Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines (Read 416438 times)

tpe · « **Reply #420 on:** Aug 17, 2007, 07:34 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 17, 2007, 05:22 AM

"Was probably no fun anyway, was I?" is on the surface just Ennis describing himself - not a very sociable guy, not the life and soul of the party, not frivolous. It's Alma who suggests taking Jack out - the thought never crosses Ennis's mind. It's Alma who wonders why Jack didn;t come in for a coffee, alma who wants to go to the church social, Cassie who wants to dance.....So to me it also says that he considers that women have to be amused, entertained, are in some ways less serious than men. It never occurs to him that Jack doesn't care whether or not he's fun to be with, because it's not an issue. Speaks volumes about the strength of their relationship, IMO.

I do think that the second meaning what what got Cassie to reply "Girls don't fall in love with fun." Thanks WW. That was good.

liketheyallknow · « **Reply #421 on:** Aug 17, 2007, 05:13 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 17, 2007, 05:22 AM

"Was probably no fun anyway, was I?" is on the surface just Ennis describing himself - not a very sociable guy, not the life and soul of the party, not frivolous. It's Alma who suggests taking Jack out - the thought never crosses Ennis's mind. It's Alma who wonders why Jack didn;t come in for a coffee, alma who wants to go to the church social, Cassie who wants to dance.....So to me it also says that he considers that women have to be amused, entertained, are in some ways less serious than men. It never occurs to him that Jack doesn't care whether or not he's fun to be with, because it's not an issue. Speaks volumes about the strength of their relationship, IMO.

The irony is, Ennis could be fun - with Jack, especially in the early days. Those lovely touches on BB - the harmonica quips, and after the reunion by the campfire. ENnis doesn't see him himself as fun in the conventional way perhaps. How little we know ourselves. One of the saddest messages from the film is the suppression of Ennis's warm, soft side.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #422 on:** Aug 21, 2007, 04:09 AM »

One scene has irked me and may have a double meaning but I have not been able to figure it out yet and that is when Aguirre shows up unexpectedly after spying on Jack and Ennis the morning after SNIT. Jack seems very suspicious of Aguirre when he says " aint much I can do about it up here", . ( regarding his sick uncle) Aguirre says " Aint much you can do about it down there either" , Unless you can cure pnuemonia" then they both stare at Ennis. Does anyone have a clue here about what Aguirre is really saying ? I get the feeling of some hidden meaning. Maybe it has something to do with seeing Jack and Ennis outside, in the cold, but obviously heating things up

?

manhattangirl · « **Reply #423 on:** Aug 21, 2007, 04:57 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Aug 21, 2007, 04:09 AM

One scene has irked me and may have a double meaning but I have not been able to figure it out yet and that is when Aguirre shows up unexpectedly after spying on Jack and Ennis the morning after SNIT. Jack seems very suspicious of Aguirre when he says " aint much I can do about it up here", . ( regarding his sick uncle) Aguirre says " Aint much you can do about it down there either" , Unless you can cure pnuemonia" then they both stare at Ennis. Does anyone have a clue here about what Aguirre is really saying ? I get the feeling of some hidden meaning. Maybe it has something to do with seeing Jack and Ennis outside, in the cold, but obviously heating things up ?

When Aguirre pulls out those big old binoculars, That was a classic "Gotcha" moment, Jack must have thought "Oh sh@t he saw us". Jack must have known that he and Ennis got caught out there.

tpe · « **Reply #424 on:** Aug 21, 2007, 06:49 AM »

I have initially been puzzled also about this scene. I think manhattangirl and I share the same feeling that when Aguirre looks up to where Ennis was with his binoculars, he was also informing Jack that he had been watching them. I had wondered though whether his comments held any additional meaning...

welshwitch · « **Reply #425 on:** Aug 21, 2007, 12:50 PM »

On the surface at least the comment about not being able to do anything about it seems to be just Aguirre telling Jack how powerless ( and by implication worthless) he is.

But to me the "ain't much you can do about it" also sums up a great truth about the relationship between J and E. There really isn't anything they can do about it.

JT · « **Reply #426 on:** Aug 21, 2007, 01:50 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 21, 2007, 12:50 PM

On the surface at least the comment about not being able to do anything about it seems to be just Aguirre telling Jack how powerless ( and by implication worthless) he is.

