Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[tpe]

I'm speechless here.  :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( Crying my eyes out.

Same here.  Thanks AF and orangetruck.

[tpe]

    I know y'all have moved on from this moment, but I just discovered this thread, and this scene always made my mind go into overdrive. I think the interaction between Ennis and Jack's mother both verbally and mainly through their silent looks, has so many hidden meanings. The pause before she puts the shirts in the bag brought up many different interpretations every time I saw this scene.
       Two ideas that always come back to mind with that pause is 1, maybe she thought she understood that Ennis was taking a piece of Jack with him in way of the shirt because he couldn't have his ashes, but then as she is putting them in the bag, maybe she notices that there are 2 shirts, and realizes that there is a story behind these shirts, and wishes to know the story, her son's story, but the pause is the sad realization that she knows she can never ask; she can never truly know her son.
      The 2nd, is quit simple. Maybe that pause while holding Jack's shirt before placing it in the bag is just her own quiet moment with all that is left of the Jack she loved. It's her own version of Ennis smelling the shirts and saying his goodbye to Jack, yet getting in one last scent of him. Sadly, she doesn't even get the simple luxury of having this moment alone. She can only stand there having this devastating moment quietly to herself, trying not to let her cold husband see her emotions. Hiding her emotions seemed to be something she had to do her whole life, just like Jack did.  I think there is a sadness in her when Ennis silently confirms this one connection with her son, yet she needs to Cherish this connection all the same; it's all she has left.

P.S. OrangeT, the connection between the river/force of nature is unbelievable, thank you. It gave me chills.

Oh jessicat, I think you cam very close to one of the things I have long considered here: that the pasue expressed a little reluctance from Mrs. Twist to part with the shirts, perhaps because she knew their significance.  But perhaps she realized that the shirts truly belonged to Ennis, in spite of how she felt...

[jessicat80]

Oh jessicat, I think you cam very close to one of the things I have long considered here: that the pasue expressed a little reluctance from Mrs. Twist to part with the shirts, perhaps because she knew their significance.  But perhaps she realized that the shirts truly belonged to Ennis, in spite of how she felt...

  Yes Thomas, because she knew their signifificance to Jack. When we loose someone, the things that meant a lot to them, become so much more important to us then the things that we personally cared about "before".

[orangetruck]

Oh jessicat, I think you cam very close to one of the things I have long considered here: that the pasue expressed a little reluctance from Mrs. Twist to part with the shirts, perhaps because she knew their significance.  But perhaps she realized that the shirts truly belonged to Ennis, in spite of how she felt...

I can definitely see this.. Good point. Just very hard to wrap a finger around. Ennis making a 'new friend' or having someone that understands or to talk with just loves to mock my idea of that ultimate relationship known as Ennis and Jack; the inability to bring that back. :\'(

[jessicat80]

I can definitely see this.. Good point. Just very hard to wrap a finger around. Ennis making a 'new friend' or having someone that understands or to talk with just loves to mock my idea of that ultimate relationship known as Ennis and Jack; the inability to bring that back. :\'(

         I agree OrangeT, I don't think Ennis could ever find someone with such a connection as he had with Jack, for many reasons, 2 of which are the ideas that we never truly love again as much as our first love, and also it's hard to compete with the ability to love we have as teenagers when we are still capable of the fantasy of perfection is others. But I also just believe that they were soulmates, if there is such a thing.
          But I think that was were the kindness from Jack's mother came from, I think she felt a true happiness that her son had felt such a connection with someone, even with it's problems; I don't believe she ever had that herself. I really felt like she wanted to talk to Ennis more. When he is leaving and she asks him to visit them again, I really felt she meant this. I really feel that, had Jack's dad not had been home at the time of Ennis' visit, this scene could have been so different.
            I really wonder if she would have pressed Ennis to find out more about her own son. When she asks him to come back some time, I always imagined him coming back after the eventual death of Jack's father, and Ennis taking Jack's, then elder, mother home with him to care for her; as Jack would have done.

