Topic: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?

[lamusica]

Yes, I'm an incurable romantic, also.  Twenty years becomes a habit.  Twenty years establishes a pattern that becomes a part of a person and is very difficult to break.  There would have to be a terrible reason for Jack to break the Ennis habit.  I can't for the life of me think of anything that owuld have made him give up Ennis for all time.

[tpe]

Yes, I'm an incurable romantic, also.  Twenty years becomes a habit.  Twenty years establishes a pattern that becomes a part of a person and is very difficult to break.  There would have to be a terrible reason for Jack to break the Ennis habit.  I can't for the life of me think of anything that owuld have made him give up Ennis for all time.

The story breaks off prematurely, when there was a possibility of perhaps bringing things to a head.  It becomes an article of faith.

[lamusica]

If Jack hadn't died, and if Jack had responded to Ennis's last postcard that, yes, he would meet him in November, perhaps they would have continued their last conversation ( argument) and something might have been settled.  Maybe, at long last, Ennis would have capitulated, partly, if not fully, and made some more satisfactory arrangements with Jack.  Of course, with Jack dead, this is a mute point.  We can only conjecture about this.  But, I still feel that nothing short of death would have split them totally and permanently.  Given enough time without Jack, I believe Ennis would have compromised.

[tpe]

If Jack hadn't died, and if Jack had responded to Ennis's last postcard that, yes, he would meet him in November, perhaps they would have continued their last conversation ( argument) and something might have been settled.  Maybe, at long last, Ennis would have capitulated, partly, if not fully, and made some more satisfactory arrangements with Jack.  Of course, with Jack dead, this is a mute point.  We can only conjecture about this.  But, I still feel that nothing short of death would have split them totally and permanently.  Given enough time without Jack, I believe Ennis would have compromised.

It is hard for me to think of Ennis giving in, but surely even Ennis said that he couldn't stand it anymore (at least in the movie).  Cracks have started to show.  Perhaps Jack should have shown a bit more patience...

[welshwitch]

The ovious reply (obvious to me at least) would have been, "All right then, what are you going to do about it?" which would have thrown the responsibility back on Ennis to put up or shut up. In fact he apparently drove away with no decision having been made.

[tpe]

The ovious reply (obvious to me at least) would have been, "All right then, what are you going to do about it?" which would have thrown the responsibility back on Ennis to put up or shut up. In fact he apparently drove away with no decision having been made.

I had wondered though if the status quo had become less stable for Ennis.  After that confrontation, it is hard for me to think that nothing was changed.  After all, Proulx did indicated that they "torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news."

[welshwitch]

The "almost" applies to both of them, though, so either or both could have felt that to some degree things had changed irrevocably. Ennis doesn't follow up his statement, apparently, and neither does Jack - the look on his face when he watches Ennis drive away can be seen as frustration, despair,anger, so many things.

[lamusica]

I agree that the cracks are beginning to show, but it takes a long time for cracks to cause a true rift.  I don't know if Ennis could have/ would have changed. I don't know if Jack should have been more patient with Ennis.  It just seems to me that this argument is one of many smaller ones they probably had had ( see ss) and weathered.  How long they would have kept up their arrangement is questionable, but things do change. While Ennis didn't seem capable ( or willing) of change, Jack could have changed.  He might have left Lureen ( as he told his dad he was planning to do with Randall).  Jack might have moved closer to Ennis. However, death took care of those possibilities.

[welshwitch]

I sue Jack could have moved back to Lightning Flat as he'd said he'd do, with or without some of the Newsome money. If he'd gone alone rather than with Randall, he'd have been nearer Ennis and more able to see him - but of course that might have make Ennis feel that Jack was crowding him and made him even more twitchy.

[tpe]

The "almost" applies to both of them, though, so either or both could have felt that to some degree things had changed irrevocably. Ennis doesn't follow up his statement, apparently, and neither does Jack - the look on his face when he watches Ennis drive away can be seen as frustration, despair,anger, so many things.

I agree.  It may have been an infinitesimal perturbation, but we know that such small changes may move mountains.  I think the ground on which the status quo of their relationship stood was not as solid as before, and had Jack lived, perhaps, there would have been some final accomodation.

 

[tpe]

I agree that the cracks are beginning to show, but it takes a long time for cracks to cause a true rift.  I don't know if Ennis could have/ would have changed. I don't know if Jack should have been more patient with Ennis.  It just seems to me that this argument is one of many smaller ones they probably had had ( see ss) and weathered.  How long they would have kept up their arrangement is questionable, but things do change. While Ennis didn't seem capable ( or willing) of change, Jack could have changed.  He might have left Lureen ( as he told his dad he was planning to do with Randall).  Jack might have moved closer to Ennis. However, death took care of those possibilities.

Ennis is certainly the difficult question here.  It was Jack's challenge to convince Ennis that taking risks was better than living a life of fear.  Ironically, he probably succeeded in demonstrating this to Ennis by his own death/murder.  According to the calcuated risk, it would seem that Jack had lost.  But in truth, it was Ennis who realized in the end the true extent of how much greater was his own loss at not having taken a risk.

