Topic: How did Ennis express his love for Jack?

[Rønnaug]

Just wondering tho.... was that kiss love? or lust? or jst because he knew by then he didnt love Alma? I think it was love...just wondering

[NoReins]

Just wondering tho.... was that kiss love? or lust? or jst because he knew by then he didnt love Alma? I think it was love...just wondering

How about lust born out of love - the realisation of which had taken four years?

[tpe]

Just wondering tho.... was that kiss love? or lust? or jst because he knew by then he didnt love Alma? I think it was love...just wondering

I think it is love.  Eros is intrinsically part of this love, nonetheless.


In that pic, the kiss almost appears PAINFUL.  An excess of love, repressed for so long, is exceedingly painful...

[Valandil Eluch]

Just wondering tho.... was that kiss love? or lust? or jst because he knew by then he didn't love Alma? I think it was love...just wondering

Esme, that was not lust at all if that was lust then he would have never do the nuzzle to jack, he did it in a so romantic way that one can think that he didn't wanted to stop kissing jack.

Ennis showed Jack his love, on my point of view, in many ways switching with him to be the herder, shooting the elk, talking with him (yes talking if you notices he says that he didn't spoke more than that in a year so he opened himself with jack) when talked with Jack about the one shot thing, the SNIT (no explanations there) his morning games, his fight in which he was actually showing the anger of loosing him.  the reunion  kiss, his low paid job that he selected to quit them to be wtih jack and in all of their meetings and to some of you would sound weird but how he pushed him away, yes to me he was showing his love not in a very good way but he was trying to protect jack from being killed he was scared of loosing him so he did what he did.

Ennis love is actually showed in a non verbal language he expressed it physically and emotionally, no words were needed for him he just showed Jack his love with his actions but sometimes his actions were missinterpreted

[chameau]

Just wondering tho.... was that kiss love? or lust? or jst because he knew by then he didn't love Alma? I think it was love...just wondering

Esme, that was not lust at all if that was lust then he would have never do the nuzzle to jack, he did it in a so romantic way that one can think that he didn't wanted to stop kissing jack.

Ennis showed Jack his love, on my point of view, in many ways switching with him to be the herder, shooting the elk, talking with him (yes talking if you notices he says that he didn't spoke more than that in a year so he opened himself with jack) when talked with Jack about the one shot thing, the SNIT (no explanations there) his morning games, his fight in which he was actually showing the anger of loosing him.  the reunion  kiss, his low paid job that he selected to quit them to be wtih jack and in all of their meetings and to some of you would sound weird but how he pushed him away, yes to me he was showing his love not in a very good way but he was trying to protect jack from being killed he was scared of loosing him so he did what he did.

Ennis love is actually showed in a non verbal language he expressed it physically and emotionally, no words were needed for him he just showed Jack his love with his actions but sometimes his actions were missinterpreted

Very well said Carlos, I could only agree

[keren_b]

Carlos that was a beautiful post. you have great observations.

[edgar]

Just wondering tho.... was that kiss love? or lust? or jst because he knew by then he didnt love Alma? I think it was love...just wondering

I think it is love.  Eros is intrinsically part of this love, nonetheless.


In that pic, the kiss almost appears PAINFUL.  An excess of love, repressed for so long, is exceedingly painful...

Lust or love.... I have almost a reverse interpretation, although it may seem odd to some. (I've mentioned this elsewhere, sorry if it's a repeat for you.)

I think the kiss may have been a (very intense, very unusual) expression of friendship. And this is not to deny the sexual aspect ("eros" in Greek) of J and E's love. But their love also was a very deep, very strong friendship ("fileo" in Greek). Both Jack and Ennis had had very bad relationships with men in the past. Ennis's dad "forsook" him by dying; his older brother just beat on him and then pushed him out. Jack's dad is an abusive piece of sh*t; read the end of the short story for details. Likewise Jack has a bad relationship with his father-in-law. The strong male-male friendship that shapes most boy's/men's lives was missing for both of these guys, until they found each other.

