Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines  (Read 247939 times)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #390 on: Jul 09, 2007, 07:03 AM »
Can't for the life of me see why Jack let Ennis get away with this coffee pot handle excuse. Jack had to be frusrated at Ennis's paranoia in Riverton, Wy. He could never live  in peace with Ennis there. But they had 49 other states  ( and Mexico )to choose from. Ennis need'nt be limited to Riverton. Jack suggesing Texas was too obvious IMO, it gave Ennis too many reasons to refuse. What if Jack had suggested Denver? What would be Ennis's excuse then? What better time to stop playing with the coffee pot and move some where else with a more open-minded population?







J
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #391 on: Jul 09, 2007, 07:41 AM »
I don't know if this has been mentioned (if so, sorry). I watched it a few nights ago and "We ought to go to Mexico" stood out at me. When Jack says "We ought to go to Mexico" he's just saying we ought to go where it's okay for us to be together. It happens down there and there aren't men with tire irons waiting to hunt you down and kill you. Or at least that's how I saw it this particular viewing.

I initially thought it was rather odd that Jack would bring up the cold at this point -- it seemed that he was initially using this as a way of masking his disappointment at not being able to meet in the summer.  But I had wondered whether there was a double meaning behind this, and I think you are right LJN, in pointing out the above message underneath the discussion on Mexico. 


Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #392 on: Jul 09, 2007, 07:42 AM »
When he talks about walking round the coffee-pot looking for the handle, he's joking, but actually describing himself quite well - going round in circles getting nowhere, sticking with the familiar, doing only what he knows he can do.

This too is a double meaning.   And quite true, I should add.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #393 on: Jul 09, 2007, 07:47 AM »
Can't for the life of me see why Jack let Ennis get away with this coffee pot handle excuse. Jack had to be frusrated at Ennis's paranoia in Riverton, Wy. He could never live  in peace with Ennis there. But they had 49 other states  ( and Mexico )to choose from. Ennis need'nt be limited to Riverton. Jack suggesing Texas was too obvious IMO, it gave Ennis too many reasons to refuse. What if Jack had suggested Denver? What would be Ennis's excuse then? What better time to stop playing with the coffee pot and move some where else with a more open-minded population?

J

Very good point, aintfoolin.  The excuse is actually very typical of Ennis -- we glimpse the same thing during the conversation about getting a new job with the power company.  I guess the underlying message here is that he didn't want to change -- didn't want to make any more concessions beyond meeting upm in the mountains every so often.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #394 on: Jul 09, 2007, 09:11 AM »
Your right Tpe, The man did not deal well with change. Perhaps a fear of the unknown was at the core. What Jack was asking were not baby steps for Ennis ,  but huge leaps that proved too scary to get past for him. Although I feel at times that he was not properly challenged.


It occured to me while watching the scene in which The shirts and postcard are hanging inside Ennis's closet door and he straightens/buttons Jack's collar and does the same with the postcard. Perhaps this is tied in with him with " tent don't look right" and he straightens that too. Jack says " leave it be , I anit goin nowhere" Ennis maybe thinking that Jack has never really gone anywhere except his closet. Even though Jack is not there physically alive, his spirit remains alive and well in Ennis's closet, and that's real enough for Ennis.

Jack was'nt about strict order and total perfection... Ennis was. Probably would tell Ennis to let the postcard be . So what if it's crooked, big deal  "it aint goin nowhere"  :*( :*(:c)  He was too cool and Ennis knew it.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #395 on: Jul 09, 2007, 09:27 AM »
It occured to me while watching the scene in which The shirts and postcard are hanging inside Ennis's closet door and he straightens/buttons Jack's collar and does the same with the postcard. Perhaps this is tied in with him with " tent don't look right" and he straightens that too. Jack says " leave it be , I anit goin nowhere" Ennis maybe thinking that Jack has never really gone anywhere except his closet. Even though Jack is not there physically alive, his spirit remains alive and well in Ennis's closet, and that's real enough for Ennis.

