Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[edgar]

I second the motion that Lureen was being kind to Ennis by volunteering more info than needed. Also when she said he drank a lot--it's not necessarily good information, but it does let Ennis know a little bit more about Jack.

Also, I certainly think Jack is very self-conscious about the fact that people tend to think he's gay. (Rodeo clown, tire-iron guys, Aguirre, Randal, maybe LD Newhouse...) Certainly mentioning a wife and kids would be a way for Jack to try to squelch any suspicions Alma has. (He doesn't know that Alma saw, but he might sense that she's troubled, and he might feel like he's got stubble burn on his face, that he might have saliva on his lips, that his shirt might not be tucked in straight, that his hat might be on crooked, that his legs are shaking, that his heart is pounding, that his jeans....well, never mind.) 

[ksxks]

I second the motion that Lureen was being kind to Ennis by volunteering more info than needed. Also when she said he drank a lot--it's not necessarily good information, but it does let Ennis know a little bit more about Jack.

Also, I certainly think Jack is very self-conscious about the fact that people tend to think he's gay. (Rodeo clown, tire-iron guys, Aguirre, Randal, maybe LD Newhouse...) Certainly mentioning a wife and kids would be a way for Jack to try to squelch any suspicions Alma has. (He doesn't know that Alma saw, but he might sense that she's troubled, and he might feel like he's got stubble burn on his face, that he might have saliva on his lips, that his shirt might not be tucked in straight, that his hat might be on crooked, that his legs are shaking, that his heart is pounding, that his jeans....well, never mind.) 

LOL, that last.  Yep -- it's so hot in here!

kathy

[NoReins]

I second the motion that Lureen was being kind to Ennis by volunteering more info than needed. Also when she said he drank a lot--it's not necessarily good information, but it does let Ennis know a little bit more about Jack.

Also, I certainly think Jack is very self-conscious about the fact that people tend to think he's gay. (Rodeo clown, tire-iron guys, Aguirre, Randal, maybe LD Newhouse...) Certainly mentioning a wife and kids would be a way for Jack to try to squelch any suspicions Alma has. (He doesn't know that Alma saw, but he might sense that she's troubled, and he might feel like he's got stubble burn on his face, that he might have saliva on his lips, that his shirt might not be tucked in straight, that his hat might be on crooked, that his legs are shaking, that his heart is pounding, that his jeans....well, never mind.) 

Yeah, I always thought there might be something that made their attraction to each other fairly obvious to Alma, even if she hadn't seen them kissing

[welshwitch]

Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?

[tpe]

Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?

Yes, this is interesting.  I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.

hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen).  And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...

[CrimsonSky]

Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?

Yes, this is interesting.  I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.

hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen).  And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...

I know exactly what you mean tpe, I think Lureen's approach to men is very similar to Jack's, they know what they want and go all out to get it, in fact they'd be ideally suited if it wasn't for Jack being gay.
When Jack meets Lureen, he's still pining for Ennis, reduced to seeking casual sex with other men(with all the danger that entails), and he's skint,and then Lureen comes along and offers him a way out of all that, so I think he just goes with the flow and decides it's gotta be worth a try.
His "fast or slow" comment I think shows that he knows deep down that Lureen's not right for him,he's the one who breaks off the kiss, and for the most part, he looks terrified (the phrase "rabbit caught in the headlights" always springs to my mind when I watch that scene), and he's not really sure what to do, he's certainly not the confident, assured lover he is with Ennis in FNIT or SNIT. but he's willing to let Lureen try and show him the way, so to speak.       