I happen to believe that both men loved their wives, so they got at least some of the Eros they needed elsewhere. But the friendship (notice how often they call each other "friend" or "buddy") they shared was very, very deep and it seems they had no other friends (until Jack finds Randall, perhaps).

And this ties in to what tpe says about the kiss being painful. They certainly didn't intend to start kissing there on the street, on the stairs. It was going to be a very strong, very intense hug, but a hug couldn't express all they felt. As AP puts it in the short story, their mouths just came together "like a key finds a lock." Then the Eros takes over, which is a painful transition. Painful because, for both of them, they didn't really plan on it.

Coulda written this better, ahdunno.

[tpe]

Lust or love.... I have almost a reverse interpretation, although it may seem odd to some. (I've mentioned this elsewhere, sorry if it's a repeat for you.)

I think the kiss may have been a (very intense, very unusual) expression of friendship. And this is not to deny the sexual aspect ("eros" in Greek) of J and E's love. But their love also was a very deep, very strong friendship ("fileo" in Greek). Both Jack and Ennis had had very bad relationships with men in the past. Ennis's dad "forsook" him by dying; his older brother just beat on him and then pushed him out. Jack's dad is an abusive piece of sh*t; read the end of the short story for details. Likewise Jack has a bad relationship with his father-in-law. The strong male-male friendship that shapes most boy's/men's lives was missing for both of these guys, until they found each other.

I happen to believe that both men loved their wives, so they got at least some of the Eros they needed elsewhere. But the friendship (notice how often they call each other "friend" or "buddy") they shared was very, very deep and it seems they had no other friends (until Jack finds Randall, perhaps).

And this ties in to what tpe says about the kiss being painful. They certainly didn't intend to start kissing there on the street, on the stairs. It was going to be a very strong, very intense hug, but a hug couldn't express all they felt. As AP puts it in the short story, their mouths just came together "like a key finds a lock." Then the Eros takes over, which is a painful transition. Painful because, for both of them, they didn't really plan on it.

Coulda written this better, ahdunno.

I am simply amazed at how much this kiss draws out from each of us. 

In a way, I find this kiss so intense that I can agree to calling it an expression of deep friendship coming -- involuntarily -- from two people with one soul.

After all, the deepest friendship -- that which entails the giving of one's life for a friend -- is, in many ways, the highest calling.

[MississaugaRed]

Lust or love.... I have almost a reverse interpretation, although it may seem odd to some. (I've mentioned this elsewhere, sorry if it's a repeat for you.)

I think the kiss may have been a (very intense, very unusual) expression of friendship. And this is not to deny the sexual aspect ("eros" in Greek) of J and E's love. But their love also was a very deep, very strong friendship ("fileo" in Greek).  snip ...

....
And this ties in to what tpe says about the kiss being painful. They certainly didn't intend to start kissing there on the street, on the stairs. It was going to be a very strong, very intense hug, but a hug couldn't express all they felt. As AP puts it in the short story, their mouths just came together "like a key finds a lock." Then the Eros takes over, which is a painful transition. Painful because, for both of them, they didn't really plan on it.

Coulda written this better, ahdunno.  (written just fine, Edgar!)

I am simply amazed at how much this kiss draws out from each of us. 

In a way, I find this kiss so intense that I can agree to calling it an expression of deep friendship coming -- involuntarily -- from two people with one soul.

After all, the deepest friendship -- that which entails the giving of one's life for a friend -- is, in many ways, the highest calling.

What an intriguing concept, and so elegantly expressed by both of you, Edgar and Thomas!

And oddly enough, your reflections tie in perfectly to a comment from Jake Gyllenhaal, made during the Toronto Film Festival press conference.  He has taken some backlash here and there , as you know, for his assertion that Jack and Ennis had a great friendship for one another, although he never once denies the intense physical desire or that this is a homosexual love story.  But it's uncanny how well his words that day fit the idea you're both presenting here today.