[aintfoolin]

         I agree OrangeT, I don't think Ennis could ever find someone with such a connection as he had with Jack, for many reasons, 2 of which are the ideas that we never truly love again as much as our first love, and also it's hard to compete with the ability to love we have as teenagers when we are still capable of the fantasy of perfection is others. But I also just believe that they were soulmates, if there is such a thing.
          But I think that was were the kindness from Jack's mother came from, I think she felt a true happiness that her son had felt such a connection with someone, even with it's problems; I don't believe she ever had that herself. I really felt like she wanted to talk to Ennis more. When he is leaving and she asks him to visit them again, I really felt she meant this. I really feel that, had Jack's dad not had been home at the time of Ennis' visit, this scene could have been so different.
            I really wonder if she would have pressed Ennis to find out more about her own son. When she asks him to come back some time, I always imagined him coming back after the eventual death of Jack's father, and Ennis taking Jack's, then elder, mother home with him to care for her; as Jack would have done.

Wonderful post! I feel she meant for him to return too. There was a grateful , understanding, honesty in her and Ennis's eyes that a pact between them had been made. They will meet again sometime soon and talk of the one they both loved so dearly. Though Ennis did'nt have Jack there to talk to as a friend anymore, he had Jack's mom, truly the next best thing to having him back. They both had knowledge of him each of them needed to hear. Until that moment, I imagine some form of correspondence such as letters, post cards, etc. between them.

[orangetruck]

         I agree OrangeT, I don't think Ennis could ever find someone with such a connection as he had with Jack, for many reasons, 2 of which are the ideas that we never truly love again as much as our first love, and also it's hard to compete with the ability to love we have as teenagers when we are still capable of the fantasy of perfection is others. But I also just believe that they were soulmates, if there is such a thing.
          But I think that was were the kindness from Jack's mother came from, I think she felt a true happiness that her son had felt such a connection with someone, even with it's problems; I don't believe she ever had that herself. I really felt like she wanted to talk to Ennis more. When he is leaving and she asks him to visit them again, I really felt she meant this. I really feel that, had Jack's dad not had been home at the time of Ennis' visit, this scene could have been so different.
            I really wonder if she would have pressed Ennis to find out more about her own son. When she asks him to come back some time, I always imagined him coming back after the eventual death of Jack's father, and Ennis taking Jack's, then elder, mother home with him to care for her; as Jack would have done.

Oh beautiful. I agree. And everything she said and didn't say with her eyes made me feel a lot and left me hanging by some limbs. I'll bet the texture of the shirts being passed on burnt like Hell.

[myprivatejack]

Excuse me again if this subject has been already treated before,but,as the one of the dead sheep,it's good to "resuscitate"it...It's about the movie's poster,that has been very often compared with the one from "Titanic",as a symbol of a tragic love story;an impossible relationship that can't evelope itself for social reasons-different social classes in the late,same sex in the former...-.
I think that fairly more than this can be seen on it;the position of both protagonists,each of them looking at the contrary side.Could it mean that both of them must pretend they didn't know each other,to hide their love before society? And also,that they have always gone in different directions about the way of developing their relationship?.Different ways of seeing and living the feelings they had for each other...
And also the fact that Ennis is in first plane,almost covering Jack;could it mean that Ennis has always feel like protecting him,from social rules and misunderstanding? Or,simply,Jack appears as a kind of Ennis "protector angel",since he looks like something unreal,or from the other world,as revealing he's going to die?.Or Ennis figure has more importance because,somehow,his role is also more important,because all the story plot is around him and his denials?.Or,also,it's a mere way of reflecting that Ennis is,psychically and perhaps,most of the time,physically,on top-he's covering Jack-?.
I don't know if all this makes sense or,I repeat,it has been said formerly,but I'd be interested in your opinions.

[LuvJackNasty]

Great post MPJ! I had never looked at the poster quite like that before. I think all of the scenarios fit very well into that. They both were certainly strong but Ennis was more dominating (maybe not the right word) in that he set down the "rules". It could be that they were intertwined- an extension of the other.

