Topic: First Night In Tent

[manhattangirl]

I think the closeness of Ennis in a way made Jack reach over to him.  Remember the view of the empty space in the tent.  Neither of the made a move apparently to distance themselves any further then they wanted.  That in it self makes me wonder they must have unknowingly felt something for one another.  When Jack took Ennis's hand and brought it to him that was a lover's move.   When they held on to each other was passion coming to the surface. 

Ennis started to make love to Jack when he tried to constantly please him, going to him at various times to be near him.  Jack may have open the door all the way, but Ennis did unlock it for him.   JMO

[babytammy7]

Ennis started to make love to Jack when he tried to constantly please him, going to him at various times to be near him.  Jack may have open the door all the way, but Ennis did unlock it for him.   

That's beautiful, MG!!!    I agree. 

[aintfoolin]

Do you think Ennis realized what those feelings were, before that night? Yes, he had deep feelings for Jack that went beyond friendship, he felt so happy just being with him, "felt he could paw the white out of the moon"... but did he actually realize that he was sexually attracted to Jack? Did he dare admit that to himself?

 I feel that though subtle, the feelings of sexual attraction were there, but Ennis would not allow himself to admit  that that's what it was , sort of like unconciously ,though the possibility that he was sexually attracted kept nagging him. He  tried to put the thoughts out of his mind imo. The fact that at some point he made a decision not to go up to the sheep, opting to stay in camp with Jack  that night and get wasted in itself was a signal  among others to Jack that Ennis  felt a need to be close to him and Jack was not going to discourage or remind Ennis  that it was time to go back to the sheep as the sun set. I also feel that Ennis 's decision to sleep *outside*  the tent until Jack called him in was not so much a sign of "modesty" on Ennis's part, but a distrust of his own feelings concerning Jack. Those feelings along with a little "liquid courage" in him found him outright flirting with Jack with the "opportunity" statement. " Speak for yourself , you may be a sinner, but I've yet to have the opportunity" to me says * I want the opportunity ...with you* .  Being Ennis, he was'nt gonna blurt it out loud, but  I don't think he was thinking of Alma when he said this   The way he looks at Jack at times during this whole scene ...well imo it's unmistakable what he meant and who he wanted the "opportunity" with.  I think Jack read it that way. My take.

[keren_b]

I think the closeness of Ennis in a way made Jack reach over to him.  Remember the view of the empty space in the tent.  Neither of the made a move apparently to distance themselves any further then they wanted.  That in it self makes me wonder they must have unknowingly felt something for one another.  When Jack took Ennis's hand and brought it to him that was a lover's move.   When they held on to each other was passion coming to the surface. 

Ennis started to make love to Jack when he tried to constantly please him, going to him at various times to be near him.  Jack may have open the door all the way, but Ennis did unlock it for him.   JMO

I feel that though subtle, the feelings of sexual attraction were there, but Ennis would not allow himself to admit  that that's what it was , sort of like unconciously ,though the possibility that he was sexually attracted kept nagging him. He  tried to put the thoughts out of his mind imo. The fact that at some point he made a decision not to go up to the sheep, opting to stay in camp with Jack  that night and get wasted in itself was a signal  among others to Jack that Ennis  felt a need to be close to him and Jack was not going to discourage or remind Ennis  that it was time to go back to the sheep as the sun set. I also feel that Ennis 's decision to sleep *outside*  the tent until Jack called him in was not so much a sign of "modesty" on Ennis's part, but a distrust of his own feelings concerning Jack. Those feelings along with a little "liquid courage" in him found him outright flirting with Jack with the "opportunity" statement. " Speak for yourself , you may be a sinner, but I've yet to have the opportunity" to me says * I want the opportunity ...with you* .  Being Ennis, he was'nt gonna blurt it out loud, but  I don't think he was thinking of Alma when he said this   The way he looks at Jack at times during this whole scene ...well imo it's unmistakable what he meant and who he wanted the "opportunity" with.  I think Jack read it that way. My take.

These posts are just fascinating. It's amazing how after all this time it still gives me new stuff to think about. Thank you.

[tpe]

So you're saying actually that when Jack took Ennis's hand and put it on himself, he had reason to believe that Ennis wouldn't hit him but would actually go along with it. It also hints that Jack was aware of what he was doing there, and made a conscious decision. Am I right?