But to me the "ain't much you can do about it" also sums up a great truth about the relationship between J and E. There really isn't anything they can do about it.

That make sense.

They are being watched up in the mountain and they are being watched again down there.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #427 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 05:46 AM »

Thanks guys, WW Tpe and MG, once again I am enlightened by your thoughts here, it's just something that has puzzled me every time I watched the film.

What about this one:

Ennis at Thanksgiving: grabs Alma's arm and says " You don't know nothin about it Alma" Oh but she did know something about it, Ennis just wished she did'nt. He was gonna " make her eat the f-ckin floor" He was not trying to hear what he knew she knew. What ticked Ennis off the most? that she knew? or that she was calling Jack "nasty names? I love protective , jealous, Ennis.

tpe · « **Reply #428 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 07:01 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 21, 2007, 12:50 PM

On the surface at least the comment about not being able to do anything about it seems to be just Aguirre telling Jack how powerless ( and by implication worthless) he is.

But to me the "ain't much you can do about it" also sums up a great truth about the relationship between J and E. There really isn't anything they can do about it.

Yes, exactly, Aguirre wanted to put Jack in his place, and say "you are in the hollow of my hand."

And I like your double meaning on the phrase "ain't much you can do about it": it is quite true.

tpe · « **Reply #429 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 07:10 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Aug 22, 2007, 05:46 AM

Thanks guys, WW Tpe and MG, once again I am enlightened by your thoughts here, it's just something that has puzzled me every time I watched the film.

What about this one:

Ennis at Thanksgiving: grabs Alma's arm and says " You don't know nothin about it Alma" Oh but she did know something about it, Ennis just wished she did'nt. He was gonna " make her eat the f-ckin floor" He was not trying to hear what he knew she knew. What ticked Ennis off the most? that she knew? or that she was calling Jack "nasty names? I love protective , jealous, Ennis.

I had always assumed that by saying " You don't know nothin about it Alma", Ennis was saying 2 things: (1) that she didn't know and understand the bond between him and Jack, and (2) Ennis was telling Alma to back off and stay within the unspoken boundaries that have defined their relationship ever since the reunion scene. Ennis knew that Alma knew -- he was too careless. But he had always assumed that Alma would keep quiet, because it suited both their interests. Revealing such a thing to the rest of society would certainly be bad for them both as well as for the children. They would be tainted, so to speak. That Alma threatened to violate this must have surprised and angered Ennis. But even with this, I am sure that Ennis felt deeply hurt by Alma's hostility to Jack. What Ennis said pretty much tells Alma that there was a part of Ennis she never understood and never reached -- and that part was solely Jack's.

welshwitch · « **Reply #430 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 11:36 AM »

It's also maybe Ennis clinging deperately to what he wants to believe - that Alma has no idea of the nature of his relationship with
Jack. As long as it's not spoken about, not acknowledged by anyone, when Jack isn't there he can deny even to himself that he's "queer". but if Alma, who knows him as well as anyone apart from Jack, puts it into words, the unsayable will have been said and will be out in the open. I don't think he'd be afraid of her telling Monroe or anyone else - the stigma would affect her too - I think he's much more afraid of the idea of hearing the words that describe his realtionship with Jack being said aloud.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #431 on:** Aug 22, 2007, 05:43 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 21, 2007, 06:49 AM

I have initially been puzzled also about this scene. I think manhattangirl and I share the same feeling that when Aguirre looks up to where Ennis was with his binoculars, he was also informing Jack that he had been watching them. I had wondered though whether his comments held any additional meaning...

Yes this seems to explain alot and perhaps to expand on it , during the later scene Jack says " Aguirre came back, says to" bring em down" . Well he was referring to the sheep, but could also be taken as Aguirre bringing whatever was happening up there beween the 2 dueces was going to be "brought down" too. " the snow barely stuck an hour Ennis said. I wonder if there was really a worse storm coming at all or was it Aguirre feeling he had to end this early because of what he saw. It sure brought Ennis down, taking out his emotions about it on Jack.
Forever would have been too soon as far as Ennis was concerned. The worse storm was brewing within him being cut off unexpectedly from his Jack like this. This scared Ennis more than any snow or lightening could , trying to prolong the whole thing by taking off to sit alone on the hill. Finally Jack sees him, lassos him saying " Time to get going cowboy" This finality seemed to push Ennis over the edge imo. He had to leave the mountain ?