He said "the different between a best friend and a soul mate is the consummation of the relationship".  By entering into a physical relation, first on Brokeback and later when they reunite, they indeed step across the boundaries of friendship alone, into a lovers world shared by soul mates - "two people with one soul" as you expressed so well, Thomas!

Suddenly, after reading your beautiful posts, Mr. JG's comment takes on a much deeper meaning, and not one necessarily out of context of the story.  Ennis, rarely able to express himself in terms of the true erotic side of his nature, often finds ways to show his love to Jack through the bonds of that friendship when the ways of lovers fail him. 

The reunion kiss is probably my favourite moment of Ennis expressing his feelings for Jack, because it is so spontaneous and passionate.  But now, all the sweet moments of teasing and horseplay suddenly have a whole other dimension also. An interesting layer to add to the richness of their story.  Another excuse to look at the film through fresh eyes! Many thanks. 

[matron]

Gosh, your posts are so beautiful. They made me totally wordless and I'm not able to add anything anymore now.

I wonder why these kind of posts make me cry like a baby..  :'(

[tpe]

What an intriguing concept, and so elegantly expressed by both of you, Edgar and Thomas!

And oddly enough, your reflections tie in perfectly to a comment from Jake Gyllenhaal, made during the Toronto Film Festival press conference.  He has taken some backlash here and there , as you know, for his assertion that Jack and Ennis had a great friendship for one another, although he never once denies the intense physical desire or that this is a homosexual love story.  But it's uncanny how well his words that day fit the idea you're both presenting here today.

He said "the different between a best friend and a soul mate is the consummation of the relationship".  By entering into a physical relation, first on Brokeback and later when they reunite, they indeed step across the boundaries of friendship alone, into a lovers world shared by soul mates - "two people with one soul" as you expressed so well, Thomas!

Suddenly, after reading your beautiful posts, Mr. JG's comment takes on a much deeper meaning, and not one necessarily out of context of the story.  Ennis, rarely able to express himself in terms of the true erotic side of his nature, often finds ways to show his love to Jack through the bonds of that friendship when the ways of lovers fail him. 

The reunion kiss is probably my favourite moment of Ennis expressing his feelings for Jack, because it is so spontaneous and passionate.  But now, all the sweet moments of teasing and horseplay suddenly have a whole other dimension also. An interesting layer to add to the richness of their story.  Another excuse to look at the film through fresh eyes! Many thanks. 

Beautiful, MississaugaRed.  Your tying all this into Jake Gyllenhaal's 'controversial' comments is something I was not consciously aware of when I wrote the post, although I now realize that I had already most likely internalized Jake's view somehow and was just echoing it unconsciously here, in response to Edgar's post.

The kiss is very frightening in its intensity.  You feel that Ennis is ready to consume Jack body and soul.  And then you at last realize that Ennis could not help himself.  He and Jack were helpless in the face of their feelings for each other. 

And yet, they have always addressed each other as friends -- perhaps in the truest and deepest sense that each of them intrinsically understood.  Did they sense a discrepancy here between their addressing themselves as friends and the emotional love they have for each other? 

I think not.  In the presence of each other, they felt complete.  True friendship can do that.  It does not matter if sexual desire is there or not. 

That kiss probably surprised Ennis most of all. 

And yet is fell so naturally into place. 

It was God-given. 

I was impossible to deny.

[MississaugaRed]

Beautiful words as always, tpe, you bring poetry to these images.  :'(

I guess in a sense every moment that Ennis spends with Jack once they have begun their physical relationship is an expression of his love, as he does so in defiance of a childhood-scarred psyche. 

That he could take that first step beyond friendship at all speaks to the undeniable power of his feelings.  Then to fix his feet on this path for 20 years, regardless of the nightmares haunting him, well, I have to think there was love in every halting step, wasn't there??

[tpe]

Beautiful words as always, tpe, you bring poetry to these images.  :'(

I guess in a sense every moment that Ennis spends with Jack once they have begun their physical relationship is an expression of his love, as he does so in defiance of a childhood-scarred psyche. 