[ksxks]

I like your interpretations also, MJP.  I always thought of it as rather yin/yang, but that would apply more if viewed from another angle.  But the way it is, with Ennis in front, lends it other meanings.

kathy

[tpe]

Excuse me again if this subject has been already treated before,but,as the one of the dead sheep,it's good to "resuscitate"it...It's about the movie's poster,that has been very often compared with the one from "Titanic",as a symbol of a tragic love story;an impossible relationship that can't evelope itself for social reasons-different social classes in the late,same sex in the former...-.
I think that fairly more than this can be seen on it;the position of both protagonists,each of them looking at the contrary side.Could it mean that both of them must pretend they didn't know each other,to hide their love before society? And also,that they have always gone in different directions about the way of developing their relationship?.Different ways of seeing and living the feelings they had for each other...
And also the fact that Ennis is in first plane,almost covering Jack;could it mean that Ennis has always feel like protecting him,from social rules and misunderstanding? Or,simply,Jack appears as a kind of Ennis "protector angel",since he looks like something unreal,or from the other world,as revealing he's going to die?.Or Ennis figure has more importance because,somehow,his role is also more important,because all the story plot is around him and his denials?.Or,also,it's a mere way of reflecting that Ennis is,psychically and perhaps,most of the time,physically,on top-he's covering Jack-?.
I don't know if all this makes sense or,I repeat,it has been said formerly,but I'd be interested in your opinions.

I did have a feeling that their not facing each other in the poster did signify something like what you said. 

One thing that did occur to me in the past: Ennis is seen entirely in profile whereas we see Jack in three-quarters view.  We get the sense that Jack faced the world a bit more head-on than Ennis.  But we see nonetheless that both of them are looking down, and NOT at the viewer.  It is as if they are not ready to meet the gaze of the world TOGETHER.

[myprivatejack]

I did have a feeling that their not facing each other in the poster did signify something like what you said. 

One thing that did occur to me in the past: Ennis is seen entirely in profile whereas we see Jack in three-quarters view.  We get the sense that Jack faced the world a bit more head-on than Ennis.  But we see nonetheless that both of them are looking down, and NOT at the viewer.  It is as if they are not ready to meet the gaze of the world TOGETHER.

Yes,as if they were hiding from the world's gaze,as if-as I told before-they were pretending they're not walking in the same way...And of course,as you say in this case,as if they weren't ready to expose themselves to this gaze together,reveling their true relationship.

[LuvJackNasty]

Great posts guys! I love all of these thoughts about the poster. After all of this time and there is still more to figure out! 

[tpe]

Yes,as if they were hiding from the world's gaze,as if-as I told before-they were pretending they're not walking in the same way...And of course,as you say in this case,as if they weren't ready to expose themselves to this gaze together,reveling their true relationship.

Exactly.  In the eyes, we usually glimpse the truth.

Thanks also, LJN. 

[myprivatejack]

What draws my attention the most about this poster is Jack's position;it looks like a little unnatural,because you can't see his shoulders or part of his body,being behind Ennis as he's...As I said in my first post,he seems to be an unreal being,kind of out of this world,as if he was protecting Ennis even once dead...The truth is that they aren't in equal position and conditions in this poster,no?;for example,in "Titanic" one,Leonardo DiCaprio is behind Kate Wislet and we can't see his body,yes.But he's somehow embracing her,protecting her,in a more natural posture,more "carnal",to say it in some way...Jack,on the contrary,is only behind Ennis,but without physical contact with him,as only being close to him.Is it a kind of showing thatJack will always be with Ennis in a spiritual,affective way?.

[tpe]

What draws my attention the most about this poster is Jack's position;it looks like a little unnatural,because you can't see his shoulders or part of his body,being behind Ennis as he's...As I said in my first post,he seems to be an unreal being,kind of out of this world,as if he was protecting Ennis even once dead...The truth is that they aren't in equal position and conditions in this poster,no?;for example,in "Titanic" one,Leonardo DiCaprio is behind Kate Wislet and we can't see his body,yes.But he's somehow embracing her,protecting her,in a more natural posture,more "carnal",to say it in some way...Jack,on the contrary,is only behind Ennis,but without physical contact with him,as only being close to him.Is it a kind of showing thatJack will always be with Ennis in a spiritual,affective way?.

