Author Topic: Jack's love for Ennis (Read 325994 times)

welshwitch · « **Reply #180 on:** Nov 03, 2006, 11:25 AM »

Ennis hadn't admitted his feelings for Jack for twenty years - after so long it's kiind of hard to change and say something you've tried to deny and suppressed so firmly. then there's also the fact that it's hard to deal with the expression of intense emotion from another person when that emotion is directed at you. I tend to think that Ennis has no idea how to respond, certainly partly because he hasn't told Jack about not being able to make their usual August meeting but for other reasons too. - if you admit something, then you've moved on to a point where you might be expected to do something to change the present situation, and Ennis can't cope with even the idea of that.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #181 on:** Nov 03, 2006, 01:01 PM »

A simple I miss you too would have been nice. Iv'e always thought that Jack;s words begged a response from Ennis. After 20 years he deserved that at least. There 's an emptiness there that needed filling. Jack had to assume too much. Too much to long.

tpe · « **Reply #182 on:** Nov 03, 2006, 02:32 PM »

I do agree that this was a cry for help from Jack. He knew Ennis's stand: we've got to stand it. Clearly, Jack was telling Ennis that his love for him was much stronger than himself.

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #183 on:** Nov 04, 2006, 07:46 PM »

You all are making me cry. It's like I'm feeling some of the emptiness that Jack must have felt.

ksxks · « **Reply #184 on:** Nov 05, 2006, 02:23 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 02, 2006, 08:28 AM

I love Jack for trying. He is inept in many ways, but the way he loves moves me deeply.

I know, tpe. That says it beautifully -- trying...inept...the way he loves. I keep thinking about Jack lately, the steadfastness of his love. I am so moved, too, so touched by him. What a beautiful character. I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...but we'll never know.

kathy

tpe · « **Reply #185 on:** Nov 06, 2006, 08:37 AM »

Quote from: City Slickin' Cowboy on Nov 04, 2006, 07:46 PM

You all are making me cry. It's like I'm feeling some of the emptiness that Jack must have felt.

I think Ennis also felt that strong emptiness but tried to bury it deep inside him. Perhaps it was buried so deep that even Jack was unable to read Ennis correctly. In any case, that emptiness had to come to the surface in the case of Jack. He needed to breathe.

tpe · « **Reply #186 on:** Nov 06, 2006, 08:46 AM »

Quote from: ksxks on Nov 05, 2006, 02:23 AM

I know, tpe. That says it beautifully -- trying...inept...the way he loves. I keep thinking about Jack lately, the steadfastness of his love. I am so moved, too, so touched by him. What a beautiful character. I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...but we'll never know.

kathy

A lot of times, we love someone because of their imperfections, no? I think Ennis was attracted to Jack from the start because of Jack's openness and the way Jack wore his heart on his sleeve. But I do think it was only later that Ennis realized what he had -- an by then, it was too late.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #187 on:** Nov 07, 2006, 07:47 PM »

Quote from: ksxks on Nov 05, 2006, 02:23 AM

I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...butwe'll never know.

kathy

I'm sure Ennis knew, I think that's one of the reasons why he couldn't bring himself to agree to them living together, the fear that it would lead to one of them losing the other, like Rich lost Earl :\'( In his own way, he was trying to protect their love, the tragic irony of course is that despite that (or maybe even because of it) he lost Jack anyway,as well as the lifetime of loving each other that they could have shared :\'( :\'( :\'(

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #188 on:** Nov 07, 2006, 08:36 PM »

:\'( I agree CrimsonSky- Ennis, in his own way was trying to protect Jack- so afraid that them being together would bring the death of one or both of them. Tragically and ironically upon discovering those shirts he discovered a fate worse than death. :\'(

greenfrog · « **Reply #189 on:** Nov 07, 2006, 10:02 PM »

Quote from: City Slickin' Cowboy on Nov 04, 2006, 07:46 PM

You all are making me cry. It's like I'm feeling some of the emptiness that Jack must have felt.

You too Cowboy?

I'm getting very emotional after reading some of these posts. :\'( :\'( :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #190 on:** Nov 08, 2006, 09:23 AM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Nov 07, 2006, 07:47 PM

Quote from: ksxks on Nov 05, 2006, 02:23 AM
I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...butwe'll never know.

kathy

I'm sure Ennis knew, I think that's one of the reasons why he couldn't bring himself to agree to them living together, the fear that it would lead to one of them losing the other, like Rich lost Earl :\'( In his own way, he was trying to protect their love, the tragic irony of course is that despite that (or maybe even because of it) he lost Jack anyway,as well as the lifetime of loving each other that they could have shared :\'( :\'( :\'(

CrimsonSky, I deeply love what you have said here.