I think that Jack at that point probably wasn't thinking anymore about what Ennis would think -- because of his own need.  I do think that it was very much a conscious decision on Jack's part.

As for Ennis, I think Jack pretty much figured out that Ennis was never going to make the first move.  When I say this, I assume implicitly that Jack thought that Ennis did feel the same way about things, but was too scared to articulate any of his own desires.

[aintfoolin]

I agree totally with this.

 When Jack removed his coat, Ennis asks "what are you doing ?" knowing by now good and well what Jack is "doing". He could've easily left or showed contempt in some way. he did'nt. I don't think Ennis expected what happened to happen the way it did, or even when it did, but I can't help but feel he wanted this to happen. (Jack making a  first move on him.). Before long he clung onto Jack with both hands and did'nt let go. A signal to Jack that Ennis was willing to participate. The urgency was mutual.

[tpe]

I agree totally with this.

 When Jack removed his coat, Ennis asks "what are you doing ?" knowing by now good and well what Jack is "doing". He could've easily left or showed contempt in some way. he did'nt. I don't think Ennis expected what happened to happen the way it did, or even when it did, but I can't help but feel he wanted this to happen. (Jack making a  first move on him.). Before long he clung onto Jack with both hands and did'nt let go. A signal to Jack that Ennis was willing to participate. The urgency was mutual.

Yes, "what are you doing" sounded pretty remote and disembodied -- rhetorical is the word, as if Ennis was asking a question whose answer he very well knew.  It was a rhetorical question...

[keren_b]

Absolutely. In fact, When they jumped up, Jack whispered "come on, come on" and grabbed Ennis and took his hand and put it on himself again... you can't see it completely but it's quite obvious when you look at that scene, where his arm is going. And this time Ennis didn't pull back his hand. And then Jack took off his coat, and only then Ennis mumbled "what are you doing?" So yeah, he knew exactly what Jack was doing. But something else that occured to me, as far as Ennis knew, maybe Jack just wanted to jerk off together, bring each other off. He didn't tell Ennis what he wanted him to do - it was Ennis who chose to go all the way and have a full sexual intercourse.

[rimasworld]

Absolutely. In fact, When they jumped up, Jack whispered "come on, come on" and grabbed Ennis and took his hand and put it on himself again... you can't see it completely but it's quite obvious when you look at that scene, where his arm is going. And this time Ennis didn't pull back his hand. And then Jack took off his coat, and only then Ennis mumbled "what are you doing?" So yeah, he knew exactly what Jack was doing. But something else that occured to me, as far as Ennis knew, maybe Jack just wanted to jerk off together, bring each other off. He didn't tell Ennis what he wanted him to do - it was Ennis who chose to go all the way and have a full sexual intercourse.

yeah Ennis was a virgin but he sure wasn't naive 

[atalley]

I agree, and also will add that his slurred speech goes along with being drunk and half asleep.

[tpe]

Absolutely. In fact, When they jumped up, Jack whispered "come on, come on" and grabbed Ennis and took his hand and put it on himself again... you can't see it completely but it's quite obvious when you look at that scene, where his arm is going. And this time Ennis didn't pull back his hand. And then Jack took off his coat, and only then Ennis mumbled "what are you doing?" So yeah, he knew exactly what Jack was doing. But something else that occured to me, as far as Ennis knew, maybe Jack just wanted to jerk off together, bring each other off. He didn't tell Ennis what he wanted him to do - it was Ennis who chose to go all the way and have a full sexual intercourse.

Beautifully said, keren.  There was clearly a strong element of uncertainly in Ennis, and Jack detected this almost immediately.  The fact that he didn't answer Ennis's question also suggests that Jack knew that it didn't require answering.

Your comment about autoeroticism is intriguing.   Perhaps initially?  But as things progressed, it would seem that Jack was striving for a kiss.  For some reason, I recall the "no kissing" rule among many rent boys (and, interestingly enough, an older generation of porn stars) -- they would be willing to do many things, but kissing was out of the question.  Kissing was deemed an especially intimate act.  For them (other than the usual arguments involving hygiene), a kiss humanizes the relationship, and indicates that there was more to this than just sensual gratification.

[keren_b]

Your comment about autoeroticism is intriguing.   Perhaps initially?  But as things progressed, it would seem that Jack was striving for a kiss.  For some reason, I recall the "no kissing" rule among many rent boys (and, interestingly enough, an older generation of porn stars) -- they would be willing to do many things, but kissing was out of the question.  Kissing was deemed an especially intimate act.  For them (other than the usual arguments involving hygiene), a kiss humanizes the relationship, and indicates that there was more to this than just sensual gratification.