Jack was'nt about strict order and total perfection... Ennis was. Probably would tell Ennis to let the postcard be . So what if it's crooked, big deal  "it aint goin nowhere"  :*( :*(:c)  He was too cool and Ennis knew it.

How interesting!  I must admit that it somehow seems to resonate with Ennis's fussiness over the tent -- the shirts have to look right!   :\'(


Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #396 on: Jul 09, 2007, 11:27 AM »
Great observation aintfoolin'. Ennis fussing making things just so for Jack  :\'(
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #397 on: Jul 09, 2007, 04:52 PM »
These posts are wonderful!  About Jack bringing up Mexico (I always saw it as Jack hoping maybe Ennis would think he meant Mexico as where's it's warm, but he also meant where they could be more free) and about Ennis's fussiness over making things all in order and straight.

This continues to intrigue me, finding new things all the time.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #398 on: Jul 10, 2007, 07:00 AM »
An additional detail on Ennis's fussiness in the last scene: he adjusts the postcard to make it look right.  Again, he just wanted everything to be as they should.


Offline jackster

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #399 on: Jul 10, 2007, 07:53 AM »
. . . Ennis's . . . just wanted everything to be as they should.

Ennis’s need to have things right – may be OT here, but I wonder how much of this need stems from having lost his parents, the things a child holds most dear, at a young age? Did he grow up having the feeling that if THEY had just been more careful, had paid more attention, that they would not have died in an accident of their own cause? How much does this color his whole life and his view personal risk? e.g. – a life with Jack.
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #400 on: Jul 10, 2007, 12:39 PM »
Ennis’s need to have things right – may be OT here, but I wonder how much of this need stems from having lost his parents, the things a child holds most dear, at a young age? Did he grow up having the feeling that if THEY had just been more careful, had paid more attention, that they would not have died in an accident of their own cause? How much does this color his whole life and his view of personal risk? e.g. – a life with Jack.

So true.  Undoubtedly he held on tight to what little he had, since he had had so little in his earlier years after parents were gone.  But somehow this didn't translate to holding on to Jack.  Too unknown and too risky.

kathy
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #401 on: Jul 10, 2007, 02:37 PM »
These posts are wonderful!  About Jack bringing up Mexico (I always saw it as Jack hoping maybe Ennis would think he meant Mexico as where's it's warm, but he also meant where they could be more free) and about Ennis's fussiness over making things all in order and straight.

This continues to intrigue me, finding new things all the time.

kathy

I feel this too. Texas was warm, so is Mexico. Jack saw Mexico as a place where they could be more free in a more relaxed envirement. Jack no doubt had rodeo injuries ie..( he got out while he could still walk) and the warm weather perhaps helped this.
Sleeping on the ground in cold, damp mountain air in Wy.  could not have been comfortable as he got older.

 Jackster, your right.
Ennis's meticulous nature no doubt had to do with experiencing accidental death of parents but also the death of Earl at a very young age. These two incidents I feel did color his view of personal risks Caused him not to tempt fate if you will, with Jack or his work ethic while married to Alma. Once he found a sure thing, he did'nt venture much from it.  Through the years , his style of dress spoke volumes about this . ( blue and white shirts were his favs as we saw several of them in his closets , boots and jeans and he wore them well) ...but,This could be a good or bad personality trait , Good in its stability, bad in its stubborness when others close to him suffer because of it. Perhaps a balance was in order here.as it was on BBM. There, it had it's advantages Having Jack's meals ready on time, worked (and played) well with Jack as a co-worker and partnership, fixing the tent etc.., providing for Jack's needs ,and dessires. and with Alma, preparing for marrage by earning money that summer for a place to live, but had disadvantages when Ennis did'nt adjust to the important real changes and challenges in his life.

..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #402 on: Jul 10, 2007, 04:24 PM »
Ennis’s need to have things right – may be OT here, but I wonder how much of this need stems from having lost his parents, the things a child holds most dear, at a young age? Did he grow up having the feeling that if THEY had just been more careful, had paid more attention, that they would not have died in an accident of their own cause? How much does this color his whole life and his view personal risk? e.g. – a life with Jack.