After this experience? %(He was'nt ready to give Jack up yet. MO.

tpe · « **Reply #432 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 07:10 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 22, 2007, 11:36 AM

It's also maybe Ennis clinging deperately to what he wants to believe - that Alma has no idea of the nature of his relationship with
Jack. As long as it's not spoken about, not acknowledged by anyone, when Jack isn't there he can deny even to himself that he's "queer". but if Alma, who knows him as well as anyone apart from Jack, puts it into words, the unsayable will have been said and will be out in the open. I don't think he'd be afraid of her telling Monroe or anyone else - the stigma would affect her too - I think he's much more afraid of the idea of hearing the words that describe his realtionship with Jack being said aloud.

I think this is also very probable. He didn't want it verbalized -- he must have felt it more this way. There was no denying it when it is said by a third party.

tpe · « **Reply #433 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 07:13 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Aug 22, 2007, 05:43 PM

Yes this seems to explain alot and perhaps to expand on it , during the later scene Jack says " Aguirre came back, says to" bring em down" . Well he was referring to the sheep, but could also be taken as Aguirre bringing whatever was happening up there beween the 2 dueces was going to be "brought down" too. " the snow barely stuck an hour Ennis said. I wonder if there was really a worse storm coming at all or was it Aguirre feeling he had to end this early because of what he saw. It sure brought Ennis down, taking out his emotions about it on Jack.
Forever would have been too soon as far as Ennis was concerned. The worse storm was brewing within him being cut off unexpectedly from his Jack like this. This scared Ennis more than any snow or lightening could , trying to prolong the whole thing by taking off to sit alone on the hill. Finally Jack sees him, lassos him saying " Time to get going cowboy" This finality seemed to push Ennis over the edge imo. He had to leave the mountain ? After this experience? %(He was'nt ready to give Jack up yet. MO.

I admit that I had never thought of it this way, although it did enter my mind many times that part of the reason why Aguirre was cutting their time in BBM short was to put an end to the dalliance that he thought interfered with their doing the job well.

tpe · « **Reply #434 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 07:15 AM »

I jsut mentioned this double meaning in another htread, and I am not sure if this had already been mention (I don't think it has been mentioned before).

When Jack asks Ennis if he was doing this again next summer, I think coded in the question was the more importatnt question to Jack: do you want to see me again. It would seem by Ennis's anser that the response to the pertinent question was "No".

welshwitch · « **Reply #435 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 02:04 PM »

Yes, Jack is clearly implying that if Ennis was going to be there, he would, or could, be there too. As soon as Ennis mentions marrying Alma - why shoud that prevent his going back to work on the mountain if he hadn't found permanent employment? - Jack clearly reads that as saying that he wants to close off this chapter in his life.He does try, by saying that he'll be back if the army doesn't get him, to tell Ennis where he'll be next year. Ennis's response, "See you around" seems to me the equivalent of "We must do lunch sometime" or "I'll give you a call" ie a polite but meaningless form of words. This is why, IMO, Jack doesn't offer him a lift and drives off in tears.

proulxfan · « **Reply #436 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 08:24 PM »

WW and tpe,

I had always, from the first time I saw the film, interpreted Jack's question this way:"Will/can we see each other again?" The fleetingly brief, pleading look he give Ennis, followed by the lowering of his head, suggests he is crushed by Ennis's apparent brushoff. WW I think you're right on target with your take on this, although I had never made the connection with his dejection being the reason he doesn't offer Ennis a ride.
Very interesting...

ksxks · « **Reply #437 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 10:16 PM »

proulxfan, this is beautifully said, and so sad. That look, the lowering of his head. He was bravely trying to ask Ennis if they could continue this...and then was so crushed.

kathy

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #438 on:** Aug 23, 2007, 10:27 PM »

Great posts. I always took that as Jack feeling Ennis out without directly asking him as well. That little eyebrow raise and then a little later the change of espression when he says "I might be back....". It never occured to me that was why Jack didn't offer him a ride though.

welshwitch · « **Reply #439 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 05:35 AM »