Exactly Thomas! That's what made the huge difference between FNIT and SNIT - the kissing, the tenderness. It also looked to me that Jack was going for a kiss is FNIT, and that was when Ennis resisted - sex he could deal with, but not kissing. In FNIT we see them having sex, in SNIT we "only" see them kissing (we know what followed but we can only see the kissing), and yet what happened between them at SNIT was so much more profound. The point when Ennis was willing to go beyond just having sex, and was actually ready to make love.

A little OT but since SNIT wasn't in the short story, and there wasn't any mention of kissing while they were on the mountain, do you think that the reunion was actually their first kiss?

[babytammy7]

Love your whole post Keren. It's beautiful and I agree. 

About kissing, I have to say that I read somewhere that a lot of brokies thought that the reunion kiss was their first kiss, based on that SS line (..then, and as easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together...) that maybe suggests that it, that first kiss, was a easy natural thing to do even for the first time, even after 4 years, because of their love. Some people thinks that it's powerful that it's the first kiss, just then after all that time, because it shows how strong and deep their love was that after all that time separated and all those times they had only sex up in BBM, they now kiss each other without even think a minute about it, kiss each other like if they realize suddenly that it is more than sexual attraction, that they need something else, that it is love?

I'm glad that Ang filmed SNIT because I sure love it so so much, and I adore that they kissed then for the first time. 

[tpe]

Exactly Thomas! That's what made the huge difference between FNIT and SNIT - the kissing, the tenderness. It also looked to me that Jack was going for a kiss is FNIT, and that was when Ennis resisted - sex he could deal with, but not kissing. In FNIT we see them having sex, in SNIT we "only" see them kissing (we know what followed but we can only see the kissing), and yet what happened between them at SNIT was so much more profound. The point when Ennis was willing to go beyond just having sex, and was actually ready to make love.

A little OT but since SNIT wasn't in the short story, and there wasn't any mention of kissing while they were on the mountain, do you think that the reunion was actually their first kiss?

Love your whole post Keren. It's beautiful and I agree. 

About kissing, I have to say that I read somewhere that a lot of brokies thought that the reunion kiss was their first kiss, based on that SS line (..then, and as easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together...) that maybe suggests that it, that first kiss, was a easy natural thing to do even for the first time, even after 4 years, because of their love. Some people thinks that it's powerful that it's the first kiss, just then after all that time, because it shows how strong and deep their love was that after all that time separated and all those times they had only sex up in BBM, they now kiss each other without even think a minute about it, kiss each other like if they realize suddenly that it is more than sexual attraction, that they need something else, that it is love?

I'm glad that Ang filmed SNIT because I sure love it so so much, and I adore that they kissed then for the first time. 

Somehow, I feel that they must have kiseed later on in the Mountain that summer.  I think SNIT was an extrapolation of this feeling, as far as Ang Lee was concerned.  But I also find the possibility of the Reunion being the first kiss quite intriguing,  It would partly explain the intensity of it all. There is not explicit mention of kissing in the episodes on the Mountain, if I recall correctly.  Was this deliberate, or was the intimacy that would have led to kissing implied even while they were up on BBM?  Somehow, I feel that they had already kissed up on BBM...

[rimasworld]

Somehow, I feel that they must have kiseed later on in the Mountain that summer.  I think SNIT was an extrapolation of this feeling, as far as Ang Lee was concerned.  But I also find the possibility of the Reunion being the first kiss quite intriguing,  It would partly explain the intensity of it all. There is not explicit mention of kissing in the episodes on the Mountain, if I recall correctly.  Was this deliberate, or was the intimacy that would have led to kissing implied even while they were up on BBM?  Somehow, I feel that they had already kissed up on BBM...

There were a lot of emotions going on up there on Brokeback so they probably kissed frequently since their relationship was more than just sex. I think the reunion kiss was so passionate and forceful because they hadn't seen or heard from each other for so long and they both still felt the same way about each other. They just couldn't contain themselves.. all the joy, longing, feeling of being whole again. 

