an episode of "Kojack". Alma wants to go to the Church social, but Ennis dosesn't feel like hanging out with "..that fire and brimstone crowd."

1975 - Ennis and Alma divorce. The date is read by the judge. I believe it's in July. The 5th? (Correction: The date of their divorce is November 6th) Jack drives up to see Ennis, hoping this means they will now be able to live together.

1977 - Thanksgiving with Ennis at Alma and Monroe's, and at the Twist Household. You hear the year read by the announcer at the football game on television. The screenplay describes Bobby as being 10, which means he would have had to be two when he needed the tutor.

1978 - Jack and Ennis go to the Mountains again, "Aww go to hell Ennis Del Mar, you want to live your miserable *beep* life, go ahead..." Jack and Lureen meet Randall and LaShawn Malone, at a benefit dinner dance. Ennis meets Cassie.

1979 - Scene with Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr. at the bar. The screenplay describes Alma Jr. as 15 yrs,

1981/1983 - Jack and Ennis meet for the last time in 1981 (screenplay) or 1983 (book). In the book, Proulx says they go everywhere but back to Brokeback. In the movie it seems like they always return to Brokeback or we assume so. Cassie confronts Ennis in the Diner.

1982 - In the screenplay, this is the year Jack is killed, and Ennis has the phone coversation with Lureen. Ennis meets Jack's parents.

1984 - Final scenes in movie with Ennis and Alma Jr., the reversed shirts.

"You know it could be like this, just like this, always"
Black Hat White Hat

[frenchcda]

 

[mactwck]

A bit cursory to the main topic, but here is the best summary from the Timeline Thread comparing the short story and screenplay.

I posted this on IMDB.  Hope you enjoy it too:

Here goes after seeing the movie eight times, and reading the published version of the screenplay, certain year milestones are noted:

1963 - The year they meet, summer. After Brokeback, Ennis marries Alma the same year.

1964 - Ennis and Alma are married, and expecting their first child. The movie at the Drive-in is "Surf Party", from 1964.

1966 - Fourth of July when Ennis beats up the foul mouthed Biker. The announcer in the background clearly says Fourth of July, 1966. Same summer, Jack attempts to pick up Jimbo the Rodeo Clown, then meets Lureen.

1967 - Four years after the summer on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis reunite.

Flashback: 1952 - Ennis' father takes him and his brother to see the murdered body of Earl, the rancher. Ennis says he is 9 years old, which means he must have turned 20 later in the fall of 1963, after the summer on Brokeback, which makes sense since the book says he was "not yet twenty", which seems to imply "not yet twenty, but almost/soon will be".

1969 - The "Where's my Blue Parka?" scene. The screenplay is messed up here about dates. In the space of two pages the year changes from 1971 to 1969 to a scene with a wall calendar that says 1973! I think that 1969 is supposed to be the correct year, but then why would little Bobby need a tutor at age of only 2 or 3? In the movie though we are free to place it in any year we choose in a given late sixties, early 70's range.

1972 - The montage where Jack is letting bobby drive the tractor and Ennis is baling hay out the back of a truck

1973 - Ennis and Alma sit in their apartment on a Saturday night and watch an episode of "Kojack". Alma wants to go to the Church social, but Ennis dosesn't feel like hanging out with "..that fire and brimstone crowd."

1975 - Ennis and Alma divorce. The date is read by the judge. I believe it's in July. The 5th? (Correction: The date of their divorce is November 6th) Jack drives up to see Ennis, hoping this means they will now be able to live together.

1977 - Thanksgiving with Ennis at Alma and Monroe's, and at the Twist Household. You hear the year read by the announcer at the football game on television. The screenplay describes Bobby as being 10, which means he would have had to be two when he needed the tutor.

1978 - Jack and Ennis go to the Mountains again, "Aww go to hell Ennis Del Mar, you want to live your miserable *beep* life, go ahead..." Jack and Lureen meet Randall and LaShawn Malone, at a benefit dinner dance. Ennis meets Cassie.

1979 - Scene with Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr. at the bar. The screenplay describes Alma Jr. as 15 yrs,

1981/1983 - Jack and Ennis meet for the last time in 1981 (screenplay) or 1983 (book). In the book, Proulx says they go everywhere but back to Brokeback. In the movie it seems like they always return to Brokeback or we assume so. Cassie confronts Ennis in the Diner.

1982 - In the screenplay, this is the year Jack is killed, and Ennis has the phone coversation with Lureen. Ennis meets Jack's parents.

1984 - Final scenes in movie with Ennis and Alma Jr., the reversed shirts.

"You know it could be like this, just like this, always"
Black Hat White Hat

Yes but Lureen says Jack was only 39 years old so we know it was 1983 because in 1963 he was 19 and on Brokeback with Ennis.  I guess I always assumed that there last meeting was in May of 1983 like the short story says. 