Yes, there is a hint of alienation in the BBM poster, and I agree with your last statement.  It seems that Jack is apart but nonetheless "hovering" just behind Ennis.  He does almost look disembodied, no?

[jessicat80]

You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.

Any thoughts?

[orangetruck]

You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.

Any thoughts?

I like where you're going with this, jess. I see what you're saying. On the other side of the token, I see: Jack having the optimism, the drive and faith to carry their love/relationship along, feels its value and is able to bear the depth and risk of falling.. possibly forever or until death. Whichever may come first. There's a frustrating weight attached to Jack. Ennis might be able to smirk because while he isn't happy with the circumstances or with how hindered the love affair 'had' to be, fear of falling for another man makes his options very simple; to simply work, get married.. later support kids, and always act straight was a layer bound to burn (by losing a secret love?) in order for him to find himself, the self with a free will. Hence the naive, almost carefree smirk and wince in his eye in the poster. Jack on the other hand knew his heart and the love that was necessary.
     When it comes down to it I like to think the responsibility of the finite, material world (save matters of his two kids which are of course important) is much lighter than, and even laughable in comparison to, that of staying true to one's own heart. Ennis can be seen brushing off things trivial, whereas Jack may be looking down at his heart and the unity aching to manifest between it and his friends'.
I believe they were meant to fit together and grow in order to move forward - - both miracle and tradegy being both time and place.

Depressing really, having such a brilliant reminder of this love story in the instance of a simple poster, yeah?

 

 

[babytammy7]

You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.

Any thoughts?

OMG Jess, I always wondered about that!! Ennis seems to be so at peace here...Maybe because he at the very end found what love means and what he and Jack had was love? I don't know...because that half smirk looks like a sad one, and he's looking at the floor too...

[jessicat80]

Yes Orange, I love how much speculation and emotions can rise from a simple poster...but then, it's not really simple, is it

I thought that too Tammy, that maybe Ennis is suppossed to be at peace at the end.


What I find interesting though, is the fact that they are young in the poster, so he wouldn't have found his peace yet.

I started thinking, just now looking at it again, that maybe the shot is suppossed to take place before they met. Like Jack is sad and miserable because he already senses that he desires something forbidden, while Ennis is under the false pretence that all is well...he's got a possible job oportunity, he's engaged to Alma, he thinks he's happy...

Maybe the poster sort of hints that these emotions are felt by them now, but they are about to meet each other on this mountain, and realize what they believed to be their fate before, might not be it at all. 

[orangetruck]

Yes Orange, I love how much speculation and emotions can rise from a simple poster...but then, it's not really simple, is it

I thought that too Tammy, that maybe Ennis is suppossed to be at peace at the end.


What I find interesting though, is the fact that they are young in the poster, so he wouldn't have found his peace yet.

I started thinking, just now looking at it again, that maybe the shot is suppossed to take place before they met. Like Jack is sad and miserable because he already senses that he desires something forbidden, while Ennis is under the false pretence that all is well...he's got a possible job oportunity, he's engaged to Alma, he thinks he's happy...

Maybe the poster sort of hints that these emotions are felt by them now, but they are about to meet each other on this mountain, and realize what they believed to be their fate before, might not be it at all. 

 

[tpe]

You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.

Any thoughts?

Very interesting, Jess.  I admit that I had not thought about it this way.  For some reason, I have read sadness in both their faces -- and an enforced need to keep apart.  Perhaps this is more reflective of myself and that the poster allows one to read it depending on one's state of mind?  There is indeed what can be seen to be a formative smile on Ennis, although I had not seen it that way until you said it here...

[lamusica]

I never used to like this poster.  Neither Ennis nor Jack looks like himself.  They look like city boys masquerading as cowboys, all cleaned up, shaven perfectly, matching jackets.  But, as time has gone by, I look at it as more of a piece of art.  The way they are looking downwards, but Ennis to the left and Jack to the right, immediately gives the impression of the yin/yang, the good/evil, the male/female.  To me, when I look at it closely now, it brings to mind all the dichotomies in the story, all the confusion (personality, sexual confusion, women vs men).  So, it has become symbolic to me, rather than a true representation of the two characters.  So now I see some sort of beauty in it, and, with Heath's passing, it will forever be a picture of his youth.

