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Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines  (Read 405111 times)

Offline NoReins

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2006, 02:20 AM »
Quote from: chameau on May 25, 2006, 06:52 PM
Jack:  ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… ''  :-[ :-\\ :\'(

Ennis I love you?

No doubt at all, cham.

And in a similar vein, Ennis's "Ain't no reins on this one" is, to me, his way of telling Jack that what he feels is stronger than anything he's ever felt before - in other words, "Jack, I love you"
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Offline hpv

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2006, 03:57 AM »
Quote from: chameau on May 25, 2006, 06:52 PM
Jack:  ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… ''  :-[ :-\\ :\'(

Ennis I love you?
Ditto

o/c he  ment-  %)... what else could it be??
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Offline justlikethisalways

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2006, 05:07 AM »
Great thread! Really like the new interpretations for A Love That Will Never Grow Old and No One's Gonna Love You Like Me. I was always impressed with how perfectly the songs match the storyline.

Getting back on topic -- Here's something else -- When Ennis and Alma's wedding scene begins, we hear the Lord's Prayer, starting with:

"...Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..."

Always seemed odd that this scene starts with these words (and not, say, with their wedding vows).
I wonder if, as he was praying, Ennis might have had a particular "temptation" and "evil" in mind. Somebody name a Jack...?
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Offline NoReins

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2006, 05:21 AM »
Quote from: justlikethisalways on May 26, 2006, 05:07 AM
Great thread! Really like the new interpretations for A Love That Will Never Grow Old and No One's Gonna Love You Like Me. I was always impressed with how perfectly the songs match the storyline.

Getting back on topic -- Here's something else -- When Ennis and Alma's wedding scene begins, we hear the Lord's Prayer, starting with:

"...Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..."

Always seemed odd that this scene starts with these words (and not, say, with their wedding vows).
I wonder if, as he was praying, Ennis might have had a particular "temptation" and "evil" in mind. Somebody name a Jack...?

Yeah, I think you're right. It always strikes me that this scene follows directly from Ennis collapsing in the alley, punching the wall in frustration/anger/sorrow at leaving Jack. Starting with these lines makes the two scenes flow together perfectly - in both, Ennis is thinking of Jack.
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He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2006, 06:54 AM »
Quote from: Carlos_H82 on May 25, 2006, 07:18 PM
Quote from: chameau on May 25, 2006, 06:52 PM
Jack:  ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… ''  :-[ :-\\ :\'(

Ennis I love you?

thanks!!!!! at last someone thinks like me!!! you know it is the best way to say i love you without the proper words!!!

Yes, this is a wonderful example.  Thanks Pierre.  That was beautiful.

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Offline CrimsonSky

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2006, 06:56 AM »
When Jack's moaning about having to sleep up with the sheep, and he ends his rant by saying "Aguirre's got no right making us do something against the rules". I actually think Jack is just talking about the sheep thing, but the look on Ennis's face suggests he's thinking something different, he sort of frowns, and then looks kind of pensive.I'm not sure if he's thinking that Jack doesn't seem the type to give a toss about the rules,or maybe he's already thinking of them doing stuff against the rules that has nothing to do with sheep? :-\\ ;)


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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2006, 07:01 AM »
Quote from: stacp on May 25, 2006, 08:19 PM
This is a great thread!  What about Jack's line at the end about "the rancher's wife."  He is pretends to be talking about a woman (presumably LaShawn), but he's really talking about Randall.  I think Jack is lying to Ennis here about the gender of the person 1) to spare Ennis' feelings and 2) to keep up the charade of them really being interested in women.

I do think this is a good and much more subtle example.  I guess it's because one is never 'entirely' sure whether he is telling a lie to hide a truth or telling the truth in the guise of a coded language that he knew Ennis would understand.

Quite subtle.  Thanks stacp.

 
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2006, 07:04 AM »
Quote from: NoReins on May 26, 2006, 05:21 AM
Quote from: justlikethisalways on May 26, 2006, 05:07 AM
Great thread! Really like the new interpretations for A Love That Will Never Grow Old and No One's Gonna Love You Like Me. I was always impressed with how perfectly the songs match the storyline.

