Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[ksxks]

I believe she did too. And I also always thought she knew.

Slightly OT, but there's a wonderful interview with Roberta Maxwell (in the cast section or whatever also has soundtrack, I think) and she speaks so beautifully about Jack's mom. She really GOT her character. This movie is perfect because each piece of it (from casting to soundtrack to cinematography) is perfect. Sorry, just had to say it.

Yes FlwrChild .  I think there is a separate thread just on jack's mom.  And the interview is also posted somewhere, I believe.  Thanks for bringing up the interview.  She is amazing.  You can see the many levels of meaning without her even uttering a word. 

Indeed.  The looks and actions between Ennis and Jack's mom speak volumes!

kathy

[ksxks]

Great idea for a thread, tpe - since we know there is so much more to BBM then what it shows on the surface.  I've learned so much already from these great posts!

There's one line from Ennis that has always left me aching for him without really knowing why; looking at it from your "double meaning"  perspective has helped shed some light on why it bothered me so.

That last scene in the trailer with Junior, when she tells him "Daddy, you need more furniture", Ennis replies simply "you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'".  Junior might take it at face value, that he's referring to material things, but really I think he's saying "without Jack, I ain't got nothing special, nothin' that's just for me, only for me, so what do I care about the bits and pieces around me now??".

And looking at it from the other side it would be true, too, If Ennis were really saying. "when I had Jack, I had everything I needed, HE was everything I needed, that sweet life he wanted would have felt good with that man by my side; don't have the will to do more than just get by without him to share this life with me." 

Let be, let be ...

This is absolutely beautiful, what you said.  I more or less took it at face value, Ennis's comment here to Junior.  But I certainly see what he really meant, as you said.  Beautiful and so sad.

kathy

[ksxks]

Okay, I'm a terrible brokie -- but I can't quite figure where "Let be, let be" is.  Do tell, please.

kathy

[FlwrChild]

Okay, I'm a terrible brokie -- but I can't quite figure where "Let be, let be" is.  Do tell, please.

kathy

Kathy,
This is a quote from the original short story. It refers to the flashback scene where Ennis comes up behind Jack and sings to him while Jack leans against Ennis by the fire. Annie Proulx wrote of Jack's memory:

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

[LuvJackNasty]

I was thinking of a line in the SS. Ennis is looking for a postcard of BBM and the store owner says he can get him a hundred and Ennis says "Ones enough"- I have enough love and regret in me over Jack. Jack was the one love of my life and now my Brokeback Mountain.

[tpe]

I was thinking of a line in the SS. Ennis is looking for a postcard of BBM and the store owner says he can get him a hundred and Ennis says "Ones enough"- I have enough love and regret in me over Jack. Jack was the one love of my life and now my Brokeback Mountain.

One's enough.

This is enough to break your heart.

[MississaugaRed]

When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:

"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."

No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to.   That's my take, at least.

dalemidex, thank you for posting the words to this song.  I hadn't heard this before and was planning on looking up the lyrics, knowing as you've all demonstrated how well the music in BBM is tied into each scene.  Loved your take on this one! 

There is another music moment that strikes me as being a foreshadowing of what is to come. The song "I don't want to say good-bye" is playing in the scene where Jack is dancing with Lashawn.  When that ends we go to the conversation between Randall and Jack as they're waiting for the ladies at the end of the evening.

I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not.  Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.

This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him??  He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.


My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! 

[ksxks]

Okay, I'm a terrible brokie -- but I can't quite figure where "Let be, let be" is.  Do tell, please.

kathy

Kathy,
This is a quote from the original short story. It refers to the flashback scene where Ennis comes up behind Jack and sings to him while Jack leans against Ennis by the fire. Annie Proulx wrote of Jack's memory:

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

Thank you very much.  I am a bad brokie -- I obviously need a refresher course on the story!  Sounds like a wonderful thing to do this weekend...

kathy

[ksxks]

I was thinking of a line in the SS. Ennis is looking for a postcard of BBM and the store owner says he can get him a hundred and Ennis says "Ones enough"- I have enough love and regret in me over Jack. Jack was the one love of my life and now my Brokeback Mountain.

This is really a good one, LJN.  I love reading everyone's interpretations.

kathy

[ksxks]

When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:

"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."

No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to.   That's my take, at least.

dalemidex, thank you for posting the words to this song.  I hadn't heard this before and was planning on looking up the lyrics, knowing as you've all demonstrated how well the music in BBM is tied into each scene.  Loved your take on this one! 

There is another music moment that strikes me as being a foreshadowing of what is to come. The song "I don't want to say good-bye" is playing in the scene where Jack is dancing with Lashawn.  When that ends we go to the conversation between Randall and Jack as they're waiting for the ladies at the end of the evening.

I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not.  Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.

This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him??  He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.

My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! 

Excellent!  This is breaking my heart.  This is about my favorite song from the soundtrack; and your perspective on it with these scenes makes it even more touching.

kathy


kathy

[LuvJackNasty]

When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:

"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."