[ksxks]

I love all the perspectives on this poster.  Lamusica, I always saw it as a yin/yang thing also; and I saw it as a "publicity" thing, not really the characters per se.  Which leads me to wonder, did they pose for this, together like this, or did they edit Jack into the picture?  As they edited the mountain backdrop into it.  If they did pose for it, I sure would like to see the rejects in the series.

kathy

[ethan]

Interesting discussion on the poster and all the perspectives make sense. I remember reading somewhere about the design of the BBM poster and just googled

"When it came time to design the poster for the film, [co-president of Focus Features and frequent Lee collaborator James] Schamus didn't research posters of famous Westerns for ideas. He looked at the posters of the 50 most romantic movies ever made. "If you look at our poster," he says, "you can see traces of our inspiration, 'Titanic'."

Other than the inspiration from Titanic, the eyes caught my attention. They are closed to opposite direction. Eyes are window of the soul. Their closed eyes have their fate sealed.

[jackster]

The graphic quality of this image has always been stunning to me. Yes, lamusica it’s a bit of an A&F version of cowboys, but this is the 21st century so I can forgive. I’m just guessing, but in this era of techno-graphics I would imagine that the entire image is composed from various stills and shots, certainly not posed as shown. The artists had a field day playing with the sunlight and the way it sensuously plays on the hat brims (the way they intertwine), jacket seams, and even Jack’s lips.

I’m using a more complete version to show the entire scene here.


I see the pose for both boys as sort of an “Aw, shucks, ma’am” pose, sort of a Gary Cooper pose, masculine, but in a shy, unassuming manner. Not the John Wayne, guns blazing western bravado.

The mountains (of course there had to be mountains) mirrored almost perfectly in the still waters, to me reflect the reverse image of their secret lives. One real, one just imaginary, but which one is which? Behind them lay the billowing clouds, symbolizing the tremendous, volcanic energy of their relationship

I see in the slight smirk of Ennis as more of a grim determination, “We gotta stick this thing out Jack” teeth clenched, whereas to me Jack looks sadly brokenhearted that his dream of "A Sweet Life” is never realized.

I think the graphic artists here did a great job. JMHO.

[ksxks]

Thank you for researching, jackster!  Of course the "Titanic" thing is the most obvious.  But I also like and agree with your "aw shucks" type of cowboy attitude, as opposed to John Wayne type.

This is a stunning version of it, that you posted.  The clouds are actually quite threatening, like thunderheads -- big storm's a-coming.  Force of nature.  And the reflection of mountains in water, beautiful certainly, but mirror images generally tend toward a kind of confusion.  Also, mirror-images could be a symbol of same-sex relationships.

kathy

[tpe]

Thanks everyone.  I find the comment about the reflection very interesting.

I don't know whether I have said this before, but we see Ennis in full profile -- with no possibility of his eyes meeting the gave of the viewer if they were open.  Jack's is a bit more towards the viewer; he could potentially meet our gaze if his eyes opened and if his head wasn't bowed down.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks everyone.  I find the comment about the reflection very interesting.

I don't know whether I have said this before, but we see Ennis in full profile -- with no possibility of his eyes meeting the gave of the viewer if they were open.  Jack's is a bit more towards the viewer; he could potentially meet our gaze if his eyes opened and if his head wasn't bowed down.

Could this mean that Ennis spend all his life hiddening himself from the other's gaze,trying also to hide his feelings?And that Jack was more able to open his eyes-his feelings and expose them to the society's opinion?.

[tpe]

Could this mean that Ennis spend all his life hiddening himself from the other's gaze,trying also to hide his feelings?And that Jack was more able to open his eyes-his feelings and expose them to the society's opinion?.

Yes, they say that a person who cannot meet one's gaze is hiding something from the viewer AND himself/herself.  It could be seen as an involuntary way of not showing one's feelings -- because they do show in the eyes.  Equating eyes with our own feelings is quite valid, IMO.