Getting back on topic -- Here's something else -- When Ennis and Alma's wedding scene begins, we hear the Lord's Prayer, starting with:

"...Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..."

Always seemed odd that this scene starts with these words (and not, say, with their wedding vows).
I wonder if, as he was praying, Ennis might have had a particular "temptation" and "evil" in mind. Somebody name a Jack...?

Yeah, I think you're right. It always strikes me that this scene follows directly from Ennis collapsing in the alley, punching the wall in frustration/anger/sorrow at leaving Jack. Starting with these lines makes the two scenes flow together perfectly - in both, Ennis is thinking of Jack.


Yes, outwardly, it looks like part of the wedding service, but inwardly, it is a commentary on Ennis's inner turmoil.

Thanks justlikethisalways and NoReins.

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Offline stacp

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2006, 07:07 AM »
Quote from: NoReins on May 26, 2006, 02:20 AM
Quote from: chameau on May 25, 2006, 06:52 PM
Jack:  ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… ''  :-[ :-\\ :\'(

Ennis I love you?

No doubt at all, cham.

And in a similar vein, Ennis's "Ain't no reins on this one" is, to me, his way of telling Jack that what he feels is stronger than anything he's ever felt before - in other words, "Jack, I love you"


I totally agree.  Also, when Ennis says "this thing," right before the "no reins" line, I think "this thing" he is talking about is Ennis' way of saying it's love between them. 
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2006, 07:10 AM »
Quote from: CrimsonSky on May 26, 2006, 06:56 AM
When Jack's moaning about having to sleep up with the sheep, and he ends his rant by saying "Aguirre's got no right making us do something against the rules". I actually think Jack is just talking about the sheep thing, but the look on Ennis's face suggests he's thinking something different, he sort of frowns, and then looks kind of pensive.I'm not sure if he's thinking that Jack doesn't seem the type to give a toss about the rules,or maybe he's already thinking of them doing stuff against the rules that has nothing to do with sheep? :-\\ ;)




This is interesting, CrimsonSky. You know, I had always thought that Jack's line loaded with a double meaning. On one level, he is genuinely distressed that he has to spend a sleepless night alone with sheep.  On another level, I think it is a ruse to get him and Ennis together in the camp at night.  Remember the later line 'That ain't the point...'?

I do agree about Ennis's look.  I think both of them use and understood a kind of subtle coded language all throughout the movie (as I had cited above). 

 
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Offline CrimsonSky

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2006, 07:36 AM »
Quote from: tpe on May 26, 2006, 07:10 AM
This is interesting, CrimsonSky. You know, I had always thought that Jack's line loaded with a double meaning. On one level, he is genuinely distressed that he has to spend a sleepless night alone with sheep. On another level, I think it is a ruse to get him and Ennis together in the camp at night.  Remember the later line 'That ain't the point...'?

I do agree about Ennis's look.  I think both of them use and understood a kind of subtle coded language all throughout the movie (as I had cited above). 

 

OMG, yeah, it's so obvious now you've pointed it out, I can't believe I never thought of that :-[ Thanks tpe :)
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Offline frances

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2006, 07:39 AM »
Quote from: tpe on May 25, 2006, 10:09 AM


The third one occured to me yesterday.  In the scene where Jack is crying after being 'rejected' by Ennis after the divorce, you hear music from the award-winning song 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old'  I have always interpreted this as a commentary that tells us that the love between Ennis and Jack will never die -- in spite of everything.  But yesterday, I have come to realize that it could also be interpreted as a commentary of Jack's love never growing old -- simply because Jack himself will die young in his love.



I was discussing with a friend about the meaning of 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' yesterday.

In her opinion, as Jack says, "There ain't never enough time, never enough... ".  Never enough time to grow bored with each other, to take each other for granted. Each meeting is a sweet and wonderful experience that many of us can no longer find with our soulmates because even on get-aways we are burdoned with real life. Real history, reality in general.

Don't know actually. Not a optimistic way to see love (and I personally don't agree), but another possible interpretation of those words

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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2006, 07:45 AM »
Quote from: CrimsonSky on May 26, 2006, 07:36 AM
Quote from: tpe on May 26, 2006, 07:10 AM
This is interesting, CrimsonSky. You know, I had always thought that Jack's line loaded with a double meaning. On one level, he is genuinely distressed that he has to spend a sleepless night alone with sheep. On another level, I think it is a ruse to get him and Ennis together in the camp at night.  Remember the later line 'That ain't the point...'?

