Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[MississaugaRed]

Thomas ... those images and those words, together ....    :\'(   Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.

[tpe]

Thomas ... those images and those words, together ....    :\'(   Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.

MississaugaRed, it just dawned on me via these pix that even their looks have so many levels of meaning.

Jake hates Ennis so much in this pix -- but his hate is driven by the hopelessness of his love ofr Ennis.  He is clutching at straws.  His anger is a dagger straight to his heart.  In desperation for his love, he wounds himself with every painful phrase.   

[MississaugaRed]

Thomas ... those images and those words, together ....    :'(   Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.

MississaugaRed, it just dawned on me via these pix that even their looks have so many levels of meaning.

Jake hates Ennis so much in this pix -- but his hate is driven by the hopelessness of his love ofr Ennis.  He is clutching at straws.  His anger is a dagger straight to his heart.  In desperation for his love, he wounds himself with every painful phrase.    

Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins ..  . 
 

When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body.  It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )

Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom.    And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them.  His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.

The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?

[tpe]

Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins ..  . 
 

When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body.  It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )

Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom.    And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them.  His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.

The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?

Yes, MississaugaRed. And as cired earlier, this whole scene is so full of double meanings -- in both things said and those things left unsaid.  It is tunning.  It takes a while to figure out what is the meaning of it all.  On the surface, it is a lovers' quarrel, but not that deep down, we realize that is is a running and compact summary of their relationship.  It is the start of the coda, fittingly enough.  It is Jack's "validiction."  Through pain, anger, and suffering, you see his love for Ennis.  Whether it dies here or not -- it does not matter.  What matters is that we see his love's pain.

[LuvJackNasty]

Thomas ... those images and those words, together ....    :'(   Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.

MississaugaRed, it just dawned on me via these pix that even their looks have so many levels of meaning.

Jake hates Ennis so much in this pix -- but his hate is driven by the hopelessness of his love ofr Ennis.  He is clutching at straws.  His anger is a dagger straight to his heart.  In desperation for his love, he wounds himself with every painful phrase.    

Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins ..  . 
 

When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body.  It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )

Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom.    And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them.  His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.

The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?

Beautifully put! There was a screencap I found and seeing the look on Jack's face, I said "mean Jack". He's so hurt and angry- at himself, at Ennis, at the world. The toll that that love has taken on both of them. 

[MississaugaRed]

Beautifully put! There was a screencap I found and seeing the look on Jack's face, I said "mean Jack". He's so hurt and angry- at himself, at Ennis, at the world. The toll that that love has taken on both of them. 

LJN, we know you understand and love Jack in all his variations. 

I guess a great love will demand a high price ... as you say, the toll taken on both ...   

[ksxks]

Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins ..  . 
 
When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body.  It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )

Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom.    And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them.  His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.

The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?

Oh yes, miss, you said it beautifully -- about our viewing of this intense scene (bracing ourselves in this twister); and then...you're breaking my heart...Ennis not able to remain standing and Jack there to break his fall.  JHC, I am again stunned just reading and thinking about it.  No surprise at all this movie so intensely affects us.  (And I think of how the intensity, even though "acting," would have had to affect Heath and Jake...and besides that, I just want to thank them again and again for giving life to these characters and giving them to us.

kathy

[Valandil Eluch]

Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins ..  . 
 
When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body.  It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )

Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom.    And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them.  His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.

The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?

Oh yes, miss, you said it beautifully -- about our viewing of this intense scene (bracing ourselves in this twister); and then...you're breaking my heart...Ennis not able to remain standing and Jack there to break his fall.  JHC, I am again stunned just reading and thinking about it.  No surprise at all this movie so intensely affects us.  (And I think of how the intensity, even though "acting," would have had to affect Heath and Jake...and besides that, I just want to thank them again and again for giving life to these characters and giving them to us.

kathy

ditto!

[hpv]

As usual I must thank you all here for bringing new meaning to life
 

[tpe]

Thanks everybody.

On to another scene rich in double meanings: the "apple pie" scene between Cassie and Ennis.  There is so much implied underneath every phrase exchanged by these two...

[welshwitch]

Cassie's first question is "Where you been?" Where has Ennis been? Hiding away from the possibilities that present themselves, perhaps, and from becoming too deeply involved in any relationship with a woman ( or even anyone?) because he knows there was and will only ever be Jack. He's killing time, till November in a way; is there even the remotest chance that he's been thinking about himslef and Jack, and has cut himslef off from Cassie because he's starting to know himself? In a way I hope not - it would be the bitterest of ironies if he started to thoink finally of committing to Jack just at the point where Jack dies. 

