Topic: Jack -- "You folks run you off?"

[tpe]

Edgar, your posts here are wonderful, as always, I love how you seem to come at these moments from a whole new perspective.  Great observations throughout on what seemed like such a simple enough scene on the surface.  Just two guys getting to know each other over a small talk and a few beers.  But as you perceived, this exchange serves to both connect them and widen their views of the world.  Lovely. 

Had always before disassociated this first time talking at the bar with their time up on the mountain, but you make the link seem so clear now.

One of my favorite images of Jack, ever, is on that last day on Brokeback.  He's finished saddling the horses and looks up at a brooding Ennis sitting alone in the meadow.  There is a look of such understanding and tenderness in Jack's eyes in that moment before he walks up the hill to Ennis.  A gentleness in his voice when he says "time to get going, cowboy".

I always thought Jack was reacting on his instincts, understanding deep inside the simple fact that Ennis was desperately torn up over having their time together cut short without warning. That he knew there was more emotion roiling inside of Enns then he could stand. There is that of course, but in light of what you've all just said maybe it was more?

Maybe he understood that once again Ennis was being "run off".  Run off from the precious few weeks out of his lonely life where he was allowed to be truly happy.  They are both being run off again, by Aguirre, and not for the last time in Jack's case.  

Their whole lives - past, present and future - these two men are being run off.  Run off from their dreams, their aspirations.  Run off from living life as their nature begs them to live.  Run off of any chance of a life together.  They're run off by bad fortune and intolerance; by narrow minds and rigid social mores;  and ultimately by their own choices and fears, I guess.

You're all  making me think that "your folks run you off" was just the beginning ....  :'(

This is one of the most moving and most sublimely beautiful statements I have ever read about this scene.

Thank you.

His understanding that Ennis being "run off" once again: this makes me weep.

[edgar]

I wonder what Ennis did when he came down? As pointed out upthread, he's homeless...

Maybe he rented the place earlier than he thought he'd have to; maybe pushed the wedding up a few weeks?

Re: Jack lassoing Ennis when he's pouting on the mountain. This is one of the few times in the movie when we see Jack being stronger than Ennis. Jack is torn up about parting with Ennis, but maybe he already is forming some plans about seeing him some time in the future. Anyway, Jack seems to handle it all well enough until they're standing by the truck. Ennis is already showing his dissatisfaction up on the mountain.

[MississaugaRed]

Re: Jack lassoing Ennis when he's pouting on the mountain. This is one of the few times in the movie when we see Jack being stronger than Ennis. Jack is torn up about parting with Ennis, but maybe he already is forming some plans about seeing him some time in the future. Anyway, Jack seems to handle it all well enough until they're standing by the truck. Ennis is already showing his dissatisfaction up on the mountain.

Edgar, I have to say I have often seen Jack as being stronger than Ennis, inside, but yes in this instance he does appear the stronger on the outside, too; giving support to Ennis, getting him through this time when the world has gone out from under his feet.

It's interesting that you say Jack seems to be handling it well enough himself.  I've personally always felt that Jack had a painful experience, romantically or sexually, in his past.  That maybe he'd gone through a similar turbulence before, not on the same level as what he's experiencing here with Ennis , but at least in the sense of having learned the hard lesson that relationships weren't ever gong to go easy for him.

Maybe he seems to have a better handle here because he's felt this kind of pain before, has taken this blow before (or been "run off" before?), whereas Ennis has had nothing in his life to prepare him for this kind of situation with a lover ??

oh, ahdunno ...  you keep bringing up the hard questions, Edgar!   I must be masochistic ... 'cause I like that in a person.

[welshwitch]

And Jack doesn't run Ennis off or run off from him, for that matter. When he lassoos Jack it's more as though he's trying to tie the two of them together; Ennis shakes off the rope the first time, as though he's used to losing things and has acceoted that he's being sent off the mountain. The two of them as they come down with the sheep seem to me like Adam and eve expelled form the garden, run off by a power they can't resist. 

[edgar]

"It's interesting that you say Jack seems to be handling it well enough himself.  I've personally always felt that Jack had a painful experience, romantically or sexually, in his past.  That maybe he'd gone through a similar turbulence before, not on the same level as what he's experiencing here with Ennis , but at least in the sense of having learned the hard lesson that relationships weren't ever gong to go easy for him.
Maybe he seems to have a better handle here because he's felt this kind of pain before, has taken this blow before (or been "run off" before?), whereas Ennis has had nothing in his life to prepare him for this kind of situation with a lover ??"

Yes, Miss Red, Jack obviously has more wherewithal to deal with such a situation, and generally such wherewithal comes from experience. Funny, because Jack grew up in an isolated, rural house as an only child... And Ennis had a brother and a sister--and Alma--yet he is socially and romantically inept.

