Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines (Read 405105 times)

tpe · « **Reply #360 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 05:58 PM »

Quote from: maggie on Jun 13, 2007, 02:51 PM

I read so much into this line. Ennis is so lost by this part in the movie and he needs someone to blame it on. Jack is that person.
He's divorced and living alone in that little trailer. He can't bring himself to love another woman no matter how much or
how little he tried with Cassie. You know he wants to be with Jack but can't because of what his father did to him so many years ago.

If Jack hadn't died i think he would have been content on a couple of "high alltitude f*cks once or twice a year" for the rest of his life.

so sad

This line and when Jack say's out by the fire "sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it" are the two lines
where i can't control my crying no matter how many times i've seen it. :\'(

Thanks maggie, for sharing this. Yes, these two lines always bring tears to my eyes. They are so simple and straightforward on one level -- but we understand all too well the hidden meanings in each one!

orangetruck · « **Reply #361 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 06:50 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jun 13, 2007, 05:55 PM

The remains of the sheep is an image that does embody multiple meanings, as discussed in the thread dealing with this scene.

Perhaps Ennis heeded the premonition -- but alas, in the wrong way!

Wrong I would say, sure.

The usual way, yes.
Ennis responds to devastation in a very prominent, stifled manner, no?
I think if Earl had ever been swallowed, overcome, he was then brilliantly displayed in that sheep's crimson open-gut stage.
Stage fright/Ennis - day/night.
I've been intrigued by the similarities in these Ennis lines, checkpoints around the mountain so to speak:

Ennis: This is a one shot thing we got goin' here.
***
Jack, pulling a sheep by its hine legs: f*** Aguire!
Ennis: f*** Aguire? ... we gotta stick this out, Jack.
***
Ennis: .. if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it! $:-\\$
Jack: .. for how long?

Ennis: As long as we can ride it.
***
Jack: What are we gonna do now? $:-\\$
Ennis: I doubt there's nothin' we can do.

***
Now, these aren't necessarily double meanings but they filter out like pebbles of fool's gold in my mind, especially once we see Ennis collapse in Jack's embrace: I can't stand this anymore, Jack, ahh! :\'(

I think Ennis was wiser than he'd thought himself, saying what he had. But it was so impossible for him to hear anything other than the wicked chimes of the once Earl. And now Ennis hears chimes again, the rhythm, the melody of Jack, a man with whom he'd found love without condition, blowing over the grass of the great open plain. Something that will never die as long as the winds still blow. This must be hauntingly beautiful music in his ears.
And replacing Earl, replacing the lame, still-framed sheep, this one here is his.
And always will be.

:\'(

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #362 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 07:15 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jun 13, 2007, 06:35 AM

Hell would be Heaven with the two of them there!

Another one that just occured to me: "We could have had a good life together..."

Somehow, I feel here a premonition that life would soon be over -- for Jack, I mean. Did he somehow sense that this was the last time?

Oh God :\'( - that scene is so hard to take as it is

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #363 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 07:20 PM »

Quote from: orangetruck on Jun 13, 2007, 08:20 AM

"I ain't queer"

Similar to how that split-open sheep that lay like violent art in front of a somehow emotional Ennis that first Summer foreshadowed the fate of this homosexual relationship, "We coulda had a good life together" confirms.

All those years having fallen against him had rendered Jack this premonition, if not the wrecked equivelent of a threatening rejection from Ennis -- his blurred profile, hard spit to the ground and his back the violent art this time. Jack could no longer fool himself into believing Ennis could change. Ennis was Brokeback Mountain, as was Jack. This is what he came to know as he burst out, ".. and what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! ..": The mountain had taken a sheep, but this time it would take a real man. Jack was sur'nuf about as well off as knowing he would die tomorrow, seeing his love deteriorate now. Feeling that dozy embrace bleed to death as Ennis' truck stirred dust around the bend.

On horseback that Summer, staring down at something tragic, at something he couldn't understand, Ennis found an open bloody pair of shirts. Middle aged, watching Ennis walk away, Jack sees something awful, almost like a reflection on Ennis' back; the mountain had their love.

One gem, one lesson is that you don't f*** with mother nature; and, Ennis, you don't suppress it. Remember that.

:\'(

OMG This is so sad and beautiful :\'(

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #364 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 07:21 PM »

Quote from: jackster on Jun 13, 2007, 04:07 PM

Oh man, I like this one aintfoolin'.

Here I always thought them sheep got scared by the lightin' and thunder storm that night. Your sayin' maybe it was the noises coming from the tent? So when Jack says "You'll get pitched off your mount in a storm like this" he's not talkin' about no horse?

