Topic: Jack: "...If you don't never know the rest"

[welshwitch]

If it's the real thing, love lasts - that's its glory and its agony.

[LuvJackNasty]

There's so much irony in this line - there was never going to be any rest for the two of them, and only a sort of maimed one for Ennis. Dylan Thomas's wife wrote an autobiographical book called "Leftover Life to Kill" and that seems to me to be true of Ennis after Jack's death. "The rest" for him might involve knowing what he'd felt for Jack and being more attuned to his own emotions,but it also involved the permanent absece of the one person who gave his life meaning. 

That is so beautiful and so sad.  :\'(

[amtamburo]

If it's the real thing, love lasts - that's its glory and its agony.

This is so true... however, I also believe (been there... done that) that love can be squashed and bent and mangled to the point that, even though the love is still there, it simply hurts to much to continue with it. I think that is what happened for Jack.

I believe that he still loved Ennis very much, but I think that he had finally realized that that love... the one he had put so much time, energy, tenderness, hope, pain and effort into... was never going to come to fruitation. I believe that although he would always love Ennis, and perhaps he might have even continued with their meetings for a time, he had decided that he needed to push that love aside a bit and perhaps explore other means of finding happiness... aka Randall.

Having been in that position, I know how heart rending and soul tearing giving up on someone that you love above all others can be. It leaves a scar that never truly heals and is easily made to bleed again and again. However, there does come a time when having your heart trounced over and over becomes so unbearable that you simply can't do it anymore!

Of course, that is me projecting my experiences onto Jack... and I could be totally off, but I can relate so deeply to Jack's pain and loss that I can't help but think that must have been how it was for him as well.  :-[

[karen1129]

If it's the real thing, love lasts - that's its glory and its agony.

This is so true... however, I also believe (been there... done that) that love can be squashed and bent and mangled to the point that, even though the love is still there, it simply hurts to much to continue with it. I think that is what happened for Jack.

I believe that he still loved Ennis very much, but I think that he had finally realized that that love... the one he had put so much time, energy, tenderness, hope, pain and effort into... was never going to come to fruitation. I believe that although he would always love Ennis, and perhaps he might have even continued with their meetings for a time, he had decided that he needed to push that love aside a bit and perhaps explore other means of finding happiness... aka Randall.

Having been in that position, I know how heart rending and soul tearing giving up on someone that you love above all others can be. It leaves a scar that never truly heals and is easily made to bleed again and again. However, there does come a time when having your heart trounced over and over becomes so unbearable that you simply can't do it anymore!

Of course, that is me projecting my experiences onto Jack... and I could be totally off, but I can relate so deeply to Jack's pain and loss that I can't help but think that must have been how it was for him as well.  :-[

Hear... hear.   
I too have been there done that.  Just recently.  There does come a time, like I believe it did for
Jack, where you have to step back and decide , even if you both love each other, if YOU
are being fulfilled in that relationship.  It's going to be painful whether you go, or stay.
If you stay too long, bitterness sets in, because you know things are not going to change.
That was the point Jack got to.  20 years of disappointments can change a person.
 

[jesseanne21]

I don't think Jack was planning to end things with Ennis.  Also, in the story, Annie P. says after the fight, "nothing was ended, nothing resolved." 

Just the night before Jack told Ennis "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack stilled loved Ennis, no matter what.

Jack hit a nerve with Ennis and Ennis retaliated (typical lover's spat)...and, Ennis' jealousy about what he imaged Jack MIGHT be doing when they were not together showed itself.  Ennis didn't care if Jack was having an affair with a woman, but he was furious at the thought of Jack with another man!

I think Jack's line "if you don't never know the rest." was more like "even if you can't UNDERSTAND the rest."  Jack told Ennis, "I'm not you."  And, basically, I can't do what you do, this is not enough for me ("Never enough time, never enough")

[tpe]

I don't think Jack was planning to end things with Ennis.  Also, in the story, Annie P. says after the fight, "nothing was ended, nothing resolved." 

Just the night before Jack told Ennis "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Jack stilled loved Ennis, no matter what.

Jack hit a nerve with Ennis and Ennis retaliated (typical lover's spat)...and, Ennis' jealousy about what he imaged Jack MIGHT be doing when they were not together showed itself.  Ennis didn't care if Jack was having an affair with a woman, but he was furious at the thought of Jack with another man!

I think Jack's line "if you don't never know the rest." was more like "even if you can't UNDERSTAND the rest."  Jack told Ennis, "I'm not you."  And, basically, I can't do what you do, this is not enough for me ("Never enough time, never enough")

Welcome jesseanne21.