[Valandil Eluch]

 :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

Yes but Lureen says Jack was only 39 years old so we know it was 1983 because in 1963 he was 19 and on Brokeback with Ennis.  I guess I always assumed that there last meeting was in May of 1983 like the short story says. 

Yes, in the old thread I referred to, it is cited that Jack and Ennis would have been 20 when they met.  This is consistent with the screenplay, but not with the short story.

[tpe]

From the old thread:

By the way, a fallout to our above conclusions is the following:  Jack died in 1982 at the age of 39.  This means that he was 20 years old (NOT 19) when he and Ennis met in the summer of 1963.  Ennis was also probably 20 years old at the time of the first meeting.

[pierralex]

It depends wether he was born in the beginning or in the end of the year...

[tpe]

It depends wether he was born in the beginning or in the end of the year...

This true.  Unlike in the case of Alma Jr., we don't really have a handle on this.

With reference to the original topic: if there was indeed a year between the final meeting and the proposed November meeting, then there was probably enough time for Jack to have come to terms with his Texas neighbor in nit so uncertain terms.  This would add extra meaning to 'all the rest'.  Perhaps we shall never really know that rest...

[frenchboy]

Could they have had celebrated their birthday on Brokeback Mountain?
Cut scenes??? I would love it... By a whisky spring 

[welshwitch]

There's so much irony in this line - there was never going to be any rest for the two of them, and only a sort of maimed one for Ennis. Dylan Thomas's wife wrote an autobiographical book called "Leftover Life to Kill" and that seems to me to be true of Ennis after Jack's death. "The rest" for him might involve knowing what he'd felt for Jack and being more attuned to his own emotions,but it also involved the permanent absece of the one person who gave his life meaning. 

[tpe]

There's so much irony in this line - there was never going to be any rest for the two of them, and only a sort of maimed one for Ennis. Dylan Thomas's wife wrote an autobiographical book called "Leftover Life to Kill" and that seems to me to be true of Ennis after Jack's death. "The rest" for him might involve knowing what he'd felt for Jack and being more attuned to his own emotions,but it also involved the permanent absece of the one person who gave his life meaning. 

Beautiful, welshwitch.

 

[karen1129]

There's so much irony in this line - there was never going to be any rest for the two of them, and only a sort of maimed one for Ennis. Dylan Thomas's wife wrote an autobiographical book called "Leftover Life to Kill" and that seems to me to be true of Ennis after Jack's death. "The rest" for him might involve knowing what he'd felt for Jack and being more attuned to his own emotions,but it also involved the permanent absece of the one person who gave his life meaning. 

So true, there was not going to be a happy ending .  The rest really was we coulda had a good life.
You didn't want it.  Ennis could not accept he was in love with a man.
Living with Jack would mean he was queer.  To this day, I see Ennis Del Mar sitting all alone saying to himself....
Ya know I ain't queer !

[amtamburo]

  Kinda going back to the original topic here...

I always felt that Jack's "I hope you know that if you don't ever know the rest" is basically his way of saying that he blames Ennis for making things the way they were... think about everything he said before that line...

Jack: Tell you what, we coulda had a good life together, fu**kn real good life, had us a place of our own, but you didn't want it, Ennis! So what we got now, is Brokeback Mountain! Everything’s built on that, that's all we got boy, fu**kn all! So I hope you know that if you don't ever know the rest!

Ennis: G*dammit...

Jack: You count the damn few times that we have been together in nearly twenty years, and you measure the short fu**kn leash that you keep me on and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for wanting something I don't hardly never get!

If you look at it this way, Ennis has just told him that he might kill him if he was to learn all about Mexico etc. and Jack is basically coming back and saying "You have only yourself to blame for driving me to Mexico... I wanted to make a life with you, and you didn't want me except on your terms."

In truth, Ennis was entirely unfair to Jack pretty much from the beginning of their after-reunion relationship. "Sure, I'll spend time with you and all... but only when it's convenient for me. So don't ever contact me in between, don’t ever complain or get upset about not being able to see me, don't ever just show up out of the blue, and don’t ever say things that even smack of your feelings for me because they make me uncomfortable and I won’t respond or return the sentiment in anyway… Oh… and by the way… don’t ever see any other men. Women are fine… but no men!”

Hmm... frankly, in a situation like that I am surprised that Jack didn't give up years ago, and sadly, much as it hurts to think it... I believe that Jack had given up. The fact that he was talking about another man at his parents house suggests that, while he truly does love Ennis and would do anything to be with him, he had perhaps finally accepted that he and Ennis would never be together and had decided to try to grab a bit of happiness where he could. That defeated, look of pure pain that he has on his face as Ennis drives away... I think he looks that way because his heart has been broken once again, and he has decided that it is time to give up.