How'd I miss that one?

oh I needed that after the last few posts I read- I love them aintfoolin and Jackster

ksxks · « **Reply #365 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 09:29 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jun 13, 2007, 06:08 AM

Jack's harmonica playing was off. Their relationship was a little off key too. But just like his musical talent he never gave up trying to get it right, He finally got the misic right, but he did'nt fare so well or *get lucky* when Ennis threw him by not committing to live with him.

Besides , I think Ennis loved Jack's harmonica playing. His teasing was just Ennis's way of being warm and fuzzy with Jack though he'd never admit it.

Exactly, aintfoolin -- the word "threw" is significant here. And the whole thing of Jack being off-key (to Ennis's old ways of thinking anyway). Off-key, even "twisted," you could say.

As for Ennis razzing Jack about his harmonica playing, I also see it as like an endearment, when he does that. The best way he knows of at that time to be "warm and fuzzy" with Jack.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #366 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 09:30 PM »

Quote from: orangetruck on Jun 13, 2007, 06:16 AM

I simply won't bitch that I'm easily amused.
I remember when I first saw this scene, being a bit caught off guard at Ennis saying something layered and witty. The combination of Ennis' punched out words and his wit in this scene was a subtle and brilliant work of art done by Ang I'd figured.
Love it.

Yes, and to show them starting to get more comfortable with each other. Or, more accurately, to show Ennis getting more comfortable.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #367 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 09:33 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jun 13, 2007, 06:35 AM

Hell would be Heaven with the two of them there!

Another one that just occured to me: "We could have had a good life together..."

Somehow, I feel here a premonition that life would soon be over -- for Jack, I mean. Did he somehow sense that this was the last time?

Maybe not so specifically, but certainly at that point in his life, in our lives, we come to think there might be less ahead of us than behind us. That statement does seem to indicate that Jack had given up on his dream with Ennis by that point...but then, when Ennis broke down, and he throws up his hands and gives in, once again, it would seem he is willing to not throw away the dream just yet.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #368 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 09:37 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jun 13, 2007, 07:24 AM

I think it was more in the *deadpan* way that he said it that made me laugh. ( Even Jack laughed) . I feel it was just a tease just like later, when Ennis says " you'll scare them sheep off again if you don;t quiet down" Again it's his voice. That deep mid-western drawl and yes the way he almost punches the words out. It's as though his words come out of the blue and ya don't expect him to be so witty,givin his overall quiet , bashful manner.
It's Ennis being light. Does it several times in the film. When he relates to Jack what his dad thought of "rodeo cowboys" Jack gives him that look and gives the " the hell they are" . Ennis just looks at Jack and says" well" and that's all, suggesting that Jack was a f_ck-up too. Jack then goes into his little "rodeo ride" making Ennis's face light up like a Christmas tree for the first time in the film. I love it too.

The horses and mules even looked startled and curious when Jack fell. What a charming goofball Jack is Now that's funny.

Oh yes -- Ennis's moments of lightness and dry wit are so charming! Especially the one you mention. He knows he'll get a rise out of Jack by saying that. His way of encouraging Jack to be Jack for him, to amuse them both.

kathy

ksxks · « **Reply #369 on:** Jun 13, 2007, 09:41 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jun 13, 2007, 03:15 PM

Do you think Ennis ever said " you'll scare the sheep off again, if you don't quiet down" while they were ....well you know..? That look they gave each other after Ennis said this maybe telling!... as if Jack has heard it before? Or am imagining too much?

Oh god I love this! Never thought of it. No, you are not imagining too much!

That look between them (though we just see Ennis's face) I have always felt is distinctly flirtatious, or sharing some erotic connection, something like that. I love the idea that Jack is noisy in the tent (or wherever). Probably scared the sh*t out of Ennis the first time. I mean, not FNIT, but first time Jack came nice and long let's say...

kathy

aintfoolin · « **Reply #370 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 05:29 AM »

My imagination just went totally wild just now! OMG, the pictures going thru my mind ........

Twisted · « **Reply #371 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 07:27 AM »

Quote from: ksxks on Jun 13, 2007, 09:41 PM

Oh god I love this! Never thought of it. No, you are not imagining too much!

