Topic: First Night In Tent

[tpe]

I wonder what Jack was actually expecting from Ennis that morning?  I somehow sense a kind of anxiousness, but not something that one would call fear.  I think there is a big difference...  But I would think that Jack wasn't exactly sure how Ennis was going to react.  So his going out to say goodbye makes things even more interesting -- in that he was perhaps deliberately trying to get a reaction or a reading of Ennis's feelings, whichever way it was oriented.

[jackster]

thomas

I've always thought that this was another marvel of how clever Proulx, McMurtry, and Ossana are. Jack's the instigator, but then in a surprising reversal, he's the one that gets, ahem, "imposed" upon (even if willingly). If FNIT had been more one sided, one man doing the instigating and forcing the action, then there would be much more reason for one or the other of the men to feel either hostile or embarrassed towards the other. As it was, the "blame" or reward is seemingly equally divided. As Jack instigated the action, maybe he did feel a little guilty, but he was also concerned that Ennis might feel even more guilt for being so forceful and making Jack submissive. Jack's "See you for supper " comment is just a way to assure Ennis (as he does again SNIT) that it's alright. JMHO

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Interesting perspective Jackster! 

[tpe]

thomas

I've always thought that this was another marvel of how clever Proulx, McMurtry, and Ossana are. Jack's the instigator, but then in a surprising reversal, he's the one that gets, ahem, "imposed" upon (even if willingly). If FNIT had been more one sided, one man doing the instigating and forcing the action, then there would be much more reason for one or the other of the men to feel either hostile or embarrassed towards the other. As it was, the "blame" or reward is seemingly equally divided. As Jack instigated the action, maybe he did feel a little guilty, but he was also concerned that Ennis might feel even more guilt for being so forceful and making Jack submissive. Jack's "See you for supper " comment is just a way to assure Ennis (as he does again SNIT) that it's alright. JMHO

As CSC has said, theis is a VERY good point, indeed! It certainly gace Jack some courage to know that at least as far as FNIT was concerned, the desire was equally strong on the other end. 

And your comment about the "see you for supper" comment makes perfect sense.  It was certainly a way to break a bit of the tension, if not awkwardness of the moment.

[myprivatejack]

thomas

I've always thought that this was another marvel of how clever Proulx, McMurtry, and Ossana are. Jack's the instigator, but then in a surprising reversal, he's the one that gets, ahem, "imposed" upon (even if willingly). If FNIT had been more one sided, one man doing the instigating and forcing the action, then there would be much more reason for one or the other of the men to feel either hostile or embarrassed towards the other. As it was, the "blame" or reward is seemingly equally divided. As Jack instigated the action, maybe he did feel a little guilty, but he was also concerned that Ennis might feel even more guilt for being so forceful and making Jack submissive. Jack's "See you for supper " comment is just a way to assure Ennis (as he does again SNIT) that it's alright. JMHO

Yes,a very interesting point of view,Jackster ¡.In this way,the feeling of guilt remains a little more divided and equilibrating between the both of them; in Jack case,for having been the instigator who woke up a desire that was there,only waiting for someone to do it.And in Ennis case,because he had token the initiative,developing in a whole what has been only a "sketch",and,moreover,for having made Jack feeling a little dominated and submissive in the relationship.
Nevertheless,someone has said that this last one surely didn't want to arrive so far away that night,that maybe he felt even surprised and overflowed by Ennis impetus...I disagree partially;Jack clearly had more experience in sex matters,at the point that maybe Ennis wasn't his first man in the complete sense of the word.He knew,consequently,how to play seduction game much better than a shy and afraid of his own feelings and reactions country boy.So,from the very moment he took Ennis hand he knew for sure that he was going to play that game until the end,no matter what this end was and developed.(Speaking clearly,he knew for sure that he was going to f*** or being f***ed...).A rather different thing is that he thought that there was going to be more foreplay,more kisses and caresses that,contradictorily,Ennis wasn't willing to give so easily; IMO,we see in a moment of this scene,how Jack seems to want kissing Ennis,and this one rejects it.maybe because it's too much intimacy for it-or,let's say,intimacy in another greater and deeper sense than simply f*** someone).In this sense,then,I don't think that Jack got surprised for what happenned,but only a little confused before Ennis so strong and direct reaction.JMHO.