If so, one can hardly blame him.  :\'(

(I am aware that I have pretty much just trashed Ennis into the ground... and I apologize if I have offended anyone.  :-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" )

[tpe]

Hmm... frankly, in a situation like that I am surprised that Jack didn't give up years ago, and sadly, much as it hurts to think it... I believe that Jack had given up. The fact that he was talking about another man at his parents house suggests that, while he truly does love Ennis and would do anything to be with him, he had perhaps finally accepted that he and Ennis would never be together and had decided to try to grab a bit of happiness where he could. That defeated, look of pure pain that he has on his face as Ennis drives away... I think he looks that way because his heart has been broken once again, and he has decided that it is time to give up.

I profess (and fear) that this is indeed the truth.

Thanks amtamburo. 

[karen1129]

Kinda going back to the original topic here...

I always felt that Jack's "I hope you know that if you don't ever know the rest" is basically his way of saying that he blames Ennis for making things the way they were... think about everything he said before that line...

Jack: Tell you what, we coulda had a good life together, fu**kn real good life, had us a place of our own, but you didn't want it, Ennis! So what we got now, is Brokeback Mountain! Everything’s built on that, that's all we got boy, fu**kn all! So I hope you know that if you don't ever know the rest!

Ennis: G*dammit...

Jack: You count the damn few times that we have been together in nearly twenty years, and you measure the short fu**kn lease that you keep me on and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for wanting something I don't hardly never get!

If you look at it this way, Ennis has just told him that he might kill him if he was to learn all about Mexico etc. and Jack is basically coming back and saying "You have only yourself to blame for driving me to Mexico... I wanted to make a life with you, and you didn't want me except on your terms."

In truth, Ennis was entirely unfair to Jack pretty much from the beginning of their after-reunion relationship. "Sure, I'll spend time with you and all... but only when it's convenient for me. So don't ever contact me in between, don’t ever complain or get upset about not being able to see me, don't ever just show up out of the blue, and don’t ever say things that even smack of your feelings for me because they make me uncomfortable and I won’t respond or return the sentiment in anyway… Oh… and by the way… don’t ever see any other men. Women are fine… but no men!”

Hmm... frankly, in a situation like that I am surprised that Jack didn't give up years ago, and sadly, much as it hurts to think it... I believe that Jack had given up. The fact that he was talking about another man at his parents house suggests that, while he truly does love Ennis and would do anything to be with him, he had perhaps finally accepted that he and Ennis would never be together and had decided to try to grab a bit of happiness where he could. That defeated, look of pure pain that he has on his face as Ennis drives away... I think he looks that way because his heart has been broken once again, and he has decided that it is time to give up.

If so, one can hardly blame him.  :'(

(I am aware that I have pretty much just trashed Ennis into the ground... and I apologize if I have offended anyone.  :-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" )

Hear... Hear...     very good post.  I agree whole heartedly.  I loved  both these guys, but ....
Ennis did keep Jack on a short leash.   I think he finally accepted Ennis wasn't going to change.
Love does not conquer all.  Jack dserved a chance at happiness.  I have been in love like that....
I wouldn't have hung in for 20 years.  I did 5 years once.  Jack deserved better.  Ennis realized
that after Jack was gone.......   

[edgar]

Quoting amtamburo:

"That defeated, look of pure pain that he has on his face as Ennis drives away... I think he looks that way because his heart has been broken once again, and he has decided that it is time to give up."

One little quibble: it is not a look of pure pain. It is a look of resignation, despair. As I have said before, Jack's blue eyes which can express such hope and love turn to ice in that scene.

I think if one looks into those eyes, one sees that Jack has indeed given up on Ennis--at least on being able to have a real relationship with Ennis--for the time being.

 :\'(

[amtamburo]

I do agree that it is definitely a look of resignation and despair... but I also see a wealth (20 years if you will) of pain there as well. 

[BBBOY]

  :-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" )

You are not alone with this sentiment amtamburo.

[mactwck]

  :-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" )

You are not alone with this sentiment amtamburo.

No you are not alone....but at the same time I just watched the love of my life drive away (just two short months ago) and I did not tell him how I felt because he is married. Life has a way of getting in the way of how we want things to go.  I do not know how they did 20 years of goodbyes. My friend is coming back next week for a visit and I am so excited and dreading it at the same time.  OT, but what do I do?

[tpe]

  :-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" )

You are not alone with this sentiment amtamburo.

No you are not alone....but at the same time I just watched the love of my life drive away (just two short months ago) and I did not tell him how I felt because he is married. Life has a way of getting in the way of how we want things to go.  I do not know how they did 20 years of goodbyes. My friend is coming back next week for a visit and I am so excited and dreading it at the same time.  OT, but what do I do?

Perhaps OOT.  But I suggest that you don't plan.  Nothing wonderful or untoward has to happen. Just trust your heart. If you are secure in your own love, nothing changes.  That was how they withstood the 20 years of goodbyes.