I do agree about Ennis's look.  I think both of them use and understood a kind of subtle coded language all throughout the movie (as I had cited above). 

 

OMG, yeah, it's so obvious now you've pointed it out, I can't believe I never thought of that :-[ Thanks tpe :)

We should thank you CrimsonSky for pointing out this particular scene.  I think the related scenes on BBM are so full of double meaning...



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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2006, 08:06 AM »
Quote from: frances on May 26, 2006, 07:39 AM
I was discussing with a friend about the meaning of 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' yesterday.

In her opinion, as Jack says, "There ain't never enough time, never enough... ".  Never enough time to grow bored with each other, to take each other for granted. Each meeting is a sweet and wonderful experience that many of us can no longer find with our soulmates because even on get-aways we are burdoned with real life. Real history, reality in general.

Don't know actually. Not a optimistic way to see love (and I personally don't agree), but another possible interpretation of those words


"There ain't never enough time, never enough... ",  Also interesting, frances, because I thought this also implied a premonition from Jack -- a hint in the screenplay, if you will -- that he will NOT have enough time.  I think your interpretation here gives it at least a TRIPLE meaning.  I think it is one of those lines so loaded with a lot of nuances and subtle hints...

Thank you.



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Offline frances

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2006, 01:14 PM »
It's interesting that the movie uses the "Jack, I swear..." as the end and doesn't go on to to Ennis dreaming  about Jack and the revealing line "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.

It does really leave the ending open and more mysterious

Jack, I swear...  I won't forget you? I always loved you?  I won't make the same mistake again? Anything Else?
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2006, 01:40 PM »
Quote from: frances on May 26, 2006, 01:14 PM
It's interesting that the movie uses the "Jack, I swear..." as the end and doesn't go on to to Ennis dreaming  about Jack and the revealing line "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.

It does really leave the ending open and more mysterious

Jack, I swear...  I won't forget you? I always loved you?  I won't make the same mistake again? Anything Else?

Jack, I swear connotes a universe of meaning, IMO.  But I suspect that of all the possible meanings, 'I love you' is the most eloquent.  If you append the word 'forever', it strings together in one phrase the entire world that is BBM: Ennis, Jack, love, and time/memory.

It is an interpretation most worthy of Proust.


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Offline dalemidex

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2006, 06:00 PM »
Quote from: tpe on May 25, 2006, 03:29 PM
Quote from: Sunflower79 on May 25, 2006, 03:04 PM
Quote
When i heard the song in the divorce scene it was really heartbreaking i mean Jack was really destroyed Ennis just rejected him and that song was reminding him that their love would be the same always and would never grow old. I'm one those who believe their love was a bond that was stronger than any other bond that the human being have know about.

that scene gets me every time too..its so sad, and heartbreaking..their love did last through time..Jack started out being so exicted and happy and then he got his hopes dashed..that scene always makes me sad  :( :( :\'( :\'(

Quote
The dance scene where we hear "Nobody Loves You Like Me".  It is Ennis that Jack is actually longing for in this scene!!!
I agree..Jack is defenly wanting Ennis..thanks for finding the pic :)

Sunflower79, do you also sense double mwanings in the songs that accompany the Ennis scenses -- especially the ones with Cassie?




When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:

"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."

No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to.   That's my take, at least.


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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2006, 06:48 PM »
Quote from: dalemidex on May 26, 2006, 06:00 PM
When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:

"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."

No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to.   That's my take, at least.

The songs are used so beautifully as commentary in this film.  Such beautiful articulation without benefit of dialog.

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Offline chameau

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2006, 09:02 PM »
Ennis:  "I was just sending a prayer of thanks"

Jack:  "For what?"