[vedrana]

Yes,a very interesting point of view,Jackster ¡.In this way,the feeling of guilt remains a little more divided and equilibrating between the both of them; in Jack case,for having been the instigator who woke up a desire that was there,only waiting for someone to do it.And in Ennis case,because he had token the initiative,developing in a whole what has been only a "sketch",and,moreover,for having made Jack feeling a little dominated and submissive in the relationship.
Nevertheless,someone has said that this last one surely didn't want to arrive so far away that night,that maybe he felt even surprised and overflowed by Ennis impetus...I disagree partially;Jack clearly had more experience in sex matters,at the point that maybe Ennis wasn't his first man in the complete sense of the word.He knew,consequently,how to play seduction game much better than a shy and afraid of his own feelings and reactions country boy.So,from the very moment he took Ennis hand he knew for sure that he was going to play that game until the end,no matter what this end was and developed.(Speaking clearly,he knew for sure that he was going to f*** or being f***ed...).A rather different thing is that he thought that there was going to be more foreplay,more kisses and caresses that,contradictorily,Ennis wasn't willing to give so easily; IMO,we see in a moment of this scene,how Jack seems to want kissing Ennis,and this one rejects it.maybe because it's too much intimacy for it-or,let's say,intimacy in another greater and deeper sense than simply f*** someone).In this sense,then,I don't think that Jack got surprised for what happenned,but only a little confused before Ennis so strong and direct reaction.JMHO.

I think that we can only suspect Jack's previous experience. It was cunningly put in the movie as an innuendo, but not as a fact. I could easily imagine that Jack had no previous sexual experience with man (or with a woman, but less important here) and that he maybe simply knew more about it - theoretically. He was more open to the world than Ennis, and therefore more open to the feelings that both of them were developing. and he wanted to explore the possibilities.

Did he know that he was going to get some that night? Also tough! Hm... the place where he put Ennis's hand indicates that he wanted to go to the end... to the last step of joy. Was he sure about the outcome? Hardly.

[aintfoolin]

 I don't feel Jack knew how far it would go. He obviously hoped for or expected  something  involving an act of physical intimacy with Ennis but  to what degree? Mutual touching?, kisses? I don't think he knew to what end his initial touch would take them and do not feel he really cared. I think he was on a mission of recognition and acknowledgement of feelings. An expression of the way they felt. MO.

[tpe]

That leads me to think: when Jack grabbed Ennis's hand, did he know that his action would most likely have awakened Ennis?  Did he do this, expecting Ennis to reciprocate, or did he do this almost subconsciously -- almost out of "desperation"?

[jackster]

Lot’s a questions here, huh. In watchin’ this scene about a million times, one thing becomes really glaring – how did Jack know that Ennis’s hand was going to be where it was when he reached out for it? We first see Jack, lying on his left side (facing away from Ennis) under the bedroll. He awakens, pushes back the bedroll (still facing away) and begins reaching out with his right hand behind him. Remarkably, his hand lands virtually spot on Ennis’s right hand that just happens to be lying outside the bedroll. He grabs it and  - away we go. How did Jack know the geography of all this in his sleep with his back to Ennis in the dark? Try it sometime. Why didn’t he think that Ennis would (like Jack) have his hands under the bedroll for warmth and head in that direction? Of course that wouldn’t have worked very well on camera, and these guys again make it all look so believable partly by the effective and engrossing fast action that immediately follows (the tussle, grabbing, head butting, and caressing).

I’d agree with loreen here about Jack’s “priors” too. Like you say, so much in the film is “cunningly put as innuendo” so everyone can draw and develop their own conclusions based on personal experience and desires. A terrific way to make individuals a part of the experience - if you can pull it off, and Ang certainly did. My personal feeling is Jack was just lookin’ for some “buddy fun” of a more limited nature, and, as Ennis had admitted to not yet “having the opportunity”, Jack was going use this circumstance to provide him an opportunity. Not calculating that Ennis (who had never driven before  ) would necessarily go “full throttle”. Think he quickly realized that Ennis was like a stick of dynamite, once lit you couldn’t put it out.

[aintfoolin]

It seems to me  as if Ennis did'nt trust his own  feelings insisting on sleeping outside in the icey cold when he could've taken Jack's offer to sleep in the tent in the first place. Why sleep outside if his feelings  toward Jack were simply of a  platonic nature, just two two good "buddies" bedding down for the night? Maybe his feared Jack would know if he became aroused sleeping in such close quarters?