[lamusica]

I agree with everything you've said, tpe.  Have you ever wondered why Jack didn't just up and leave Lureen and either go home to Lightning Flats, or move somewhere else nearer to Ennis?  I have wondered this often.  Since Jack is willing to take risks for what he wants ( going to Mexico, for instance, for sex), why didn't he take this big risk to get to Ennis? Jack seemed so footloose and fancy free, but he stayed in a rather miserable situation for a lot of years, all the while yearning to be closer to Ennis.  Still, he settled for what he had and bitched about it.  This confuses me a bit.   

[manhattangirl]

I agree with everything you've said, tpe.  Have you ever wondered why Jack didn't just up and leave Lureen and either go home to Lightning Flats, or move somewhere else nearer to Ennis?  I have wondered this often.  Since Jack is willing to take risks for what he wants ( going to Mexico, for instance, for sex), why didn't he take this big risk to get to Ennis? Jack seemed so footloose and fancy free, but he stayed in a rather miserable situation for a lot of years, all the while yearning to be closer to Ennis.  Still, he settled for what he had and bitched about it.  This confuses me a bit.  

Thank you!   That is on question I've asked myself over and over.    Jack's alway said his father in law would buy him off.  Jack had the means and the opportunity to get out, and set up life anywhere he wanted.  Why didn't he? 

Then I ask myself, did he know to upset the delicate balance that kept him and Ennis together might be ruin if he did anything to change it.    Was it Jack's own fear that kept in this hellish situation, (his marriage to Lureen)? 

[lamusica]

I think the "delicate balance" thing is real.  Jack could never be sure how Ennis would react.  Had he moved closer to Ennis, Ennis may have felt threatened -- felt as if people would notice them together -- how much time they spent together, where they went, etc.  This might have made Ennis back off, which is exactly the opposite of what Jack wanted.  Sometimes what you have is a sure thing and, while not perfect, may be the best you can do at the time.  Maybe Jack was jsut biding time.  However, fate caught up with him.

[tpe]

I agree with everything you've said, tpe.  Have you ever wondered why Jack didn't just up and leave Lureen and either go home to Lightning Flats, or move somewhere else nearer to Ennis?  I have wondered this often.  Since Jack is willing to take risks for what he wants ( going to Mexico, for instance, for sex), why didn't he take this big risk to get to Ennis? Jack seemed so footloose and fancy free, but he stayed in a rather miserable situation for a lot of years, all the while yearning to be closer to Ennis.  Still, he settled for what he had and bitched about it.  This confuses me a bit.   

I think he did this because he thought Ennis wanted it this way.  To have moved any closer would perhaps been construed as an attempt to change the status quo, and I think Jack really didn't want to force the issue with an unwilling Ennis.

In the end, it was Jack's intention to move back to LF, apparently with Randall.  Was this a direct challenge to Ennis, I wonder?

To return to the original topic, I am sure it crossed Jack's mind during his last moments with Ennis that the greatest risk of all was to move on with someone else.  To have closed the door on the hope of a sweet life with Ennis probably killed Jack.

[welshwitch]

The problem with "I honestly can't stand this any more, Jack" is that it's Ennis, not Jack, who's created the situation he can't stand. If when you can't fix it you have to stand it, does the opposite also apply? In that case since Ennis can't stand it he is the one who will have to fix it, but he'll have to fix it having heard Jack's declaration that he can't make it on a few high-altitude f**ks a year and resents the short leash he's been kept on.

Ennis's options look limited - either to give in and give Jack what he wants or to give up. So since he sends the postcard about November, he clearly hasn't given up - is he going to give in? Or, being Ennis, is he just hoping to go on because he will, in the end, stand it if he has to?

[manhattangirl]

"I can't stand this any more, Jack" is Ennis only confession to the truth.   He would look to Jack to redeem him and make things alright, again.  He himself couldn't fix it or stand it.  He was waiting for November.   

[tpe]

The problem with "I honestly can't stand this any more, Jack" is that it's Ennis, not Jack, who's created the situation he can't stand. If when you can't fix it you have to stand it, does the opposite also apply? In that case since Ennis can't stand it he is the one who will have to fix it, but he'll have to fix it having heard Jack's declaration that he can't make it on a few high-altitude f**ks a year and resents the short leash he's been kept on.

Ennis's options look limited - either to give in and give Jack what he wants or to give up. So since he sends the postcard about November, he clearly hasn't given up - is he going to give in? Or, being Ennis, is he just hoping to go on because he will, in the end, stand it if he has to?

Yes.  In this scene, Ennis was fighting with himself as much as he was fighting with Jack, correct?  That was what made it much more intense for him.  I think Jack understood this at the end of the scene.

[tpe]

"I can't stand this any more, Jack" is Ennis only confession to the truth.   

It was perhaps the closest he ever came to admitting the intensity of his love while Jack was still alive.