That he could take that first step beyond friendship at all speaks to the undeniable power of his feelings.  Then to fix his feet on this path for 20 years, regardless of the nightmares haunting him, well, I have to think there was love in every halting step, wasn't there??

I think Ennis loved Jack from the very beginning.  He never wavered in his love, even if he thought that keeping both of them apart was for the best for each of them.

Ennis's love was never in question.  He tried to grapple with how to make that love survive in a hostile world.  The tragedy was that his desire to make it survive proved his undoing...

Love can do this...

[LuvJackNasty]

Beautiful posts Carlos, Edgar, TPE and Miss-Red!

[welshwitch]

The greatest love may well involve the comprehension of both eros, which they certainly had, and agape, the Greek word for self-sacrificing love, the sort of love Christ has for his church, and that I see far less in Jack than in Ennis, who sacrificed everything but kept his love without compromise, faithful unto death, and even beyond. He didn't need words.

[tpe]

The greatest love may well involve the comprehension of both eros, which they certainly had, and agape, the Greek word for self-sacrificing love, the sort of love Christ has for his church, and that I see far less in Jack than in Ennis, who sacrificed everything but kept his love without compromise, faithful unto death, and even beyond. He didn't need words.

But agape is to give one's life for a friend. 

By dying for his dream, Jack fulfilled it in full.

By Jack's dying, Ennis came to the realization of that love.

No greater love there is than...

[Valandil Eluch]

 :'( :'( :'( :'(

[edgar]

Ennis loved.

He loved his father, which made the father's terrible act of showing Earl (?) to Ennis all the more traumatic.

Ennis loved Alma, just not enough. He defended her to Jack.

Ennis loved his children. He would not even think of moving to Texas away from his children--a stand I respect very much; and I don't think Ennis gets enough credit for this. He also, it seems, makes all his child support payments, allowing the kids to live in that "nice" home we see at Thanksgiving. Also, if he did not make the payments, he would have been arrested. He sniffs Jr's sweater as he's putting it away to keep her presence near him. And he's going to make time to be at her wedding, because he realizes how badly she wants him to be there.

Ennis loved Jack. He would not have thought about it with these words, but he loved Jack. He did not--could not, at least at times--express it well, cetainly not with words. But his body expressed (maybe unwillingly expressed) his love--the dozy hug, the wink, the reunion kiss and nuzzle, stroking Jack's arm in the the motel. The dry heaves. Even the fight.

Sniffing the shirts. Hugging the shirts.   

He still can't find the common words... just, "Jack, I swear..."

[keren_b]

What a beautiful post Edgar. Thank you.

[tpe]

Ennis loved Jack. He would not have thought about it with these words, but he loved Jack. He did not--could not, at least at times--express it well, cetainly not with words. But his body expressed (maybe unwillingly expressed) his love--the dozy hug, the wink, the reunion kiss and nuzzle, stroking Jack's arm in the the motel. The dry heaves. Even the fight.

Ennis may have been repressed, but there was never a doubt that he was a man who loved deeply.

His actions were never in doubt.  From the small things he did for Jack up in BBM to the reunion kiss and to that embrace on the final night together, Ennis expressed his love for Jack in nu uncertain terms. 

And Ennis knew that Jack KNEW that Ennis loved him.  They understood each other.  Neither of them needed to say the word 'love'.  They lived that word in their hearts for as long as they lived.

We must all remember and keep close to our hearts this one truth: that both were able to show their love for each other because the other made it possible.  Ennis, for all his stoicism and fear, never denied his deep love for Jack.  He just couldn't.  It was not possible.

Ennis may have brushed aside Jack's embrace on that visit after the divorce.  Did it lessen Ennis's love for Jack?    Ennis constantly refused to live the dream of a shared life.  Did that cheapen his love for Jack?

No.

Perhaps the greatest testament to Ennis's love was the fact that he resisted the dream of a shared life.  Given his childhood experience, his loneliness, his fear, the only way he knew how to protect that love from being destroyed by a hostile world was to set it apart, up in the pristine beauty and isolation of the mountains.