[tpe]

I know exactly what you mean tpe, I think Lureen's approach to men is very similar to Jack's, they know what they want and go all out to get it, in fact they'd be ideally suited if it wasn't for Jack being gay.
When Jack meets Lureen, he's still pining for Ennis, reduced to seeking casual sex with other men(with all the danger that entails), and he's skint,and then Lureen comes along and offers him a way out of all that, so I think he just goes with the flow and decides it's gotta be worth a try.
His "fast or slow" comment I think shows that he knows deep down that Lureen's not right for him,he's the one who breaks off the kiss, and for the most part, he looks terrified (the phrase "rabbit caught in the headlights" always springs to my mind when I watch that scene), and he's not really sure what to do, he's certainly not the confident, assured lover he is with Ennis in FNIT or SNIT. but he's willing to let Lureen try and show him the way, so to speak.       

This is beautifully said.  Thanks CrimsonSky.  Lureen and Jack are indeed a match.  "rabbit caught in the headlights" -- this is so exquisite.  It is so spot on.  The enigmatic "fast or slow" lends itself to your interpretation about his confidence in relation to the love scenes with Ennis.

Thank you.

[welshwitch]

In fact he is underneath her, as he is under Ennis in the FNIT, and I wonder if he's not sure what to do next? He knows the direction he's going in, and it's not hers. I even wondered once if he had any doubts about whether he could do it with a woman - in the ss Ennis says that's no problem for him but I'm not so sure about Jack. In fact I went off on a tack about his trying to manage until Lureen got pregnant then as soon as he could hi-tailing it back to try to find Ennis, like a kid running for his mother.

[CrimsonSky]

I know exactly what you mean tpe, I think Lureen's approach to men is very similar to Jack's, they know what they want and go all out to get it, in fact they'd be ideally suited if it wasn't for Jack being gay.
When Jack meets Lureen, he's still pining for Ennis, reduced to seeking casual sex with other men(with all the danger that entails), and he's skint,and then Lureen comes along and offers him a way out of all that, so I think he just goes with the flow and decides it's gotta be worth a try.
His "fast or slow" comment I think shows that he knows deep down that Lureen's not right for him,he's the one who breaks off the kiss, and for the most part, he looks terrified (the phrase "rabbit caught in the headlights" always springs to my mind when I watch that scene), and he's not really sure what to do, he's certainly not the confident, assured lover he is with Ennis in FNIT or SNIT. but he's willing to let Lureen try and show him the way, so to speak.       

This is beautifully said.  Thanks CrimsonSky.  Lureen and Jack are indeed a match.  "rabbit caught in the headlights" -- this is so exquisite.  It is so spot on.  The enigmatic "fast or slow" lends itself to your interpretation about his confidence in relation to the love scenes with Ennis.

Thank you.

Thanks tpe I have to admit, the scenes where Jack and Lureen meet and get together are probably my favourite non Ennis and Jack scenes

[ksxks]

Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?

Yes, this is interesting.  I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.

hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen).  And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...

Yes -- Jack just was his usual gorgeous self and with not too much effort lured her in and let her take the reins.  Kind of an overt role-reversal, and it seems it suited them both at the time.

kathy

[tpe]

Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?

Yes, this is interesting.  I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.

hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen).  And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...

Yes -- Jack just was his usual gorgeous self and with not too much effort lured her in and let her take the reins.  Kind of an overt role-reversal, and it seems it suited them both at the time.

kathy

Indeed kathy, it is as much a role reversal as a double meaning. Wonderful insight.  Layers and contrasts....

[frances]

 Don't know if it's the right place to post it.

Anyway....

"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"

Ennis makes a joke.
But Jack's reaction is pensive, serious, compassionate, because he knows that there's too much truth in what Ennis says.

Ennis himself  accompanies his words with an half smile but then with a long, direct serious look.

[tpe]

Don't know if it's the right place to post it.

Anyway....

"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"

Ennis makes a joke.
But Jack's reaction is pensive, serious, compassionate, because he knows that there's too much truth in what Ennis says.

Ennis himself  accompanies his words with an half smile but then with a long, direct serious look.

"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"

Translation:  It is you that makes me speak...

Thank you, frances.

[hpv]

Don't know if it's the right place to post it.

Anyway....

"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"

Ennis makes a joke.
But Jack's reaction is pensive, serious, compassionate, because he knows that there's too much truth in what Ennis says.