We can extract a double meaning in support of this from Ennis's own reply to Jack at the beginning of their time together: "They run themselves off".  I think Ennis did grow up feeling somthing like what you say here.


Offline liketheyallknow

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #403 on: Aug 13, 2007, 03:53 PM »
These posts are wonderful!  About Jack bringing up Mexico (I always saw it as Jack hoping maybe Ennis would think he meant Mexico as where's it's warm, but he also meant where they could be more free) and about Ennis's fussiness over making things all in order and straight.

This continues to intrigue me, finding new things all the time.

kathy

Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!

I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight',  what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles  - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them.  There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #404 on: Aug 13, 2007, 04:41 PM »
Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!

I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight',  what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles  - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them.  There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.

liketheyallknow, welcome to the forum.  And no, you certainly didn't mess up.  I had also read a possible significance of the parents missing a curve, but you say it here beautifully!




Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #405 on: Aug 13, 2007, 10:48 PM »
Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!

I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight',  what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles  - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them.  There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.

Welcome, welcome, LTAK.  This is fascinating, about Ennis wanting to be "straight," yet going straight is what killed his parents!  Intense.  This film has so many layers. 

Probably this is more in the symbolism thread (sorry, can't direct you there) but fits well in what we've been talking about here.

I look forward to seeing you in more of these discussion threads, and everywhere else.

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #406 on: Aug 14, 2007, 07:32 AM »
Well, in a sense, there is both symbol and double meaning in what liketheyallknow had said.   As I said, I somehow had a similar vague feeling in the back of my mind about this...

 

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #407 on: Aug 14, 2007, 09:02 AM »
Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!

I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight',  what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles  - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them.  There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.
#$#   Beautiful post, liketheyallknow.  :)  This is an excellent example of the symbolism and double meanings that layer all of BBM, thank you!


Welcome, welcome, LTAK.  This is fascinating, about Ennis wanting to be "straight," yet going straight is what killed his parents!  Intense.  kathy

Makes for another fascinating discussion.

I guess Jack was Ennis' curve in the road; he was only able to handle the turn for so long before he couldn't hold traction anymore. 

Would you consider Ennis to be Jack's curve in the road as well?  What direction would his life had gone, if he hadn't given his heart away permanently to a repressed and stubborn ranch hand in '63?  I think we might agree, regardless, that Jack was more than willing to take that curve just as it was, if Ennis hadn't fought him on it.

The tragedy is that in the end Jack is the one who died when they couldn't navigate the turns together.

All these months later I'm still learning new things from ej member's discussions.    ^f^  No wonder BBM stays alive in our hearts and minds.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #408 on: Aug 14, 2007, 03:36 PM »
Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."

No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.

..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #409 on: Aug 14, 2007, 03:45 PM »
Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."

No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.



Another alternative double meaning: "What should I do to get you, Ennis del Mar?"  We of course know that there was nothing she could do.

Offline liketheyallknow

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #410 on: Aug 14, 2007, 04:44 PM »
Welcome, welcome, LTAK.  This is fascinating, about Ennis wanting to be "straight," yet going straight is what killed his parents!  Intense.  This film has so many layers. 

Probably this is more in the symbolism thread (sorry, can't direct you there) but fits well in what we've been talking about here.

I look forward to seeing you in more of these discussion threads, and everywhere else.

kathy

Thanks for the welcome Kathy ! This film sure makes you think on several levels simultaneously.  Look forward to discussing more.

Offline liketheyallknow

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #411 on: Aug 14, 2007, 05:11 PM »
#$#   Beautiful post, liketheyallknow.  :)  This is an excellent example of the symbolism and double meanings that layer all of BBM, thank you!


Makes for another fascinating discussion.

I guess Jack was Ennis' curve in the road; he was only able to handle the turn for so long before he couldn't hold traction anymore. 