That look between them (though we just see Ennis's face) I have always felt is distinctly flirtatious, or sharing some erotic connection, something like that. I love the idea that Jack is noisy in the tent (or wherever). Probably scared the sh*t out of Ennis the first time. I mean, not FNIT, but first time Jack came nice and long let's say...

kathy

Oh Lord. Just to imagine that, makes me

orangetruck · « **Reply #372 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 11:59 AM »

Oh yes. Jack 'arrrrrriiiiiiving' anywhere always makes me

(

tpe · « **Reply #373 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 01:23 PM »

Quote from: ksxks on Jun 13, 2007, 09:33 PM

Maybe not so specifically, but certainly at that point in his life, in our lives, we come to think there might be less ahead of us than behind us. That statement does seem to indicate that Jack had given up on his dream with Ennis by that point...but then, when Ennis broke down, and he throws up his hands and gives in, once again, it would seem he is willing to not throw away the dream just yet.

kathy

This certainly makes sense. Thank you, kathy.

tpe · « **Reply #374 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 01:30 PM »

Quote from: orangetruck on Jun 13, 2007, 06:50 PM

I think Ennis was wiser than he'd thought himself, saying what he had. But it was so impossible for him to hear anything other than the wicked chimes of the once Earl. And now Ennis hears chimes again, the rhythm, the melody of Jack, a man with whom he'd found love without condition, blowing over the grass of the great open plain. Something that will never die as long as the winds still blow. This must be hauntingly beautiful music in his ears.
And replacing Earl, replacing the lame, still-framed sheep, this one here is his.
And always will be.

:\'(

Jack f*ckin Twist, he's got it all figured out...

At least this would also seem to be an underhanded admission from Ennis that Jack did have things figured out. Perhaps Ennis resented the fact that he could never pull away from the spectre of Earl. But perhaps he understood what Jack was offering as an alternative...

orangetruck · « **Reply #375 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 01:44 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jun 14, 2007, 01:30 PM

Jack f*ckin Twist, he's got it all figured out...

At least this would also seem to be an underhanded admission from Ennis that Jack did have things figured out. Perhaps Ennis resented the fact that he could never pull away from the spectre of Earl. But perhaps he understood what Jack was offering as an alternative...

I honestly think so. I tend to believe most of his frustration does come from the dissolving of Earl's image by the presence of Jack. Ennis had been solidified in such an old, crippling image, that he must've found it difficult to trust leaving him now without consequence. I think there was fear in anything to do with the animation of his past. And fear, like about every other emotion, was something Ennis struggled to project - namely due to the dimness of never seeing them as options.
This said, Jack's love was driving him crazy but necessarily away from 9.
They make a brilliant couple, IMO.

tpe · « **Reply #376 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 01:52 PM »

Quote from: orangetruck on Jun 14, 2007, 01:44 PM

I honestly think so. I tend to believe most of his frustration does come from the dissolving of Earl's image by the presence of Jack. Ennis had been solidified in such an old, crippling image, that he must've found it difficult to trust leaving him now without consequence. I think there was fear in anything to do with the animation of his past. And fear, like about every other emotion, was something Ennis struggled to project - namely due to the dimness of never seeing them as options.
This said, Jack's love was driving him crazy but necessarily away from 9.
They make a brilliant couple, IMO.

He did indeed try to project his fears onto Jack. Witness the scene where Ennis asks Jack if he gets the fealing that people "know". Again, Ennis's questions have a double meaning -- he is asking Jack if he sometimes feels uncomfortable with who he is.

orangetruck · « **Reply #377 on:** Jun 14, 2007, 02:15 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jun 14, 2007, 01:52 PM

He did indeed try to project his fears onto Jack. Witness the scene where Ennis asks Jack if he gets the fealing that people "know". Again, Ennis's questions have a double meaning -- he is asking Jack if he sometimes feels uncomfortable with who he is.

Yes. It is also something how Jake nonverbally answers with the shrugged gesture. And how he suggests Ennis should move away, maybe to Texas, I feel is his way of counteracting the question. Jack, always driven towards the bigger picture, was (sub)conciously always towing Ennis from his past by selfless and selfish means, IMO.
I think he was significantly becoming intolerant of such homophobia especially right there on Brokeback, their supposed sanctuary.
And as Jack turns and walks away, trying to ignore the rest, Ennis: Jack fu**in' Twist, got it all figured out..