I don't think Jack would have found it possible to stop loving Ennis.  But I am more and more convinced over time that he did plan to move on at finding someone to have a shared life.

Jack's final plans make him an enigma.  A beautiful enigma -- full of seep sorrow and love.  And passion.

Jack's love sets you afire.

 

[welshwitch]

And now I look the ss uses that image of the coat-hanger, bent out of shape then forced back almost into the one it had had, which implies that the relationship had to some degree been restored. And Jack would never, could never, give up on Ennis, because he was what completed him, and that's I think why Jack went looking, though futilely, for someone else, but would always be ready to return to Ennis given the opportunity.

[tpe]

And now I look the ss uses that image of the coat-hanger, bent out of shape then forced back almost into the one it had had, which implies that the relationship had to some degree been restored. And Jack would never, could never, give up on Ennis, because he was what completed him, and that's I think why Jack went looking, though futilely, for someone else, but would always be ready to return to Ennis given the opportunity.

Yes, I do think that he would have dropped everything to be with Ennis -- even in that last year. 

He would have been there in November!  Is this an article of faith?

[Patriot1]

Yes, I do think that he would have dropped everything to be with Ennis -- even in that last year. 

He would have been there in November!  Is this an article of faith?

I think Jack had already taken up with Randall.  If what you say is true, then Jack would have been cheating on Randall just as he had cheated on Lureen.

[tpe]

Yes, I do think that he would have dropped everything to be with Ennis -- even in that last year. 

He would have been there in November!  Is this an article of faith?

I think Jack had already taken up with Randall.  If what you say is true, then Jack would have been cheating on Randall just as he had cheated on Lureen.

Indeed Patriot1, it would be so. 

I would like to think that he cheats to love as much as he cheats in love.

[Valandil Eluch]

i agree with TPE and Patriot

[shieldmaid]

I would like to think that he cheats to love as much as he cheats in love.

I agree, tpe.  It's a heartbreaking but true parallel.

[welshwitch]

Jack wouldn't see it as cheating. He didn't love Randall, and I don't think he loved Lureen or she him. He loved Ennis, so if he could be with Ennis, he would. How can you resist love?

[tpe]

Jack wouldn't see it as cheating. He didn't love Randall, and I don't think he loved Lureen or she him. He loved Ennis, so if he could be with Ennis, he would. How can you resist love?

I do think we all agree that Ennis is Jack's true love (tiresome or trite as the phrase may be).  I think it cruel for me to say this, but Jack was always left with "second best" as far as choices were concerned.  This is why I find him so sympathetic.  How many times in our own lives do we find ourselves dealing with compromises that never bring us the comfort of fulfillment, the sense of completeness...

[MississaugaRed]

Jack wouldn't see it as cheating. He didn't love Randall, and I don't think he loved Lureen or she him. He loved Ennis, so if he could be with Ennis, he would. How can you resist love?

I do think we all agree that Ennis is Jack's true love (tiresome or trite as the phrase may be).  I think it cruel for me to say this, but Jack was always left with "second best" as far as choices were concerned.  This is why I find him so sympathetic.  How many times in our own lives do we find ourselves dealing with compromises that never bring us the comfort of fulfillment, the sense of completeness...

 :\'(   

tpe, this strikes such a nerve; perhaps this is why so many of us are able to identify deeply with Jack.  Especially as we add to our years and experience the realities of life, the choices we're forced to make that shortchange our desires.  Lives half lived, what can be more heartbreaking? 

Ennis responds to Jack's outburst by telling him "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but Jack could say the same back to Ennis.  Jack's life only half lived when he could SEE his dream, practically taste it, almost (so very close) touch it ... but ... always just out of reach.  All this is part of the "rest" Jack can't begin to give form to with mere words.

[tpe]

:\'(   

tpe, this strikes such a nerve; perhaps this is why so many of us are able to identify deeply with Jack.  Especially as we add to our years and experience the realities of life, the choices we're forced to make that shortchange our desires.  Lives half lived, what can be more heartbreaking? 

Ennis responds to Jack's outburst by telling him "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but Jack could say the same back to Ennis.  Jack's life only half lived when he could SEE his dream, practically taste it, almost (so very close) touch it ... but ... always just out of reach.  All this is part of the "rest" Jack can't begin to give form to with mere words.

MississaugaRed, I myself am not ashamed to admit that I have lived life half-way many times in the past.  And yes, it is not out of keeping to admit that I sense I have not learned fully from experience.  But that is the beauty of life, no?  The ability to repeat one's mistakes and live the consequences of other people's wrong choices.  This is so achingly human.  I am glad for every mistake that informs me that I truly live.