NoReins · « **Reply #191 on:** Nov 08, 2006, 05:33 PM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Nov 07, 2006, 07:47 PM

I'm sure Ennis knew, I think that's one of the reasons why he couldn't bring himself to agree to them living together, the fear that it would lead to one of them losing the other, like Rich lost Earl :\'( In his own way, he was trying to protect their love, the tragic irony of course is that despite that (or maybe even because of it) he lost Jack anyway,as well as the lifetime of loving each other that they could have shared :\'( :\'( :\'(

I totally agree with that - beautifully said, CrimsonSky :\'( :\'(

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #192 on:** Nov 08, 2006, 11:00 PM »

I often find myself imagining what a life together would have been like for the two of them. Ennis would have remained primarily reserved in his demeanor. However, Jack had a way of making Ennis light up like no one else could. Alma Jr. and Jenny were very much bright spots in Ennis's life, but Jack was the only adult who really made Ennis appear alive. I guess that is why I am so heart broken at the end of the film. When Ennis lost Jack, he lost a big part of himself and we all knew it. :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #193 on:** Nov 09, 2006, 08:23 AM »

Quote from: City Slickin' Cowboy on Nov 08, 2006, 11:00 PM

I often find myself imagining what a life together would have been like for the two of them. Ennis would have remained primarily reserved in his demeanor. However, Jack had a way of making Ennis light up like no one else could. Alma Jr. and Jenny were very much bright spots in Ennis's life, but Jack was the only adult who really made Ennis appear alive. I guess that is why I am so heart broken at the end of the film. When Ennis lost Jack, he lost a big part of himself and we all knew it. :\'(

But we should also be thankful that Jack's love for Ennis was not entirely in vain, no? Ennis loved and was loved. Even the end cannot dim the beauty of their connection. It casts it in a monumental, tragic light; but it raises it up to the level of a great and unforgettable love.

Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree · « **Reply #194 on:** Nov 09, 2006, 12:54 PM »

It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all (W. Shakespeare).

There is a lot of truth in that.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #195 on:** Nov 09, 2006, 06:29 PM »

Quote from: NoReins on Nov 08, 2006, 05:33 PM

I totally agree with that - beautifully said, CrimsonSky :\'( :\'(

Thanks NoReins,tpe and LJN

:-[ It's always a comfort to know that I'm not alone in what I feel about this movie, and about Ennis and Jack, no-one in "real-life" shares, or even undertsands,my obssession

ksxks · « **Reply #196 on:** Nov 09, 2006, 10:45 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 09, 2006, 08:23 AM

But we should also be thankful that Jack's love for Ennis was not entirely in vain, no? Ennis loved and was loved. Even the end cannot dim the beauty of their connection. It casts it in a monumental, tragic light; but it raises it up to the level of a great and unforgettable love.

So true, and beautifully said, tpe. For better or worse, tragedy is more powerful than happy-ever-after.

I just hope and pray that Jack (listen to me, as if he's "real" -- but that's another discussion) knew for sure Ennis's love at his end...

kathy

greenfrog · « **Reply #197 on:** Nov 09, 2006, 11:45 PM »

Quote from: ksxks on Nov 09, 2006, 10:45 PM

Quote from: tpe on Nov 09, 2006, 08:23 AM

But we should also be thankful that Jack's love for Ennis was not entirely in vain, no? Ennis loved and was loved. Even the end cannot dim the beauty of their connection. It casts it in a monumental, tragic light; but it raises it up to the level of a great and unforgettable love.

So true, and beautifully said, tpe. For better or worse, tragedy is more powerful than happy-ever-after.

I just hope and pray that Jack (listen to me, as if he's "real" -- but that's another discussion) knew for sure Ennis's love at his end...

kathy

I think he knew Ennis loved him. Ennis just struggled to show it at times. :\'( :\'( :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #198 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 08:01 AM »

Quote from: Jack F. Twist (Saul) on Nov 09, 2006, 12:54 PM

It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all (W. Shakespeare).

There is a lot of truth in that.

It is a very simple truth. You have not lived if you have never loved.

tpe · « **Reply #199 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 08:06 AM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Nov 09, 2006, 06:29 PM

Thanks NoReins,tpe and LJN :-[ It's always a comfort to know that I'm not alone in what I feel about this movie, and about Ennis and Jack, no-one in "real-life" shares, or even undertsands,my obssession

Everyone has obsessions. Jack's was his love for Ennis.

tpe · « **Reply #200 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 08:11 AM »

Quote from: ksxks on Nov 09, 2006, 10:45 PM

So true, and beautifully said, tpe. For better or worse, tragedy is more powerful than happy-ever-after.