I cannot say for sure, but Jack seemed to be in the middle of a "nice dream" when he reached for Ennis's hand. He had a "smirky" smile on his face. He may have been dreaming about something that may have been in his sub-concious mind for awhile and just decided to take advantage of the nearness of Ennis and turn dreams into reality. 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

It seems to me  as if Ennis did'nt trust his own  feelings insisting on sleeping outside in the icey cold when he could've taken Jack's offer to sleep in the tent in the first place. Why sleep outside if his feelings  toward Jack were simply of a  platonic nature, just two two good "buddies" bedding down for the night? Maybe his feared Jack would know if he became aroused sleeping in such close quarters? 

I can't say for sure that Ennis understood his feeling toward Jack at that point.  Ennis seemed to be someone who identified as straight.  If he felt that he liked Jack more than he should have then choosing to sleep outside the tent made perfect sense to him.  For all we know sleeping in close quarters with any buddy may have been new and a very uncomfortable thought for Ennis.

[manhattangirl]

To me this shows Ennis, though unknown to him,   the feelings he had for  him.  Sleeping with other men could not been new to Ennis,  he went from job to job with his brother,  they live in bunk houses with other men,  I'm sure he didn't ask for his own room with a bath.   But sleeping outside the tent was an unrealized attraction he had for Jack he wanted to be near him, but not too close,  until he was told to "get in here".   He wasn't making no move towards Jack until Jack took his hand. The versatility of their relationship was hinted at the snit. 

[tpe]

Very thoughtful comments here.

Yes, I did notice how Jack seemed to have just reached out for Ennis hand, as if he knew where it was before-hand.  I have always been intrigued by this detail.  And the comment about Jack having something like a good dream is close to what I had also surmised about this.

As for Ennis no wanting to share the tent with Jack initially, I must admit that I did assume that he did this as a way to gurard himself againt "possibilities".  In short, I also interpreteted this in such a way that Ennis probably didn't trust himself or even Jack if they slept in close physical proximity with each other...

[myprivatejack]

Very thoughtful comments here.

Yes, I did notice how Jack seemed to have just reached out for Ennis hand, as if he knew where it was before-hand.  I have always been intrigued by this detail.  And the comment about Jack having something like a good dream is close to what I had also surmised about this.

As for Ennis no wanting to share the tent with Jack initially, I must admit that I did assume that he did this as a way to gurard himself againt "possibilities".  In short, I also interpreteted this in such a way that Ennis probably didn't trust himself or even Jack if they slept in close physical proximity with each other...

I have always thought that Ennis was beginning that night his fight between his feelings and his fears,because he felt something deeper for Jack.He,who was running away from a dirty image of homosexuality his father has put into him,was at the edge of "falling" in it thanks to a boyish,outgoing and charming blue-eyed cowboy...Too much for him ¡ He wished it but feared it in a whole.
So,he didn't put an end to their reunion,knowing what his duties were,but knowing also that,if he stayed,something could happen between the both of them.He never put a trunk in the bonfire to avoid cold so he ended going under the tent; but at the same time,he was suffering from cold precisely for not going there ¡  Of course,I also guess he wasn't sure of himself and his "endurance" if both were sleeping so close.The insecurity of this one who wishes and rejects something.

[matt913]

Halito, all. FNIT...as I was watching the movie I knew something was going to happen sooner or later, just from what I had heard about it. But the FNIT, when things DID start happening, I said to my Mom, "Jack's getting ready to do somethin' here", and he did. The whole scene made me recoil at first. I had expected something different I suppose. Love BBM, Hawaii (I could live there) and these forums.

C........

[vedrana]

Maybe Jack was too...

[matt913]

Halito. And I would say that is a double intendere...Jack knew something was going to happen TOO and Jack was also TOO overcome with excitement to wait! Love BBM, North Carolina (mountains and an ocean!) and these forums.

C........

[tpe]

Halito, all. FNIT...as I was watching the movie I knew something was going to happen sooner or later, just from what I had heard about it. But the FNIT, when things DID start happening, I said to my Mom, "Jack's getting ready to do somethin' here", and he did. The whole scene made me recoil at first. I had expected something different I suppose. Love BBM, Hawaii (I could live there) and these forums.

C........

It always comes as a surprise, even after watching it so many times!