 

[karen1129]

:\'(   

tpe, this strikes such a nerve; perhaps this is why so many of us are able to identify deeply with Jack.  Especially as we add to our years and experience the realities of life, the choices we're forced to make that shortchange our desires.  Lives half lived, what can be more heartbreaking? 

Ennis responds to Jack's outburst by telling him "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but Jack could say the same back to Ennis.  Jack's life only half lived when he could SEE his dream, practically taste it, almost (so very close) touch it ... but ... always just out of reach.  All this is part of the "rest" Jack can't begin to give form to with mere words.

MississaugaRed, I myself am not ashamed to admit that I have lived life half-way many times in the past.  And yes, it is not out of keeping to admit that I sense I have not learned fully from experience.  But that is the beauty of life, no?  The ability to repeat one's mistakes and live the consequences of other people's wrong choices.  This is so achingly human.  I am glad for every mistake that informs me that I truly live.

 

You guys are good.  Hit the nail on the head. 
Jack would have done ANYTHING to have that sweet life with Ennis.  Poor Ennis was too repressed to ever let that happen.
I too have lived my life half-way many times, and it is so very hard to "settle".  There comes a time when you have to
move on for your own good.  Gotta tell ya...... I don't know how Jack did it for 20 years. 
 

[tpe]

You guys are good.  Hit the nail on the head. 
Jack would have done ANYTHING to have that sweet life with Ennis.  Poor Ennis was too repressed to ever let that happen.
I too have lived my life half-way many times, and it is so very hard to "settle".  There comes a time when you have to
move on for your own good.  Gotta tell ya...... I don't know how Jack did it for 20 years. 

Thank you, karen1129.  Sometimes, it is a comfort: not being able to know the rest.

We just move on.  But we try to remember.

[MississaugaRed]

You guys are good.  Hit the nail on the head. 
Jack would have done ANYTHING to have that sweet life with Ennis.  Poor Ennis was too repressed to ever let that happen.
I too have lived my life half-way many times, and it is so very hard to "settle".  There comes a time when you have to
move on for your own good.  Gotta tell ya...... I don't know how Jack did it for 20 years.  
 

Karen1129, this was the beauty and strength of Jack, as you say, that he counted his love worth the price of all the wounds it left on his soul.  I can't imagine living that for 20 years, either ... and then to still have the grace to offer Ennis comfort at the end, even after the bitter truths they both let fly.  Jack was the stuff of heroes, IMO.  As tpe's beautiful words suggests, he represents that which makes us achingly human.

[welshwitch]

Jack knew the rest, and knew Ennis, deep down in the fibres of his being - he knew what he was involved in. He also knew, I think, that it was a compromise, a life half-fulfilled, half-lived - but that was what he had. He could try to find physical satisfaction elsewhere, but no more than that. The older one gets, the more one sees the compromises one has made through life, and many of us have been involved in situations where, like Jack, there was no ideal solution because we were prisoners of someone else's choices. That's partly what gives the movie such a resonance.

[tpe]

Jack knew the rest, and knew Ennis, deep down in the fibres of his being - he knew what he was involved in. He also knew, I think, that it was a compromise, a life half-fulfilled, half-lived - but that was what he had. He could try to find physical satisfaction elsewhere, but no more than that. The older one gets, the more one sees the compromises one has made through life, and many of us have been involved in situations where, like Jack, there was no ideal solution because we were prisoners of someone else's choices. That's partly what gives the movie such a resonance.

welshwitch: you speak the truth.

[MississaugaRed]

Jack knew the rest, and knew Ennis, deep down in the fibres of his being - he knew what he was involved in. He also knew, I think, that it was a compromise, a life half-fulfilled, half-lived - but that was what he had. He could try to find physical satisfaction elsewhere, but no more than that. The older one gets, the more one sees the compromises one has made through life, and many of us have been involved in situations where, like Jack, there was no ideal solution because we were prisoners of someone else's choices. That's partly what gives the movie such a resonance.

welshwitch: you speak the truth.

Here, here!    Great observation on life, for us and them. 

Those who adapt, survive.  Those who learn to bend can endure the wind until it changes.

After reading your postings, welshwitch and tpe, it seems to me that in some way, though Jack died with his poor body broken there by the roadside, his spirit was even then resilient.  It was Ennis who was perhaps the more broken in the end, body intact but spirit horribly wounded; learning to bend only after Jack was taken from him - when he starts to understand "the rest".  May be completely off the mark with that, but you've both given me much to muse on ... as usual.  Thank you! 