Would you consider Ennis to be Jack's curve in the road as well?  What direction would his life had gone, if he hadn't given his heart away permanently to a repressed and stubborn ranch hand in '63?  I think we might agree, regardless, that Jack was more than willing to take that curve just as it was, if Ennis hadn't fought him on it.

The tragedy is that in the end Jack is the one who died when they couldn't navigate the turns together.

All these months later I'm still learning new things from ej member's discussions.    ^f^  No wonder BBM stays alive in our hearts and minds.

Good question, MississaugaRed. I think Jack did not have a pre-planned stereotypical future in mind, as Ennis did. (Although another point is that Ennis had not consciously thought his future through - he was just following in-grained tradition). So Jack was better able to take life's events, and people, as he found them rather than seeing them as interfering with a pre-determined vision of his future. He was therefore better equipped for dealing with curves in the road - less likely to be surprised than Ennis, and more likely to grasp opportunities.  Put another way, unlike Ennis, I don't think Jack had a straight path planned from which to be deflected in terms of direction.  Perhaps his only plan was to find love, in whatever form. Ennis had not consciously hoped for an intimate relationship with another man, Jack probably had. Was Ennis the curve in Jacks road? Ennis is a sudden and profound event that Jack had not expected, but probably had hoped for.   So perhaps it was just the intensity of his feelings for Ennis that threw Jack, and the fact that he'd found deep love so young.
All in my opinion!

you say: The tragedy is that in the end Jack is the one who died when they couldn't navigate the turns together.

How true and how sad. If Ennis could have broadened his field of view, even a little, they might have made it.
So sad.

Offline liketheyallknow

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #412 on: Aug 14, 2007, 05:36 PM »
Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."

No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.



Yes Jack had him, Cassie clearly never would (Alma jnr knew this judging by her facial expression in the bar when Ennis and Cassie where dancing). Other meanings (maybe not all double meanings): Cassie didn't get Ennis in lots of ways - she made assumptions about Ennis, she never really knew him, she never understood him (only one person did). 'I don't get you' says a lot about Cassie and the culture they lived in. A pretty and lively young woman - she must have thought she could attract any man. Perhaps Cassie was also saying, she 'didn't get herself '- why hadn't her charms worked? 'I don't get you' = her idea of normal rules doesn't seem to be working here.

Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #413 on: Aug 14, 2007, 11:14 PM »
Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."

No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.

Excellent.  Exactly so.

kathy
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #414 on: Aug 15, 2007, 03:35 PM »
Yes Jack had him, Cassie clearly never would (Alma jnr knew this judging by her facial expression in the bar when Ennis and Cassie where dancing). Other meanings (maybe not all double meanings): Cassie didn't get Ennis in lots of ways - she made assumptions about Ennis, she never really knew him, she never understood him (only one person did). 'I don't get you' says a lot about Cassie and the culture they lived in. A pretty and lively young woman - she must have thought she could attract any man. Perhaps Cassie was also saying, she 'didn't get herself '- why hadn't her charms worked? 'I don't get you' = her idea of normal rules doesn't seem to be working here.

Cassie unbeknown to her was not dealing with your average hetero cowboy here. Ennis had secrets. The way he dumped her was not flattering, but he accomplished what he set out to do, effectively putting her off the scent. He was  never interested in long-term goals with her, but could'nt tell her why. In any case she got the message.
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Offline liketheyallknow