Jack probably understood this.  But it hurt him that Ennis could never be his openly.  Jack's vision was to love Ennis openly even if it meant death.  But his frustration and hurt never cast a doubt on his belief in Ennis's love for him.

Had Jack been asked this question, what would he have answered?  In my opinion, it could be this: 'I feel Ennis's love for me in the memory of his every look, his every letter, his every glance, his every thought, his every breath, his every silence.  So long as Ennis lives, I know that he loves me.'





   

[NoReins]

Had Jack been asked this question, what would he have answered?  In my opinion, it could be this: 'I feel Ennis's love for me in the memory of his every look, his every letter, his every glance, his every thought, his every breath, his every silence.  So long as Ennis lives, I know that he loves me.'

tpe that's heartbreaking and uplifting at the same time. You've hit the nail on the head again.

[tpe]

Had Jack been asked this question, what would he have answered?  In my opinion, it could be this: 'I feel Ennis's love for me in the memory of his every look, his every letter, his every glance, his every thought, his every breath, his every silence.  So long as Ennis lives, I know that he loves me.'

tpe that's heartbreaking and uplifting at the same time. You've hit the nail on the head again.

NoReins.  I know we all connect with their love for each other.  It is so strong that when we envision one, we cannot help but see the other.  Ennis is the embodiment of our love for Jack, as Jack is the corporeal element of our love for Ennis.

[LuvJackNasty]

Wow- wonderful posts Edgar and TPE.

[tpe]

Wow- wonderful posts Edgar and TPE.

Thanks LuvJackNasty.

These threads about Ennis's love for Jack and Jack's love for Ennis: they are so beautiful.

[Forever]

I think Ennis loved Jack from the very beginning.  He never wavered in his love, even if he thought that keeping both of them apart was for the best for each of them.

Ennis's love was never in question.  He tried to grapple with how to make that love survive in a hostile world.  The tragedy was that his desire to make it survive proved his undoing...

Love can do this...

Concerning the great love of Ennis, I have always wondered what were the profound reasons of his refusal for the sweet life proposal, was it because he wanted to protect Jack from homophobic violence or was it because of his own homophobic tendencies? Heath said once in an interview that Ennis was an homophobic man who fall in love with a man. I have already asked this question in another thread, and according to Lancecowboy it's because Ennis had homophobic tendencies and his fear of ending up like Earl that he refused the sweet life. As a matter of fact, and because I am an incurable romantic I would love to agree with you, that Ennis only wanted to protect Jack against homophobic violence, because he was deeply in love with him, but we are obliged to consider the opinion of Heath...

[Forever]

Ennis may have been repressed, but there was never a doubt that he was a man who loved deeply.

His actions were never in doubt.  From the small things he did for Jack up in BBM to the reunion kiss and to that embrace on the final night together, Ennis expressed his love for Jack in nu uncertain terms. 

And Ennis knew that Jack KNEW that Ennis loved him.  They understood each other.  Neither of them needed to say the word 'love'.  They lived that word in their hearts for as long as they lived.

We must all remember and keep close to our hearts this one truth: that both were able to show their love for each other because the other made it possible.  Ennis, for all his stoicism and fear, never denied his deep love for Jack.  He just couldn't.  It was not possible.

Ennis may have brushed aside Jack's embrace on that visit after the divorce.  Did it lessen Ennis's love for Jack?    Ennis constantly refused to live the dream of a shared life.  Did that cheapen his love for Jack?

No.

Perhaps the greatest testament to Ennis's love was the fact that he resisted the dream of a shared life.  Given his childhood experience, his loneliness, his fear, the only way he knew how to protect that love from being destroyed by a hostile world was to set it apart, up in the pristine beauty and isolation of the mountains.

Jack probably understood this.  But it hurt him that Ennis could never be his openly.  Jack's vision was to love Ennis openly even if it meant death.  But his frustration and hurt never cast a doubt on his belief in Ennis's love for him.