I just hope and pray that Jack (listen to me, as if he's "real" -- but that's another discussion) knew for sure Ennis's love at his end...

kathy

I had wondered whether Jack doubted in the end. I personally believe that he didn't. But part of the tragedy is that we will never know for sure.

tpe · « **Reply #201 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 08:18 AM »

Quote from: greenfrog on Nov 09, 2006, 11:45 PM

I think he knew Ennis loved him. Ennis just struggled to show it at times. :\'( :\'( :\'(

I would like to think that this is the case. Almost 20 years of waiting cannot be overthrown very easily; but then again, could it have been too long to bear in the end?

welshwitch · « **Reply #202 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 10:43 AM »

I'm quoting from memory here as I haven't watched it in ages so this may not be accurate know about Jack, but , but at the end of GWTW Rhett Butler says something like,"Even the most deathless love can wear out, and mine wore out against your stubbornness."

I don't know about Jack, but surely at times, those dark moments at 3 am when you can't sleep and everything that worries you seems three times as bad as it is in daylight, he must have asked himself if it was all worth it, given that Ennis was never going to change.

carbyville · « **Reply #203 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 10:57 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Nov 10, 2006, 10:43 AM

I'm quoting from memory here as I haven't watched it in ages so this may not be accurate know about Jack, but , but at the end of GWTW Rhett Butler says something like,"Even the most deathless love can wear out, and mine wore out against your stubbornness."

I don't know about Jack, but surely at times, those dark moments at 3 am when you can't sleep and everything that worries you seems three times as bad as it is in daylight, he must have asked himself if it was all worth it, given that Ennis was never going to change.

Excellent, excellent point.

I agree with this. Jack was always the optimist, but even the optimist has to have a little doubt in them, somewhere. I don't think Jack would have ever really given up on Ennis even if they did stop seeing eachother, Jack would have always been thinking about Ennis. Whether he had stayed with Lureen, gone off with Randall or just found a new person entirely.

As you said, when it is 3am and you can't sleep, everything that worries you feels ten times worse and I could not agree with that more. It would have been moments like this when Jack did the most thinking. The realistic thinking. The "What if this never happens?" thinking. Things like that are always much harder on an optimist because it is forcing you to accept something that isn't the best for everyone involved. It isn't solving or helping anything. No light at the end of the tunnel. But I think that in the end Jack having a realization like this would only keep him going for his goal, and if he had not died, hopefully reached that goal one day.

Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree · « **Reply #204 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 01:26 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Nov 10, 2006, 10:43 AM

Ennis was never going to change.

Another tragedy is that Ennis did change - it just took Jacks's death to do it. As Jonie Mitchell sang in Yellow taxi -"you don't know what you got til its gone".

From Shakespeare to Jonie Mitchell. Oh dear!

welshwitch · « **Reply #205 on:** Nov 10, 2006, 04:10 PM »

"Funny how potent cheap music can be" - quotation, or misquotation, from Noel Coward, True of the words of popular songs, which can be as effective in some circumstances as great poetry.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #206 on:** Nov 12, 2006, 06:29 AM »

I still think Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum, waited for it to sink in (I don't think it would've taken long) .I think that last meeting scared the crap out of Ennis. If only Jack would've had the chance to meet Ennis at Pine Creek I believe Jack could have finally convinced Ennis that it was all or nothing. The thought of loosing Jack forever after Jack's words during the last fight would've done it I think. Sadly we'll never know.

ksxks · « **Reply #207 on:** Nov 13, 2006, 01:18 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 12, 2006, 06:29 AM

I still think Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum, waited for it to sink in (I don't think it would've taken long) .I think that last meeting scared the crap out of Ennis. If only Jack would've had the chance to meet Ennis at Pine Creek I believe Jack could have finally convinced Ennis that it was all or nothing. The thought of loosing Jack forever after Jack's words during the last fight would've done it I think. Sadly we'll never know.

I like to think that, too, that at the November meeting at Pine Creek, Ennis would have finally come around, faced with actually losing Jack, and started to let himself work through his fears, let Jack help him work through his fears. Jack may even have called or written (a letter, not a postcard) in response to Ennis's postcard saying, I really don't want to get together again if you're just going to leave me again, and again, and again...

kathy

tpe · « **Reply #208 on:** Nov 13, 2006, 08:36 AM »

Faith lights us, even through the Grave,
being the Evidence of Things not seen.
And this is the Comfort of the Good,
that the Grave cannot hold them,
and that they live as soon as they die.
For Death is no more than a Turning
of us over from Time to Eternity.
Death then, being the Way and Condition of Life,
we cannot love to live, if we cannot bear to die.

(William Penn)

FlwrChild · « **Reply #209 on:** Nov 13, 2006, 09:34 AM »

Thomas, I don't know what to say. It's perfect. That's all. :\'(