Ennis himself  accompanies his words with an half smile but then with a long, direct serious look.

"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"

Translation:  It is you that makes me speak...

Thank you, frances.

Well,that's of course is the time when Ennis is drawn  to Jack for real,like he find at last his soulmate ,
someone that he pours out his heart  to,because we all know how lonely he was before he meets Jack

[MississaugaRed]

You know, I was thinking this morning about have few lines are actually spoken in this film!  With the expection of a few choice scenes there aren't lots of examples of verbal exposition.  Really, the dialogue is so sparse it kind of stuns you when you think about how much we have fleshed out the story in our heads with all the subtext.  Guess all these double meanings have served their purpose! 

On that note ... I remembered the line Cassie says to Junior "you don't say much, but you get your point across".  In general terms, that line could speak for the whole film, I think.

Specific to Cassie, though, it brings to mind the fact that Ennis also doesn't say much, but I'm thinking he's NOT getting his point across so well, or Cassie wouldn't have to ask Junior if Ennis would ever see fit to settle down again.  She has to go to the daughter of the man she's been seeing and sleeping with for some while now to get a handle on his intentions. She's also acknowledging that she appreciates a straight forward response that she can understand.

This line really shows Cassie's frustration at how hard Ennis is to read, IMO.

Not surprising, considering the mixed signals his body and heart had to be throwing off, I guess.

[ksxks]

"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"

Translation:  It is you that makes me speak...

Thank you, frances.

Well,that's of course is the time when Ennis is drawn  to Jack for real,like he find at last his soulmate ,
someone that he pours out his heart  to,because we all know how lonely he was before he meets Jack

That's beautiful, your saying this scene is the time Ennis has realized and acknowledges that here is one special friend...  (And it's the first time Jack says "Friend," too.)  For Ennis to tell someone about his life -- he's probably darn near never done that before.  And not only that, but his telling Jack "That's the most I spoke in a year" and the quirk of a smile on his face -- that is one loaded moment, full of growing camaraderie but more -- fraught with sexual potential.  Then, the looks that gorgeous Jack gives Ennis throughout that whole interchange are some of the sexiest come-on looks I've ever seen excuse me...

kathy

[hpv]

"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"

Translation:  It is you that makes me speak...

Thank you, frances.

Well,that's of course is the time when Ennis is drawn  to Jack for real,like he find at last his soulmate ,
someone that he pours out his heart  to,because we all know how lonely he was before he meets Jack

That's beautiful, your saying this scene is the time Ennis has realized and acknowledges that here is one special friend...  (And it's the first time Jack says "Friend," too.)  For Ennis to tell someone about his life -- he's probably darn near never done that before.  And not only that, but his telling Jack "That's the most I spoke in a year" and the quirk of a smile on his face -- that is one loaded moment, full of growing camaraderie but more -- fraught with sexual potential.  Then, the looks that gorgeous Jack gives Ennis throughout that whole interchange are some of the sexiest come-on looks I've ever seen excuse me...

kathy

Wow..Thar's exactly my opinion, as I said in another thread great minds think alike...

[tpe]

You know, I was thinking this morning about have few lines are actually spoken in this film!  With the expection of a few choice scenes there aren't lots of examples of verbal exposition.  Really, the dialogue is so sparse it kind of stuns you when you think about how much we have fleshed out the story in our heads with all the subtext.  Guess all these double meanings have served their purpose! 

On that note ... I remembered the line Cassie says to Junior "you don't say much, but you get your point across".  In general terms, that line could speak for the whole film, I think.

Specific to Cassie, though, it brings to mind the fact that Ennis also doesn't say much, but I'm thinking he's NOT getting his point across so well, or Cassie wouldn't have to ask Junior if Ennis would ever see fit to settle down again.  She has to go to the daughter of the man she's been seeing and sleeping with for some while now to get a handle on his intentions. She's also acknowledging that she appreciates a straight forward response that she can understand.