Had Jack been asked this question, what would he have answered?  In my opinion, it could be this: 'I feel Ennis's love for me in the memory of his every look, his every letter, his every glance, his every thought, his every breath, his every silence.  So long as Ennis lives, I know that he loves me.'





   

I love this old post of you, but then again I wonder why Lancecowboy said that it was more from Ennis selfish fear of ending up like Earl than his wish to protect Jack from violence.

[tpe]

I love this old post of you, but then again I wonder why Lancecowboy said that it was more from Ennis selfish fear of ending up like Earl than his wish to protect Jack from violence.

You make me think again of our old friend, Edgar.  I do miss him from the old days...

I think that for some of us here, the hint given by AP about seeing an old lonely cowboy (and seeing him as Ennis in her mind's eye) points more to a fear of being alone above anything else.  I am not denying that Ennis saw and did not relish the possibility of such a fate.  But I do think that what was first and foremost in his mind was the fear that those whom he loved would end up in a similar fashion.  This is just my opinion, of course, but over the years, it has remained that way, and I don't see this changing any time soon...

[Forever]

You make me think again of our old friend, Edgar.  I do miss him from the old days...

I think that for some of us here, the hint given by AP about seeing an old lonely cowboy (and seeing him as Ennis in her mind's eye) points more to a fear of being alone above anything else.  I am not denying that Ennis saw and did not relish the possibility of such a fate.  But I do think that what was first and foremost in his mind was the fear that those whom he loved would end up in a similar fashion.  This is just my opinion, of course, but over the years, it has remained that way, and I don't see this changing any time soon...

So many Brokies, (well less now than 6 years ago helas), so many different opinion! Many Brokies said that the ss of Annie Proulx, was more a story about homophobia than a love story, however she never mentioned explicitly that Ennis had homophobic tendencies, I only understand that is father was an homophobic. I love when you say: that the greatest testament to Ennis's love was the fact that he resisted the dream of a shared life, given his childhood experience, his loneliness, his fear, the only way he knew how to protect that love from being destroyed by a hostile world was to set it apart, up in the pristine beauty and isolation of the mountains. However, what Ennis thought was safe for both of them, living apart, was at the end the worst option, he didn't see that keeping Jack close to him would have been beter for his protection, because at the end they could have fight together, and beter fight together and maybe fall together than completely alone. Thank you tpe for answering my question!

[tpe]

Thnaks also!  I think it is sign of great Art that such a work, written with so much restarint and economy of means, could inspire so many emotions and so many POVs.  This is great Art as it should be: that it connects with so many peoples coming from such diverse backgrounds, on account of its universality with respect to the human experience.

[myprivatejack]

Thnaks also!  I think it is sign of great Art that such a work, written with so much restarint and economy of means, could inspire so many emotions and so many POVs.  This is great Art as it should be: that it connects with so many peoples coming from such diverse backgrounds, on account of its universality with respect to the human experience.

Exactly,Tpe ¡ Any piece of art (or better said,any masterpiece) distinguish itself from the average works in that it's able to awake many emotions and inspire many and different PO Vs in us; and also it makes us think scenes,reactions,way of beings over,discovering new shades,metaphors,reasons for a behaviour,etc every time we watch it.Bearing in mind this definition,BBM is a masterpiece that has made so many people from many different cultures and ages react,decide,suffer,identify themselves,or simply (simply?) feeling themselves alive.
In this sense,I'd say that any opinion about Ennis reason for rejecting this sweet life with Jack is logical,IMO; a sage combination of his fear of loosing the only person who understood him well and whom he loved the most with the fact that he wasn't prepared psychologically to see himself living with another man and maybe finish like Earl and Rich.What,for me,is also a kind of homophobia,in which he had been educated,don't forget it...inside him,he didn't see "this thing" as something advisable,even nothing sane enough,and this makes him feel extremely unease with his feelings.I think that Heath not only portrayed very well Ennis but he understood him better than nobody else;so,his definition I have mentioned more than once here,"Ennis was an homophobic man in love with another man" is perfectly fitting here.