[manhattangirl]

I've thought the scene where Aguirre was spying on them when they were wrestling showed that there was moment that they could have kissed when both were on the ground, they thought they were alone, they were being intimate and tender towards each other.  When Aguirre made a point of showing Jack his binoculars, I couldn't help but feel Jack knew then they were outed, but yet he looked protectively towards Ennis's direction, as if to say to himself he couldn't let Ennis know.

The reunion kiss just showed how natural their passion, need and love was.  How even after four years nothing changed, that need was still there.  One of the things, to me anyway, Ennis thought had to be kept in check.

JMO.

[Ranchand1]

     This talkin about the kissing...

     That head nuzzel Ennis gives Jack just at the end.  Well that makes my heart go into a gallop.

     When I was young I had someone tell me not to kiss em as there hand was going down my pants.  I was floored. 

    If your hand is in my pants I'm a kissin ya or I'm a kickin your ass.

    Your discussing made me remember.  Still makes me go...huh?

    To me kissing IS intimate.  But a hand down the pants isn't?

     Perhaps I'm a prude...dam it.

     "Gun's goin off!"

[rimasworld]

     This talkin about the kissing...

     That head nuzzel Ennis gives Jack just at the end.  Well that makes my heart go into a gallop.

     When I was young I had someone tell me not to kiss em as there hand was going down my pants.  I was floored. 

    If your hand is in my pants I'm a kissin ya or I'm a kickin your ass.

    Your discussing made me remember.  Still makes me go...huh?

    To me kissing IS intimate.  But a hand down the pants isn't?

     Perhaps I'm a prude...dam it.

     "Gun's goin off!"

Oh yeah I love those nuzzels both guys give each other..so sexy! The whole head touching ritual they have..wow!

[jackster]

     This talkin about the kissing...
     That head nuzzel Ennis gives Jack just at the end.  Well that makes my heart go into a gallop.

Same here RH, giddyup. I think whut we see here is pure Heath. He does virtually the same movement in the reunion scene, getting his face right in there with Jack, rubbin' it around, damn sexy!. Heath's been quoted about how important scent was to him, he does this action almost involuntarily several times, with his own shirt from the closet, with Alma Jr's sweater, and of course most dramatically with "the shirts" in Jack's closet at Lighting Flat.

"He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack"

I think this language really spoke to Heath, he understood exactly what Ennis desperately wanted here and, like so many other subtle character traits, was able to translate this into Ennis's entire being. Genius. JMHO

[manhattangirl]

The nose nuzzle just shows me that Ennis did have deep intense feelings when it came to Jack, and he wasn't afraid to show him.   One of the reasons I think Jack stuck it out for so long moments like that, Ennis may have pulled in the reins at the idea of living with Jack, but no way in hell he was giving up what he found that FNIT.

JMO.

[tpe]

There were a lot of emotions going on up there on Brokeback so they probably kissed frequently since their relationship was more than just sex. I think the reunion kiss was so passionate and forceful because they hadn't seen or heard from each other for so long and they both still felt the same way about each other. They just couldn't contain themselves.. all the joy, longing, feeling of being whole again. 

The FNIT is such a marked contrast with the Reunion scene, no?   In a way, both are types of "explosions".

[tpe]

    To me kissing IS intimate.  But a hand down the pants isn't?

     Perhaps I'm a prude...dam it.

     "Gun's goin off!"

It depends on the context. 

Can one argue that Jack guiding Ennis's hand to himself in FNIT was an attempted act of intimacy, or was it just an attempt of release from physical passion/need?

[Ranchand1]

     I have understood many men, in general, go for the one night stands.  The drinkin and plain loneliness played a part here.  But I guess bein a dreamer I always think there had to be some spark between em already. I guess I dont want to believe it could have been just sex.  I admit there is the possibility.
I have to think the wanting/needing of that release is because of the build up of what is already there.

     Otherwise no work would ever get done and wed all be in the streets humpin the first thing that moved, regardless?

    I have to admit I am/want to be naive.

    "balls as big as apples"
     

[rimasworld]

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I wonder sometimes if Ennis was wringing it out thinking about Jack before FNIT even happened. There were lots of sparks flying around those two for quite some time even if most were kind of subtle.

[sportstalk23]

I've thought the scene where Aguirre was spying on them when they were wrestling showed that there was moment that they could have kissed when both were on the ground, they thought they were alone, they were being intimate and tender towards each other.  When Aguirre made a point of showing Jack his binoculars, I couldn't help but feel Jack knew then they were outed, but yet he looked protectively towards Ennis's direction, as if to say to himself he couldn't let Ennis know.