Like you mentioned, I think his resentment starts to boil just as Jack's had begun to. I think these two were so identical in that they needed each other, specifically - Only, their fears were of different manifestations but incubated under the same star.

tpe · « **Reply #378 on:** Jun 15, 2007, 08:12 AM »

Quote from: orangetruck on Jun 14, 2007, 02:15 PM

Yes. It is also something how Jake nonverbally answers with the shrugged gesture. And how he suggests Ennis should move away, maybe to Texas, I feel is his way of counteracting the question. Jack, always driven towards the bigger picture, was (sub)conciously always towing Ennis from his past by selfless and selfish means, IMO.
I think he was significantly becoming intolerant of such homophobia especially right there on Brokeback, their supposed sanctuary.
And as Jack turns and walks away, trying to ignore the rest, Ennis: Jack f***in' Twist, got it all figured out..

Like you mentioned, I think his resentment starts to boil just as Jack's had begun to. I think these two were so identical in that they needed each other, specifically - Only, their fears were of different manifestations but incubated under the same star.

Maybe you should get outa there...

One possible translation: Come with me. I take you as you are.

orangetruck · « **Reply #379 on:** Jun 15, 2007, 01:26 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jun 15, 2007, 08:12 AM

Maybe you should get outa there...

One possible translation: Come with me. I take you as you are.

Most definitely!

aintfoolin · « **Reply #380 on:** Jun 15, 2007, 04:30 PM »

" well try this one" ----Jack's POV. his summary of the relationship"
and I'll say it just once"--- You have your reasons but liisten up really good Ennis , I'm not going to repeat this and this is final. I have something to say and have been wanting to say it for a long time......I need you more than 3 or 4 times a year. I can't stand this roller-coaster ride no more . Thinkin bout quittin ya, but I can't. I never felt you wanted it as much as I did., now it's too late!
Jack has such a passion for their love. I greatly admire him for it.

Ennis: " Go ahead" -----explain yourself, explain Mexico.

"All them things I dont't know will get you killed if I come to know them", and I aint foolin."

---If I find out you've been bed-hopping and cheating around on me all this time, , I may get violent with ya. The thought of you with someone else....

I'm very jealous.,Your mine Jack ...only mine.

Also means Ennis saying: I love you and care for you so much and I'm afraid if your too careless, and I'm not there to protect you , you might get hurt or killed. I'm scared so please don't put me in the position of having to live without you like Earl and Rich. I've been faithful to you and I expect you to be too. It's safer for us that way. My takes.

orangetruck · « **Reply #381 on:** Jun 15, 2007, 04:39 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jun 15, 2007, 04:30 PM

Also means Ennis saying: I love you and care for you so much and I'm afraid if your too careless, and I'm not there to protect you , you might get hurt or killed. I'm scared so please don't put me in the position of having to live without you like Earl and Rich. I've been faithful to you and I expect you to be too. It's safer for us that way. My takes.

These are nice points.
Too bad their ideas of being faithful were so hollowed by the empty relationships they had with the women in their lives, and with society. I understand Ennis' intentions to protect Jack, but without Ennis' graduation from his past, this notion is merely just that - a lost cause. Not that either had control of it. It's just that every single thing that happened between them was for a reason. Brokeback had it's reasons and, to be felt, they went down like tent spikes.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #382 on:** Jun 15, 2007, 05:56 PM »

Right. Their concepts of faithfulness to their wives is very different from the way they thought of each other.
I think their was so much more of an emotional bond there between the two of them. A solid connection. Wives or other women in their lives would never pose a direct threat to what they had after Ennis's divorce. They both compartmentalized both relatioships on this matter. IMO Niether was going to break up the relationship, to get seriously * involved* with a woman. Lureen and Cassie, Alma ( and possibly LaShawn..( I shudder to think..) were evidence of that. they all served a purpose in their lives, but to be in a consistent loving relationship with them? No, they reserved this for themselves though they suffered within it too in a different way.

orangetruck · « **Reply #383 on:** Jun 15, 2007, 06:30 PM »

I think Ennis having discovered Jack's trip to Mexico before his death was a chance for Ennis to foresee a loss. It's unfortunate the first clues weren't as bloody direct as the shirts were bound to be.
On staying alive: Ennis had a fear disillusioning that which would keep Jack safe. In such the disillusion of fear, Ennis had possibly overlooked Jack's 'trip' for some insecure foregound to the past, rather than the only resource Jack knew from which to draw the essence of Ennis, this one and only thing that they'd come to utilize as means of expressing the unspoken love.
Although Ennis knew these sorts of things could lead to death anywhere else, he couldn't trust shacking up with Jack due to fear having pinpointed him from all directions; hearing the 'threat' of Jack with another man certainly rang loud in Ennis' ears, IMO - probaby with several notes. But reflexes had him in survival mode for his reasons, and the delivery of Jack's plea here was a little gawd damn less than satisfactory.
I think "I love you" had been reshashed so many times that Mother Nature herself was becoming insecure. $:-\\$

goblondie · « **Reply #384 on:** Jun 16, 2007, 03:21 AM »

For me there is a doble meaning in the scene where Ennis find the two shirts in Jacks closet, and in the scene where he opens his own closet with his own and Jacks shirts hanging on the door.
In Denmark we have an expression saying when a homosexual (gay and lesbian)is accepting his own sexuality and starting to show the society and family that he is a gay, "he is coming out of the closet".