No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to.   That's my take, at least.

dalemidex, thank you for posting the words to this song.  I hadn't heard this before and was planning on looking up the lyrics, knowing as you've all demonstrated how well the music in BBM is tied into each scene.  Loved your take on this one! 

There is another music moment that strikes me as being a foreshadowing of what is to come. The song "I don't want to say good-bye" is playing in the scene where Jack is dancing with Lashawn.  When that ends we go to the conversation between Randall and Jack as they're waiting for the ladies at the end of the evening.

I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not.  Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.

This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him??  He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.


My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! 

Great interpretation! This song always makes me so sad.
"Just like the light of the morning
After the darkness has gone
The shadow of my love is falling
On a place where the sun always shines
Don’t you know that’s where our hearts both belong?"

[tpe]

Thanks all. 

To see the songs provide commentary to their love:  it shows how much this film is a complete work of art. 

[FlwrChild]

Absolutely! 'A Love that Will Never Grow Old' is another perfect description of them and their love.

[dalemidex]

I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not.  Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.

This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him??  He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.


My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! 

Oh what a great observation.  I've watched this so many times but it never quite sunk in.  Jack's face is not so much "am I being propositioned here?" but is instead more about what it would mean to pursue something with Randall more than just a hookup.  That is indeed what is face is saying.

Thank you very much for sharing that!

[MississaugaRed]

Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise!  )

Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"

He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I?  No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down."  I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.

And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years.  She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place."  She didn't have to volunteer that.  To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying  "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so.  It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".

I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too.  Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for.   

Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. 

[frances]

He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I?  No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down."  I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.

Same here

I do think he feels bad about hurting Cassie.  He truly seems saddened by the situation with her.  But, of course the primary issue is always the Jack subtext. 

[dalemidex]

Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise!  )

Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"

He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I?  No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down."  I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.

And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years.  She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place."  She didn't have to volunteer that.  To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying  "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so.  It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".

I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too.  Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for.   

Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. 

I tihnk these are remarkably beautiful and insightful...thank you!

[ksxks]

Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise!  )

Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"

He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I?  No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down."  I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.

And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years.  She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place."  She didn't have to volunteer that.  To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying  "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so.  It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".

I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too.  Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for.   

Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. 

Mississauga: I love what you said about Lureen, your interpretation of her meaning when she tells Ennis that BBM was Jack's favorite place.  I've never really felt unkindly toward Lureen, but here's one question:  when she told Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat and see Jack's parents, was that a cruelty, setting him up to be put down by the awful father?  She much have known he was awful.  Or was that innocent on her part, like she actually thought he might be able to take Jack's ashes to BBM?

kathy

[welshwitch]

She'd presumably never met Jack's family so perhaps she didn't know what his father was like - I wondered once if now that Jack was dead she suddenly felt some sort of twinge of sympathy and hoped Jack's ashes would end up where he'd wanted them and that the family would let him take them. I've never felt unkidly about her either - just think she was the wrong woman married to the wrong man for the wrong reasons, and as Ennis said of Alma, "This ain't her fault".

[MississaugaRed]

Mississauga: I love what you said about Lureen, your interpretation of her meaning when she tells Ennis that BBM was Jack's favorite place.  I've never really felt unkindly toward Lureen, but here's one question:  when she told Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat and see Jack's parents, was that a cruelty, setting him up to be put down by the awful father?  She much have known he was awful.  Or was that innocent on her part, like she actually thought he might be able to take Jack's ashes to BBM?

kathy

Good question, Kathy - 
I certainly never thought of that as being done out of cruelty.  I always thought that line was an acknowledgement on Lureen's part, meaning that Ennis had as much right to visit Jack's family and be involved in putting Jack to rest as Lureen herself did.
Plus ... I wonder how much interaction she would have had with Jack's folks??  Jack might not have shared as much with her in that regard, especially if he was trying to fit into the Newsome family.  Talk about a contrast, how Lureen and Jack were raised, huh??  Maybe her suggestion that Ennis go to Lighting Flat was also her way of bowing out of Jack's life gracefully - admitting that she never held the truest part of him ever.

Well, now you got me thinkin' ... and yes ... it hurts! lol  Nothing is ever simple in BBM, is it?? 

[NoReins]

And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years.  She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place."  She didn't have to volunteer that.  To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying  "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so.  It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".

Well said, MissRed. You're right that Lureen didn't have to tell Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favourite place, especially given what she's just realised the significance of the place, as well as how long Jack's heart had belonged to someone else. That she does offer the information shows that she clearly cared a lot for Jack, despite the coldness of her tone, and she knows that he would have wanted Ennis to know how important he was to Jack.

[welshwitch]

Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little garl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.

[MississaugaRed]

She'd presumably never met Jack's family so perhaps she didn't know what his father was like - I wondered once if now that Jack was dead she suddenly felt some sort of twinge of sympathy and hoped Jack's ashes would end up where he'd wanted them and that the family would let him take them. I've never felt unkidly about her either - just think she was the wrong woman married to the wrong man for the wrong reasons, and as Ennis said of Alma, "This ain't her fault".

I guess I'd thought before that she was a cold person ... but from what you've all been sharing here, she definitely deserves our sympathy as much as Alma.  True words, welshwitch - this wasn't the fault of either woman.