The reunion kiss just showed how natural their passion, need and love was.  How even after four years nothing changed, that need was still there.  One of the things, to me anyway, Ennis thought had to be kept in check.

JMO.

me too mahattan i thought all that play wrestling and Ennis covering their faces with the hat could have been a good time to share a kiss frankly they could have made that scene a lil longer although sluggo aguirre spied on them  and, i thought too aguirre let it be known to Jack he knew what was going on between them especially when he rode up to inform Jack about the uncle, he looked towards Ennis during that convo and it seemed to me Jack got his drift. rimasworld i'm with you on the sparks thing it was quite obvious early on i believe that Ennis maybe didnt know what those feelings were that he had for Jack, but Jack understood his feelings right away, which made him act accordingly he knew when to make a move and when to pull back. The night in the tent he could hold back no more, as who the hell knows if he would have gotten that close to Ennis again, since that was the first time they shared that tent

[tpe]

     I have understood many men, in general, go for the one night stands.  The drinkin and plain loneliness played a part here.  But I guess bein a dreamer I always think there had to be some spark between em already. I guess I dont want to believe it could have been just sex.  I admit there is the possibility.
I have to think the wanting/needing of that release is because of the build up of what is already there.

     Otherwise no work would ever get done and wed all be in the streets humpin the first thing that moved, regardless?

    I have to admit I am/want to be naive.

    "balls as big as apples"
     

Nothing particularly wrong with a "naive" stance, especially qhen it comes to the subject at hand.

I do tend to think that although people make casual connections just to have a good time, I think it also reveals a deeper need that even they are perhaps unwilling to admit. 

In the case of Jack and the FNIT, perhaps he reached out for Ennis's hand in spite of himself.  It is as if he did this involuntarily, as a reaction to a deeper need to connect...

[tpe]

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I wonder sometimes if Ennis was wringing it out thinking about Jack before FNIT even happened. There were lots of sparks flying around those two for quite some time even if most were kind of subtle.

Hard to say, although the explosiveness of the release in FNIT would seem to suggest that he repressed perhaps even this urge...

[tpe]

me too mahattan i thought all that play wrestling and Ennis covering their faces with the hat could have been a good time to share a kiss frankly they could have made that scene a lil longer although sluggo aguirre spied on them  and, i thought too aguirre let it be known to Jack he knew what was going on between them especially when he rode up to inform Jack about the uncle, he looked towards Ennis during that convo and it seemed to me Jack got his drift. rimasworld i'm with you on the sparks thing it was quite obvious early on i believe that Ennis maybe didnt know what those feelings were that he had for Jack, but Jack understood his feelings right away, which made him act accordingly he knew when to make a move and when to pull back. The night in the tent he could hold back no more, as who the hell knows if he would have gotten that close to Ennis again, since that was the first time they shared that tent

I agree that Jack was perhaps mindful of the opportunity -- that perhaps it would be difficult to get both of them in the same tent another time, and that it was now or never...

As I had said elsewhere, I believe that Jack, in the scenes before FNIT, was trying hard to create situations when BOTH of them would be in camp at the same time.  The scene where they exchange responsibilities is telling.  When Ennis offers to exchange places with him up the Mountain, Jack says (I paraphrase here): "that's not the point, the point is that BOTH of us should be in the camp."

[aintfoolin]

 I agree, and the irony of it all is that as much as Jack wanted them both in camp, he never was the one who just decided to take the night off, but it was Ennis, who'd been hearing Jack bitch about the rules who did it first, yes *afraid to take a chance*, proper, Ennis Del Mar made a rebellious move. Part longing for Jack's company for himself and another gesture on his part to please Jack. He was listening.   

[tpe]

I agree, and the irony of it all is that as much as Jack wanted them both in camp, he never was the one who just decided to take the night off, but it was Ennis, who'd been hearing Jack bitch about the rules who did it first, yes *afraid to take a chance*, proper, Ennis Del Mar made a rebellious move. Part longing for Jack's company for himself and another gesture on his part to please Jack. He was listening.   

Very true.  But I think Ennis was also looking for an opening, even if he was very coy even with himself about seizing the moment.  We should note that it was Jack who made the definitive move (by taking hold of Ennis's hand in FNIT) -- but with Ennis acquiesing, the way was clear...