Ennis is slow.... He doesn't react at all as Jack drives off, then he keels over with illness. And only a year later does he realize what a special bond he shares with Jack.

[mactwck]

If Jack really understood why Ennis was brooding before he lassoed him, why didn't he ask him what he was going to do now?  Why wait until they came down?  Maybe if he had spoken up they never would have parted.

[CrimsonSky]

If Jack really understood why Ennis was brooding before he lassoed him, why didn't he ask him what he was going to do now?  Why wait until they came down?  Maybe if he had spoken up they never would have parted.

I wrote a long-winded post about this on another thread last night, but basically, I think Jack's intention was to try to talk to Ennis when he went over with the rope, but it turned into the play fight and then Ennis punching Jack. I'm guessing the atmosphere was a bit tense after that, so they didn't really talk much until they got back down

[welshwitch]

And of course they leave it hanging in the air, as they do to some extent after the motel scene, and much more after the divorce and final scenes - and Jack is apparently more prepared than Ennis to move on, as he's done before. Unlike Ennis, his folks haven't run him off, so he has a home and family ( of sorts) to go back to.

[Sunflower79]

Their whole lives - past, present and future - these two men are being run off.  Run off from their dreams, their aspirations.  Run off from living life as their nature begs them to live.  Run off of any chance of a life together.  They're run off by bad fortune and intolerance; by narrow minds and rigid social mores;  and ultimately by their own choices and fears, I guess.

I like that idea...they were run off from thier drems, their lives everything..I think that really sums it up very well..Ennis had dreams and wants and needs and unfortnally that didn''t happen..The society in which they lived in was against to men living together and loving together and sharing the good times and the bad times. People weren't open to alternative lifestyles..Men and women got married, and had children, and worked to support thier families. The idea that two men could love each other was out of the question.  Ennis had deep fears about living his dream life with Jack.  He was afraid that his choices would get him or Jack killed.  He was forced to live a lie..pretending to be "happily married" and livng a life of a straight men.

I think Jack wanted to know more about Ennis and he wanted to understand the circumstances of his life up until that point..It was hard for Ennis to open up about himself and share such personall details ..but he felt comfortable with Jack and sharing a peice of himself with him.

[amtamburo]

"If Jack really understood why Ennis was brooding before he lassoed him, why didn't he ask him what he was going to do now?  Why wait until they came down?  Maybe if he had spoken up they never would have parted."

Hello there,

I posted this on another thread, but since this has taken a bit of a turn in this direction I thought I would post it here to. 

I have always thought from the first time I watched BBM that the reason for Jack's causalness about leaving was because he fully believed that he and Ennis would simply continue with their relationship after they left the mountain. Look at how perplexed he is by Ennis' moodiness about having to leave earlier then expected.

He was obviously not happy about being seperated from Ennis once he realized that was what was happening, but given that Ennis had said it was a "one shot thing" I think he didn't know how or even dare to ask Ennis if that still stood.(After all... not to long before that Ennis had socked him in the face for seemingly no reason! It's reasonable to assume that Jack thought he might do it again if he asked such a question.) I think that his mention of working there again next summer was his way of trying to find out what Ennis' intentions were about their relationship. Notice how crushed he looks when Ennis brings up his impending marriage, that was the confirmation that, as far as Ennis was concerned, their relationship was over. For me, the look on his face when he drove away, after looking at Ennis in the mirror, was heartbreaking... he just looks so hurt and resigned. Poor Jack! :\'(

Just my take on things!

[FlwrChild]

amtamburo,

Welcome! You make some good points. Keep them coming.

 

[amtamburo]

Thanks for the welcome.. 

[dalemidex]

I have always thought from the first time I watched BBM that the reason for Jack's causalness about leaving was because he fully believed that he and Ennis would simply continue with their relationship after they left the mountain. Look at how perplexed he is by Ennis' moodiness about having to leave earlier then expected.

He was obviously not happy about being separated from Ennis once he realized that was what was happening, but given that Ennis had said it was a "one shot thing" I think he didn't know how or even dare to ask Ennis if that still stood.(After all... not to long before that Ennis had socked him in the face for seemingly no reason! It's reasonable to assume that Jack thought he might do it again if he asked such a question.) I think that his mention of working there again next summer was his way of trying to find out what Ennis' intentions were about their relationship. Notice how crushed he looks when Ennis brings up his impending marriage, that was the confirmation that, as far as Ennis was concerned, their relationship was over. For me, the look on his face when he drove away, after looking at Ennis in the mirror, was heartbreaking... he just looks so hurt and resigned. Poor Jack! :'(

Just my take on things!

Hmmm...you're leading me to think through this scene in a way I had not before.