Ennis:  "for you forgettin' to bring that harmonica.  I'm enjoyin' the peace and quiet"

Yeah!  Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe?  :-[ :-\\ :\'(

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Offline ethan

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2006, 10:42 PM »
Quote from: chameau on May 26, 2006, 09:02 PM
Yeah!  Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe?  :-[ :-\\ :\'(

Agreed 200%  Thanks, chameau
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Offline NoReins

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2006, 02:56 AM »
Quote from: chameau on May 26, 2006, 09:02 PM
Ennis:  "I was just sending a prayer of thanks"

Jack:  "For what?"

Ennis:  "for you forgettin' to bring that harmonica.  I'm enjoyin' the peace and quiet"

Yeah!  Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe?  :-[ :-\\ :\'(



Absolutely - if only Jack had kept his mouth shut there, Ennis might have said something a lot more profound.
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He will be eternally missed, but he will never be forgotten

Christopher Nolan, accepting the Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe on Heath's behalf.

He was, as an actor and a professional and a human being, one of a kind

Charles Roven, accepting Heath's BAFTA.

This award tonight would have humbly validated Heath's quiet determination to be truly accepted by you all here — his peers within an industry he so loved.

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Offline shieldmaid

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2006, 11:58 AM »
I have always loved the scene, too, when Jack is waiting for Ennis to come back after he runs into the bear.  He's clearly worried but when Ennis comes back he tries to hide it, saying, "Where in the hell you been?  I've been up with the sheep all day, and I get down here, hungry as hell, and find nothing but beans."  Then he sees Ennis's face and uses almost exactly the same words to express shock and concern: "What in the hell happened, Ennis?"  I.e., I was really worried about you . . . . I'm glad you're OK . . . . Can I help?  Sighhh.
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some open space between

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2006, 05:14 PM »
Quote from: ethan on May 26, 2006, 10:42 PM
Quote from: chameau on May 26, 2006, 09:02 PM
Yeah!  Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe?  :-[ :-\\ :\'(

Agreed 200%  Thanks, chameau

I double the percentage.

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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2006, 05:19 PM »
Quote from: shieldmaid on May 27, 2006, 11:58 AM
I have always loved the scene, too, when Jack is waiting for Ennis to come back after he runs into the bear.  He's clearly worried but when Ennis comes back he tries to hide it, saying, "Where in the hell you been?  I've been up with the sheep all day, and I get down here, hungry as hell, and find nothing but beans."  Then he sees Ennis's face and uses almost exactly the same words to express shock and concern: "What in the hell happened, Ennis?"  I.e., I was really worried about you . . . . I'm glad you're OK . . . . Can I help?  Sighhh.

Indeed.  Jake's acting here is much too subtle to consider as a literal translation of the screenplay directives.   This is Jack's way of hiding his concern for Ennis, the same way Ennis hides his emotions for Jack is other scenes.  But the worry and concern in Jake's interpretation can only be gleaned from the way his eyes evoke worry and relief while his words seemingly bespeak anger.   Very subtle articulation...

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Offline frances

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2006, 06:33 PM »
I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash. Give it to you when we get to Signal


It is not only an offer for a loan but also a way not to lose contact with Ennis

Giving him a loan means the loan would have to be repaid - so they'd have to stay in touch for that.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2006, 06:41 PM »
Quote from: frances on May 31, 2006, 06:33 PM
I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash. Give it to you when we get to Signal


It is not only an offer for a loan but also a way not to lose contact with Ennis

Giving him a loan means the loan would have to be repaid - so they'd have to stay in touch for that.


I don't need your money...

Translation: What I need is you, Jack...



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Offline frances

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2006, 06:45 PM »
Quote from: tpe on May 31, 2006, 06:41 PM

I don't need your money...



 "I need you, but I don't want to show you"
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2006, 06:50 PM »
Quote from: frances on May 31, 2006, 06:45 PM
Quote from: tpe on May 31, 2006, 06:41 PM

I don't need your money...



 "I need you, but I don't want to show you"

Indeed.

I'm not in the poorhouse... SH*T

Translation: 'I'm not in love...right?  Wrong!'

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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2006, 07:47 PM »
Great lines tpe & Frances!  :)
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You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2006, 07:52 PM »
"Besides that s.o.b. is cutting us out of a whole month's pay. It ain't right." I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere but Ennis really means he's cheating us out of a month to be together. I'm not prepared for this. 
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“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon
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