This line really shows Cassie's frustration at how hard Ennis is to read, IMO.

Not surprising, considering the mixed signals his body and heart had to be throwing off, I guess.

Yes, didn't Alma Jr. so resemble her father at that moment when she talks to Cassie?  There is something wonderfully double-edged in everything she says (and looks!) in that scene.

Very spare, but very rich in meaning.

[welshwitch]

Yes, I always wonder about "Maybe Daddy's not the marrying kind". Does Alma Jr have some sort of inkling what went wrong in her father's marriage? Is she trying to hint to Cassie about something she herself isn't sure of? If so, she might, had Cassie taken the hint, have saved her a lot of heartbreak.

[tpe]

Yes, I always wonder about "Maybe Daddy's not the marrying kind". Does Alma Jr have some sort of inkling what went wrong in her father's marriage? Is she trying to hint to Cassie about something she herself isn't sure of? If so, she might, had Cassie taken the hint, have saved her a lot of heartbreak.

Hello welshwitch.  Patriot1 started a thread a while back about Cassie and her dealings with Alma Jr. and Ennis.  You will find this point discussed very similar to what you suggested.   This was precisely my feeling.  I think you are quite correct here...

[FlwrChild]

Yes, I always wonder about "Maybe Daddy's not the marrying kind". Does Alma Jr have some sort of inkling what went wrong in her father's marriage? Is she trying to hint to Cassie about something she herself isn't sure of? If so, she might, had Cassie taken the hint, have saved her a lot of heartbreak.

Hello welshwitch.  Patriot1 started a thread a while back about Cassie and her dealings with Alma Jr. and Ennis.  You will find this point discussed very similar to what you suggested.   This was precisely my feeling.  I think you are quite correct here...

Me too.

[frances]

Another one.

"Damn you Ennis."
 
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
 
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart

[tpe]

Another one.

"Damn you Ennis."
 
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
 
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart

This is the truth.  That is why it breaks my heart.

[FlwrChild]

Another one.

"Damn you Ennis."
 
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
 
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart

This is the truth.  That is why it breaks my heart.

Yes, something just shoots through me every time I hear him say it. It's so quiet, so simple and so powerful.

[welshwitch]

How terrible to for Ennis to remember this as the last thing Jack says to him.

[Valandil Eluch]

Another one.

"Damn you Ennis."
 
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
 
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart

omg  :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

Another one.

"Damn you Ennis."
 
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
 
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart

What's a day without BBM tears?  :\'( Beautiful  Frances.

[hpv]

In the Opening Scene ,
This scene is striking in its lack of dialog as the two main characters first meet and assess each other in a silent sequence of western male posturing.
The peace and quiet that has flowed from the film's beginning is now loudly disrupted by a passing train. 

First we have the tranquility  and pastoral mood of the mountain,than all that follows interupting their love

[amtamburo]

"Damn you Ennis."
 
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
 
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart

I agree with this...

I've always felt that Jack was saying, I love you Ennis, but he was also a little angry because no matter how mad he is at Ennis it still breaks his heart to see him hurting... he is talking about "quiting" Ennis but Ennis' tears break down all his resolve and make him feel Ennis' pain as much as his own... something he maybe didn't want to do at that point, given all they had just said to each other.

Maybe in a way his "Damn you, Ennis" could also be interpreted as Jack saying, "If you would just admit you love me maybe neither of us would be hurting right now" or "maybe it's because of me that you are like this, but it's your fault we are both lonely and miserable."

Just my thoughts...

[welshwitch]

I supppose "Damn you" is also a compressed expression of extreme frustration, as one sometimes says "Damn it all" at  the beginning of the staing of a point one wants to emphasise.

As far as the train is concerned, it's always been the great symbol of American industrialisation/mechanisation/progress - this one is the antithesis of the pastoral world in which Ennis spends much of his life, but from which Jack moves away - he makes his living selling machines, after all.