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #415 on: Aug 15, 2007, 06:52 PM »
Yes aintfoolin, Ennis's relationship with Cassie was a sham, a lie, but she told him a truth ' Girls don't fall in love with fun'. What double and deeper meanings are there to this line? Ennis was left thinking hard about what Cassie said. Was he finally beginnng to realises that he, Ennis, and the way he lived his life, had an impact on other people? - both Jack as he was sitting there eating his apple pie, and Cassie who he'd also upset. Did a light come in Ennis's head when she said that line? What did he think she meant? Sadly it was already too late for him to put any new-found self awareness to good use in his relationship with Jack.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #416 on: Aug 16, 2007, 06:38 AM »
  Ennis had an honest, unspoiled ,and gentle response to her agressiveness.  ( a footrub?) Any other man would be flatterd to have this beauty approach them in this way.  She had to coax him to stay , coax him to the dancefloor, and  later found that Ennis did'nt talk much.  But she could work with this. Cassie was the one , as with Jack who had to coax Ennis out of his shell.
During this courtship I think Ennis let Cassie lead. She fell in love with him eventually. "Girls don't fall in love with fun" is in response to Ennis saying " I probably was'nt no fun anyway"  Ennis himself really was'nt having much fun with her .
She was not his  kind of fun, Jack was. Like Jack, she had gotten past the fun stage. She was seriously  in love with him and was looking at long-term possiblities with him., But Ennis never had any intentions of getting any closer to her than he already had. Been there, done that, and did'nt want it again.  How could he ever explain to Cassie that he wanted a man instead of her.  This relationship was doomed from the start,imo just like his other experience with a woman after meeting Jack,...Alma.  He gave up a marriage and a potential marriage to these women, but continued to see Jack.   That's very telling. MO
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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #417 on: Aug 16, 2007, 06:46 AM »
  Ennis had an honest, unspoiled ,and gentle response to her agressiveness.  ( a footrub?) Any other man would be flatterd to have this beauty approach them in this way.  She had to coax him to stay , coax him to the dancefloor, and  later found that Ennis did'nt talk much.  But she could work with this. Cassie was the one , as with Jack who had to coax Ennis out of his shell.
During this courtship I think Ennis let Cassie lead. She fell in love with him eventually. "Girls don't fall in love with fun" is in response to Ennis saying " I probably was'nt no fun anyway"  Ennis himself really was'nt having much fun with her .
She was not his  kind of fun, Jack was. Like Jack, she had gotten past the fun stage. She was seriously  in love with him and was looking at long-term possiblities with him., But Ennis never had any intentions of getting any closer to her than he already had. Been there, done that, and did'nt want it again.  How could he ever explain to Cassie that he wanted a man instead of her.  This relationship was doomed from the start,imo just like his other experience with a woman after meeting Jack,...Alma.  He gave up a marriage and a potential marriage to these women, but continued to see Jack.   That's very telling. MO

Oh, I totally agree with you.  Great post.

Offline liketheyallknow

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #418 on: Aug 16, 2007, 04:54 PM »
  Ennis had an honest, unspoiled ,and gentle response to her agressiveness.   ( a footrub?) Any other man would be flatterd to have this beauty approach them in this way.  She had to coax him to stay , coax him to the dancefloor, and  later found that Ennis did'nt talk much.  But she could work with this. Cassie was the one , as with Jack who had to coax Ennis out of his shell.


I like this viewpoint - Ennis was a really nice guy the way he responded, plus I'd never thought of Cassie as aggressive, more persistant, but I suppose her approach to Ennis was straight for the kill,  compared to Jack's patient understanding approach.

During this courtship I think Ennis let Cassie lead. She fell in love with him eventually. "Girls don't fall in love with fun" is in response to Ennis saying " I probably was'nt no fun anyway"  Ennis himself really was'nt having much fun with her .
She was not his  kind of fun, Jack was. Like Jack, she had gotten past the fun stage. She was seriously  in love with him and was looking at long-term possiblities with him.,


Thanks for shining some light on this aintfoolin. So Ennis was thinking he had to be fun for Cassie (too much effort) not so much effort being with Jack - could be himself - kind of.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #419 on: Aug 17, 2007, 05:22 AM »
"Was probably no fun anyway, was I?" is on the surface just Ennis describing himself - not a very sociable guy, not the life and soul of the party, not frivolous. It's Alma who suggests taking Jack out - the thought never crosses Ennis's mind. It's Alma who wonders why Jack didn;t come in for a coffee, alma who wants to go to the church social, Cassie who wants to dance.....So to me it also says that he considers that women have to be amused, entertained, are in some ways less serious than men. It never occurs to him that Jack doesn't care whether or not he's fun to be with, because it's not an issue. Speaks volumes about the strength of their relationship, IMO.