In the scene where Ennis find Jack shirt its still in Jacks closet with Jacks shirt around his own, but Jacks closet is a sort of open closet. Thats showing me that Jack has accepted his own sexuality and startet to open toward society, but not quiet open since he would be in to much danger still.
In the scene in Ennis home where Ennis opens his closet door, we see the to shirts again, now with his own shirt around Jacks and with a pic of BBM next to the shirt.
Thats showing me that now Ennis has started to accept his own sexuality,his love and starting to open up to society(we see the world in a window next to the closet), not all yet since the shirts are still in the closet, but Jack is on his way.And that he accepted and understood what happened on BBM.He has opened his door and is starting to come out his closet.
Also first time when we see the to shirts with Ennis shirt inside Jacks tells me that Jack had Ennis in his heart all those years what ever happended between them and with Randall, it was Ennis Jack wanted and not Randall.
Now Jacks shirt is inside Ennis shirt and heart for the rest of Ennis life.

tpe · « **Reply #385 on:** Jun 18, 2007, 08:18 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jun 15, 2007, 04:30 PM

" well try this one" ----Jack's POV. his summary of the relationship"
and I'll say it just once"--- You have your reasons but liisten up really good Ennis , I'm not going to repeat this and this is final. I have something to say and have been wanting to say it for a long time......I need you more than 3 or 4 times a year. I can't stand this roller-coaster ride no more . Thinkin bout quittin ya, but I can't. I never felt you wanted it as much as I did., now it's too late!
Jack has such a passion for their love. I greatly admire him for it.

Ennis: " Go ahead" -----explain yourself, explain Mexico.

"All them things I dont't know will get you killed if I come to know them", and I aint foolin."

---If I find out you've been bed-hopping and cheating around on me all this time, , I may get violent with ya. The thought of you with someone else.... I'm very jealous.,Your mine Jack ...only mine.

Also means Ennis saying: I love you and care for you so much and I'm afraid if your too careless, and I'm not there to protect you , you might get hurt or killed. I'm scared so please don't put me in the position of having to live without you like Earl and Rich. I've been faithful to you and I expect you to be too. It's safer for us that way. My takes.

It is interesting to note that in another older thread, a similar dual interpretation to this scene was also proposed. That the words "...would get you killed if I come to know them" could also mean that Jack would get himself killed for not being discreet.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #386 on:** Jul 08, 2007, 12:15 PM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned (if so, sorry). I watched it a few nights ago and "We ought to go to Mexico" stood out at me. When Jack says "We ought to go to Mexico" he's just saying we ought to go where it's okay for us to be together. It happens down there and there aren't men with tire irons waiting to hunt you down and kill you. Or at least that's how I saw it this particular viewing.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #387 on:** Jul 08, 2007, 09:21 PM »

I wonder about that too. Jack's brings up Mexico because he's doesn't to go to Brokeback in November when its' cold, but does he also bring it up because it's safer, and they could be more open? but then this leaves the door open for Ennis and the "Boy like you" comment, he wasn't entirely ignorant of what went on down there.

welshwitch · « **Reply #388 on:** Jul 09, 2007, 05:33 AM »

Ennis wouldn't go to Mexico, because he already has a stereotype of what went on there. That's where gay men go and he isn't gay. "Mexico" has only one meaning for Ennis. He never moves far from his comfort zone, and that's the west, small towns, ranches, mountains. He isn't even interested in going to Texas - look at his reaction when Jack mentions it. I have a sort of feeling that Texas, or the his idea of it, is too big altogether for Ennis, whose horizons are so limited.

When he talks about walking round the coffee-pot looking for the handle, he's joking, but actually describing himself quite well - going round in circles getting nowhere, sticking with the familiar, doing only what he knows he can do.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #389 on:** Jul 09, 2007, 06:20 AM »

Totally agree with WW, Jack even bringing up Mexico where its warmer than Brokeback in November, showed us Ennis sure knew what went on in Mexico, and more than sun and warm temps.

Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines (Read 405105 times)

manhattangirl

manhattangirl