[welshwitch]

And when I think a bit more, also doing a typical Jack boast - she'd have to be the prettiest gal, just like he was a great bull-rider, etc, except of course that he wasn't - wonder whether Ennis would have been thinking straight enough to have picked up the ambiguity here?

[dalemidex]

Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little girl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.

I always kind of take this exchange, including the subsequent lines:

Jack: (hearing crying) Oh, you got a kid?
Ennis:  Yeah two girls.  Alma Jr & Jenny
Jack: I got a boy.
Ennis:  Yeah?
Jack:  Eight months old.  Smiles a lot

..as Jack assuring Ennis that he is indeed normal and not a queer.  I married a pretty girl and we have a kid, so it's okay, I'm like you are.

Why do I think this? I don't know for sure.  It's not the dialog itself.  The lines, when you think about them, are natural conversation between two friends who lost touch for a few years.  Maybe it's the way Ennis reacts to them.  Especially how he says "yeah?" when Jack says he has a son. 

I dunno.  I can't be sure that Jack intended it to come off this way...maybe he did.  But I do think that...purposeful or happenstance...the exchange where Jack tells Ennis he is married with a son is reassuring to Ennis.  Moments earlier he couldn't control himself but to hug and passionately kiss this other man, but, well this other man Jack clearly wasn't any different than Ennis.  Ennis wasn't mixed up with some queer, but rather some other normal guy just like he was.

Intentional or not, if he's trying to convince anyone he's a normal guy, I'd think it is Ennis.  They don't know that Alma saw them.

[MississaugaRed]

.. snip ..
Jack assuring Ennis that he is indeed normal and not a queer.  I married a pretty girl and we have a kid, so it's okay, I'm like you are.

Why do I think this? I don't know for sure.  It's not the dialog itself.  The lines, when you think about them, are natural conversation between two friends who lost touch for a few years.  Maybe it's the way Ennis reacts to them.  Especially how he says "yeah?" when Jack says he has a son. 

I dunno.  I can't be sure that Jack intended it to come off this way...maybe he did.  But I do think that...purposeful or happenstance...the exchange where Jack tells Ennis he is married with a son is reassuring to Ennis.  Moments earlier he couldn't control himself but to hug and passionately kiss this other man, but, well this other man Jack clearly wasn't any different than Ennis.  Ennis wasn't mixed up with some queer, but rather some other normal guy just like he was.

Intentional or not, if he's trying to convince anyone he's a normal guy, I'd think it is Ennis.  They don't know that Alma saw them.

Great interpretation of those lines, dalemidex ... I would never have thought of it that way!  Thanks for sharing, it does make a lot of sense, given Ennis's view of himself.

[ksxks]

Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little garl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.

You're right -- I feel sure this is the case.  "See?  We're just two normal men with wives and kids and all," meanwhile trying to hide their raging  arousal, even the floorboards trembling from the power of it.

kathy

[ksxks]

Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little girl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.

I always kind of take this exchange, including the subsequent lines:

Jack: (hearing crying) Oh, you got a kid?
Ennis:  Yeah two girls.  Alma Jr & Jenny
Jack: I got a boy.
Ennis:  Yeah?
Jack:  Eight months old.  Smiles a lot

..as Jack assuring Ennis that he is indeed normal and not a queer.  I married a pretty girl and we have a kid, so it's okay, I'm like you are.

Why do I think this? I don't know for sure.  It's not the dialog itself.  The lines, when you think about them, are natural conversation between two friends who lost touch for a few years.  Maybe it's the way Ennis reacts to them.  Especially how he says "yeah?" when Jack says he has a son. 

I dunno.  I can't be sure that Jack intended it to come off this way...maybe he did.  But I do think that...purposeful or happenstance...the exchange where Jack tells Ennis he is married with a son is reassuring to Ennis.  Moments earlier he couldn't control himself but to hug and passionately kiss this other man, but, well this other man Jack clearly wasn't any different than Ennis.  Ennis wasn't mixed up with some queer, but rather some other normal guy just like he was.

Intentional or not, if he's trying to convince anyone he's a normal guy, I'd think it is Ennis.  They don't know that Alma saw them.

Good point!  I really hadn't thought about Jack wanting to convince Ennis that he was a "regular guy" when the said this (the passion they just experienced notwithstanding). They have had absolutely no contact for four years except "I'm coming through..." and "You bet," and Ennis might think that Jack is indeed really some kind of queer by now, so this is said by Jack as much to Ennis as to Alma since, as you said, they don't know that she saw them kissing. 

God, there is so much in this to watch and listen to and contemplate...

kathy

[tpe]

Thank you all.  There is so much to ponder here in the latest posts.  Seiing some of these, I wished I could have shared them in the BBM discussion group I attended last Friday.

There seems to be no end to richness of meaning here.  So many layers.  So many lights.

[LuvJackNasty]

Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise!  )

Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"

He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I?  No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down."  I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.

And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years.  She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place."  She didn't have to volunteer that.  To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying  "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so.  It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".

I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too.  Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for.   

Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. 

Wow great post Miss-red!