I think Jack's shirt thievery tells us that by that point he worried about never seeing Ennis again.  Here's how I piece it together:

(1)  When Jack tells Ennis that they are to come down from the mountain early, Jack is not crushed because he hopes / believes they will continue their friendship off the mountain.  Ennis conflicted, sullen and ultimately silent because he can't reconcile his love for Jack with the future he faces.

(2)  By the time Ennis is sitting alone in the meadow, Jack senses the sadness in Ennis of their soon parting.  The look in Jack's eyes as he spies Ennis and heads over to him show recognition that this could mark an end.

(3)  The punch Ennis throws Jack confirms Jack's fear earlier.  So when Ennis and Jack change their bloody shirts, Jack swipes Ennis' as a reminder of him and their time together.  Had Jack still  assumed at this point they would keep in contact, what would the reason for the shirt have been?  I suppose it *could* have been a reason to look Ennis up later (hey, I have your shirt) but I think it's more likely it was to remember Ennis. 

(4)  By the parting scene at the truck, Jack is painfully aware of how it's going to be.  He asks hopefully about coming back next summer, but he knows how it had o be. 

By that point, as much as my heart screams OFFER ENNIS A RIDE, DAMMIT! I guess I understand why it happened that way.  To me it is the parting in that scene that turns the corner down the one-way street to tragic ddevastation

[karen1129]

Damn..... that made me cry ! :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

Damn..... that made me cry ! :\'(

Me too.  :\'(

[BBBOY]

I have always thought from the first time I watched BBM that the reason for Jack's causalness about leaving was because he fully believed that he and Ennis would simply continue with their relationship after they left the mountain. Look at how perplexed he is by Ennis' moodiness about having to leave earlier then expected.

He was obviously not happy about being separated from Ennis once he realized that was what was happening, but given that Ennis had said it was a "one shot thing" I think he didn't know how or even dare to ask Ennis if that still stood.(After all... not to long before that Ennis had socked him in the face for seemingly no reason! It's reasonable to assume that Jack thought he might do it again if he asked such a question.) I think that his mention of working there again next summer was his way of trying to find out what Ennis' intentions were about their relationship. Notice how crushed he looks when Ennis brings up his impending marriage, that was the confirmation that, as far as Ennis was concerned, their relationship was over. For me, the look on his face when he drove away, after looking at Ennis in the mirror, was heartbreaking... he just looks so hurt and resigned. Poor Jack! :'(

Just my take on things!

Hmmm...you're leading me to think through this scene in a way I had not before.

I think Jack's shirt thievery tells us that by that point he worried about never seeing Ennis again.  Here's how I piece it together:

(1)  When Jack tells Ennis that they are to come down from the mountain early, Jack is not crushed because he hopes / believes they will continue their friendship off the mountain.  Ennis conflicted, sullen and ultimately silent because he can't reconcile his love for Jack with the future he faces.

(2)  By the time Ennis is sitting alone in the meadow, Jack senses the sadness in Ennis of their soon parting.  The look in Jack's eyes as he spies Ennis and heads over to him show recognition that this could mark an end.

(3)  The punch Ennis throws Jack confirms Jack's fear earlier.  So when Ennis and Jack change their bloody shirts, Jack swipes Ennis' as a reminder of him and their time together.  Had Jack still  assumed at this point they would keep in contact, what would the reason for the shirt have been?  I suppose it *could* have been a reason to look Ennis up later (hey, I have your shirt) but I think it's more likely it was to remember Ennis. 

(4)  By the parting scene at the truck, Jack is painfully aware of how it's going to be.  He asks hopefully about coming back next summer, but he knows how it had o be. 

By that point, as much as my heart screams OFFER ENNIS A RIDE, DAMMIT! I guess I understand why it happened that way.  To me it is the parting in that scene that turns the corner down the one-way street to tragic ddevastation

'

Good take!

[amtamburo]

yes.. that is pretty much the chain of events as I figured them as well.

[mactwck]

I always shout at the Tv at this point also. Jeez, just offer him a ride, it might last a lifetime!  But it is not to be....

[jesseanne21]

I also think Jack asked Ennis this question just to find some common ground.  Jack did not get along with his father and had taken up rodeoing and was now working for Aguirre.  If he had gotten along with his dad he might have just been working that summer for his father.  When Jack comes looking for work with Aguirre he sees Ennis:  BROKE, ON FOOT AND CARRYING HIS CLOTHES IN A PAPER BAG.

[welshwitch]

I'd never thought of that before, but of course he's seen Ennis with his lackof possessions then he gets "They were" as an answer and picks up the past tense but misconstrues it. However, what does it say about his relationship withhis father that his immediate reaction is to assume that Ennis's father had run him off? there must be many other explanations - just one is the  way people could lose land and homes when banks foreclosed on them.

[bram]

You all are really thinking about this and making wonderful comments. I'm glad I came back to this messageboard afterall. It's hard to find people online to have an intelligent conversation with.