[tpe]

Cassie's first question is "Where you been?" Where has Ennis been? Hiding away from the possibilities that present themselves, perhaps, and from becoming too deeply involved in any relationship with a woman ( or even anyone?) because he knows there was and will only ever be Jack. He's killing time, till November in a way; is there even the remotest chance that he's been thinking about himslef and Jack, and has cut himslef off from Cassie because he's starting to know himself? In a way I hope not - it would be the bitterest of ironies if he started to thoink finally of committing to Jack just at the point where Jack dies. 

I love the ambiguity of the phrase "Here and there."

[welshwitch]

He's spent his whole life " here" - Riverton - and " there" - with Jack. He's also never entirely known where he wants " here" to be; he evidently doesn't enjoy his working/married life but when he's with Jack can't be there wholeheartedly - when he was talking about making the movie Jake said something about turning up and being present; at the time it struck me that Ennis was never totally present wherever he was.

[KillRoy1972]

Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?

I wish I knew how to quit you.

Translation: I don't know how to quit you.

I will never stop loving you...

[tpe]

Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?

I wish I knew how to quit you.

Translation: I don't know how to quit you.

I will never stop loving you...

Yes, your take is more forceful.  Thank you. 

[ksxks]

Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?

I wish I knew how to quit you.

Translation: I don't know how to quit you.

I will never stop loving you...

Yes, your take is more forceful.  Thank you. 

Very beautiful...

kathy

[MississaugaRed]

Running through this thread again brings many   :\'(    ...

Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?

I wish I knew how to quit you.

Translation: I don't know how to quit you.

I will never stop loving you...

And he never does ....   :\'(

Another line from early on - "You gonna do this again next summer?" - maybe Jack's way of asking "Am I going to see you again?" or "Do you WANT to see me again?"

With Ennis responding by saying "maybe not" in answer to the prosaic; and perhaps hurting Jack's heart a little at the implied response to the subtext of his question??

[FlwrChild]

I'm sure of it MissRed.
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.

[MississaugaRed]

I'm sure of it MissRed.
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.

Yes, FlwrChld, that's our Jack ... always giving Ennis a second (or one-hundred-and-second) chance to accept what Jack is offering him.

[NoReins]

It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"

4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.

[FlwrChild]

It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"

4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.

Agreed on all counts!

[tpe]

Running through this thread again brings many   :\'(    ...

Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?

I wish I knew how to quit you.

Translation: I don't know how to quit you.

I will never stop loving you...

And he never does ....   :\'(

Another line from early on - "You gonna do this again next summer?" - maybe Jack's way of asking "Am I going to see you again?" or "Do you WANT to see me again?"

With Ennis responding by saying "maybe not" in answer to the prosaic; and perhaps hurting Jack's heart a little at the implied response to the subtext of his question??

MississaugaRed, I do think you are right here.  I felt Jack was clutching on straws at this point.  He would have probably been happy if he just found some excuse to hook up in the near future...

[tpe]

I'm sure of it MissRed.
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.

I might be back, if the army don't get me.


Meaning: I will be back if it's just up to me.

[tpe]

It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"

4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.

NoReins, you read my mind here.  Jack was telling Ennis his own intention of coming back, and hopes Ennis will be able to see him again.

"please want me - 'cos I want you"   This way of saying it is beautiful. 

[MississaugaRed]

It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"

4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.

NoReins, you read my mind here.  Jack was telling Ennis his own intention of coming back, and hopes Ennis will be able to see him again.

"please want me - 'cos I want you"   This way of saying it is beautiful. 

Yes, beautiful! 

And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice.  He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before.  Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.

[tpe]

[And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice.  He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before.  Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.

Equally beautiful, and true, IMO.  He didn't lose hope that Ennis would want them to meet again... 

I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack. 

[NoReins]

[And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice.  He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before.  Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.

Equally beautiful, and true, IMO.  He didn't lose hope that Ennis would want them to meet again... 

I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack. 

Oh I think Ennis definitely hoped he'd see Jack again but I also think that he felt that if he didn't it was his own fault - the full line being "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you was sore from that punch". He thinks that he's driven Jack away because of the punch thrown out of frustration and devastation at having to leave the mountain early....maybe that's even the answer to the question about why Ennis didn't try to contact Jack?

Sorry, way off topic there....sometimes my mind just wanders off without me

[FlwrChild]

[And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice.  He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before.  Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.

Equally beautiful, and true, IMO.  He didn't lose hope that Ennis would want them to meet again... 

I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack. 

Too passive, unfortunately.

[MississaugaRed]

I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack. 

That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad.     Thank you!

It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack.  Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and  later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance.  That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.

When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack.  I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not.  Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I am devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".

[FlwrChild]

I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack. 

That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad.     Thank you!

It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack.  Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and  later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance.  That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.

When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack.  I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not.  Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I have devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".

Beautiful MissRed!