[tpe]

Here, here!    Great observation on life, for us and them. 

Those who adapt, survive.  Those who learn to bend can endure the wind until it changes.

After reading your postings, welshwitch and tpe, it seems to me that in some way, though Jack died with his poor body broken there by the roadside, his spirit was even then resilient.  It was Ennis who was perhaps the more broken in the end, body intact but spirit horribly wounded; learning to bend only after Jack was taken from him - when he starts to understand "the rest".  May be completely off the mark with that, but you've both given me much to muse on ... as usual.  Thank you! 

MississaugaRed, I do think you are on the mark.  Ennis, in the end, is both saved and cursed by the love he shared with Jack.  He came in wounded, to be sure, but he let it fester for 20 years until it was too late to attain any semblance of a fix.

Jack's spirit may have been broken by Ennis's refusal to share a life with him, and he dies never fully knowing that Ennis did love him deeply.  This is his great tragedy.

For Ennis, it is ironic that, indeed, he will never know the rest.  At this point, it is no longer limited to the notion of Jack's infidelities.  It becomes an ironic commentary to Ennis never fully knowing the joy of love selflessly and wholeheartedly shared.  This is his great tragedy.

Indeed, he shall never know the rest.

[LuvJackNasty]

Jack knew the rest, and knew Ennis, deep down in the fibres of his being - he knew what he was involved in. He also knew, I think, that it was a compromise, a life half-fulfilled, half-lived - but that was what he had. He could try to find physical satisfaction elsewhere, but no more than that. The older one gets, the more one sees the compromises one has made through life, and many of us have been involved in situations where, like Jack, there was no ideal solution because we were prisoners of someone else's choices. That's partly what gives the movie such a resonance.

Beautifully said!

[LuvJackNasty]

Here, here!    Great observation on life, for us and them. 

Those who adapt, survive.  Those who learn to bend can endure the wind until it changes.

After reading your postings, welshwitch and tpe, it seems to me that in some way, though Jack died with his poor body broken there by the roadside, his spirit was even then resilient.  It was Ennis who was perhaps the more broken in the end, body intact but spirit horribly wounded; learning to bend only after Jack was taken from him - when he starts to understand "the rest".  May be completely off the mark with that, but you've both given me much to muse on ... as usual.  Thank you! 

MississaugaRed, I do think you are on the mark.  Ennis, in the end, is both saved and cursed by the love he shared with Jack.  He came in wounded, to be sure, but he let it fester for 20 years until it was too late to attain any semblance of a fix.

Jack's spirit may have been broken by Ennis's refusal to share a life with him, and he dies never fully knowing that Ennis did love him deeply.  This is his great tragedy.

For Ennis, it is ironic that, indeed, he will never know the rest.  At this point, it is no longer limited to the notion of Jack's infidelities.  It becomes an ironic commentary to Ennis never fully knowing the joy of love selflessly and wholeheartedly shared.  This is his great tragedy.

Indeed, he shall never know the rest.

Well said Miss-Red and TPE. Of course I am sitting here all teary again.  :\'(

[tpe]

Well said Miss-Red and TPE. Of course I am sitting here all teary again.  :\'(

We are one in tears.

Faced with this double tragedy, it is perhaps best that WE never know the rest...

[welshwitch]

Now I've gone off on to another track entirely, to the idea of rest in the sense of death or peace, which even Jack's ashes didn't find and which I don;t think ennis's will either. No-one to ask for them to be granted eternal rest, and no-one to sing a requiem.

[tpe]

Now I've gone off on to another track entirely, to the idea of rest in the sense of death or peace, which even Jack's ashes didn't find and which I don;t think ennis's will either. No-one to ask for them to be granted eternal rest, and no-one to sing a requiem.

Even in death they will be alone and apart.

The parting scene in the last meeting was the defining point.  It became irrevocable.  But for all that they never did come to know -- for all the rest that was never addressed in that one last separation that became forever -- I have come to believe that their love endured. 

It is their love that will bridge the great void.  All the rest shall melt away.

[welshwitch]

"Thaw, and resolve itself into a dew"?

Thomas, you're a romantic. You should have been a poet.

[tpe]

"Thaw, and resolve itself into a dew"?

Thomas, you're a romantic. You should have been a poet.

As in The Tale of Genji: life is but as fleeting as the morning dew.

welshwitch, perhaps I am simply hopeless.  I know you understand...