[tpe]

You all are really thinking about this and making wonderful comments. I'm glad I came back to this messageboard afterall. It's hard to find people online to have an intelligent conversation with.

I, for one, am glad to "see" you again bram.  You know you always have friends here...

[camom]

I've thought for some time now that there's an unspoken "too" on the end of Jack's question--"Your folks run you off...too?"  Just something about the way he says it.  I can't imagine Jack's mom being involved in something like that, and most likely it's not meant in the literal sense. especially since at the end of the summer he's planning to go up to his folks' ranch for the winter.  I agree with the prior post that Jack probably felt "run off" by the negative relationship with his father--or pushed away.  It's very telling that Jack's first assumption is that Ennis was "run off"--thrown out, ostracized, shunned, rejected...  I think it has everything to do with why they bond so strongly.  As it turns out, Ennis later tells Jack that he essentially was "run off" by his brother when he got married--"No more room for me."  I believe that part of the reason that Ennis is attracted to Jack is because here is someone who actually wants him, instead of leaving him or pushing him out.  The tragic irony is Ennis' involvement in a relationship that he knows (believes) will cause him to be ostracized even further, and therefore he won't allow himself to fully embrace the one person who completely accepts him.   

camom

[welshwitch]

It says so much about loveless relationships in families that Jack assumes that Ennis's family would do such a thing. You wonder whether the sheer difficulty of making a living offf difficult land leads to a hardening of feelings - it shows in Jack's father and in the way perhaps that Ennis's brother and sister shrug him off.

[tpe]

It says so much about loveless relationships in families that Jack assumes that Ennis's family would do such a thing. You wonder whether the sheer difficulty of making a living offf difficult land leads to a hardening of feelings - it shows in Jack's father and in the way perhaps that Ennis's brother and sister shrug him off.

This is most likely true.  I would say the land is a strong influence here.  Without the ranch, Ennis was adrift.  Jack still had that anchor -- that which he would return to again and again -- but it was clear that the inhospitable land hardened Jack's family.  It all looked like a hard life: hence, we have stoic, hardened people.

[camom]

It says so much about loveless relationships in families that Jack assumes that Ennis's family would do such a thing. You wonder whether the sheer difficulty of making a living offf difficult land leads to a hardening of feelings - it shows in Jack's father and in the way perhaps that Ennis's brother and sister shrug him off.

This is most likely true.  I would say the land is a strong influence here.  Without the ranch, Ennis was adrift.  Jack still had that anchor -- that which he would return to again and again -- but it was clear that the inhospitable land hardened Jack's family.  It all looked like a hard life: hence, we have stoic, hardened people.

And yet Jack is an optimistic dreamer.  Somehow he's managed to rise above his upbringing and remain hopeful about the world.  Maybe that's his mother's influence.

camom

[tpe]

And yet Jack is an optimistic dreamer.  Somehow he's managed to rise above his upbringing and remain hopeful about the world.  Maybe that's his mother's influence.

camom

camom, yes.  I do think there are many way of reacting to this environment.  Certainly one way is to dream -- to dream of other thngs: different places, different loves.  Jack knew he was different.  That allowed him to see beyond his current place in the world. 

Ennis reacted differently.  He initially did not want to view himself as any different from those around him.  He wanted so much to conform -- to be accepted -- to be like everyone else.

Jack's dreaming was infectuous.  It opened Ennis's eyes to love.  He too was different.   But he could not free himself totally to follow the dream.

Two similar backgrounds.  Two different outlooks.  Both wanted the same thing.  One wanted to stretch the limits and dare; the other wanted to protect what little they had. 

Both were in love.



 

[LuvJackNasty]

And yet Jack is an optimistic dreamer.  Somehow he's managed to rise above his upbringing and remain hopeful about the world.  Maybe that's his mother's influence.

camom

camom, yes.  I do think there are many way of reacting to this environment.  Certainly one way is to dream -- to dream of other thngs: different places, different loves.  Jack knew he was different.  That allowed him to see beyond his current place in the world. 

Ennis reacted differently.  He initially did not want to view himself as any different from those around him.  He wanted so much to conform -- to be accepted -- to be like everyone else.

Jack's dreaming was infectuous.  It opened Ennis's eyes to love.  He too was different.   But he could not free himself totally to follow the dream.

Two similar backgrounds.  Two different outlooks.  Both wanted the same thing.  One wanted to stretch the limits and dare; the other wanted to protect what little they had. 

Both were in love.


 

I swear not a day goes by that I don't tear up here. Beautiful!

[tpe]

I swear not a day goes by that I don't tear up here. Beautiful!

Me too.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

You know, it ain't right that your posts can make me choke up like this :'( Any more discussions like this and I'm going to be crying from the very first meeting.....

This is the first time I've come across this thread.  I must agree with you NoReins.  After all this time, I'm getting choked up here. :\'(