I got on a train once and let it pull out of the station - a few hundred yards down the line I knew I'd done the wrong thing, but it was too late to go back. As I'd got on I'd been in too much turmoil to think clearly; that's the state I think Jack's in as he drives away. I chose one course of action, as Jack does " and that has made all the difference".

aintfoolin · « **Reply #440 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 06:39 PM »

These are all wonderful posts indeed ,if I may offer my two cents, Jack did give Ennis a clue saying that he was going to LF with his folks to help out during the winter. interpreted to me as "I'm not going to leave Wyoming right away. If you want to "see me around", I won't be that far. Perhaps Jack felt Ennis needed a little time and space, had hope that Ennis would change his mind and show up on the doorstep of his LF home after all. But you are all correct in saying that Jack was crushed, devastasted, and the tears were already forming. Jack loved Ennis so much that he left every ave open for Ennis to change his mind.

There were long pauses where Ennis stared at Jack having that hurt in Jack's eyes seared into his conciousness. If only Jack had returned a few minutes later, he would have seen how Ennis really felt about them parting. In regards to why he did'nt offer him a ride? Perhaps Jack was so caught up in the moment that he simply forgot. Maybe later on down the road he slaps his forehead %&)and says "Sh-t, I did'nt even offer him a ride! Its possible.

On another note:... I am reluctant to say this but in this scene while Ennis is kneeling and crying at the wall, look up at the clouds. Am I crazy or do I really see an eye? or two eyes looking down on Ennis? They are formed in the cloud cover.. I promise to see a shrink if no one else sees this. Am I nuts or is this more genius from Ang Lee?.....I think I need a drink. Check it out and let me know.Please.

ksxks · « **Reply #441 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 09:33 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Aug 24, 2007, 05:35 AM

I got on a train once and let it pull out of the station - a few hundred yards down the line I knew I'd done the wrong thing, but it was too late to go back. As I'd got on I'd been in too much turmoil to think clearly; that's the state I think Jack's in as he drives away. I chose one course of action, as Jack does " and that has made all the difference".

That is so right, WW. (And I really feel your story...) We have to remember E and J -- and everyone -- are not always in full control of their faculties. Definitely not these young men in this very unsettling situation -- how to part after what they'd just had. You were "in too much turmoil to think clearly" and I would certainly say it was the same with both Ennis and Jack.

kathy

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #442 on:** Aug 24, 2007, 10:13 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Aug 24, 2007, 06:39 PM

On another note:... I am reluctant to say this but in this scene while Ennis is kneeling and crying at the wall, look up at the clouds. Am I crazy or do I really see an eye? or two eyes looking down on Ennis? They are formed in the cloud cover.. I promise to see a shrink if no one else sees this. Am I nuts or is this more genius from Ang Lee?.....I think I need a drink. Check it out and let me know.Please.

Hmm I never noticed that but I will check it out.

I love finding new things.
I agree- Jack gave several clues- going up to see his daddy, I might be back but Ennis just said "see ya around then" so I can see why offering him a ride was not at the forefront of his mind.

tpe · « **Reply #443 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 03:00 PM »

Quote from: proulxfan on Aug 23, 2007, 08:24 PM

WW and tpe,

I had always, from the first time I saw the film, interpreted Jack's question this way:"Will/can we see each other again?" The fleetingly brief, pleading look he give Ennis, followed by the lowering of his head, suggests he is crushed by Ennis's apparent brushoff. WW I think you're right on target with your take on this, although I had never made the connection with his dejection being the reason he doesn't offer Ennis a ride.
Very interesting...

Thanks proulxfan. It must have been this way, because Jack must have remembered what Ennis told him: that he was marrying Alma that November. So Ennis must have understood whay Jack was asking the question anew.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #444 on:** Aug 27, 2007, 08:46 PM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Aug 24, 2007, 10:13 PM

Hmm I never noticed that but I will check it out. I love finding new things.
I agree- Jack gave several clues- going up to see his daddy, I might be back but Ennis just said "see ya around then" so I can see why offering him a ride was not at the forefront of his mind.

LJN, thanks for getting back to me on this. I'm glad you saw what I meant. I will now happily put away my check, reserved for treatment.

On the other hand , with what RL is throwing at me lately, maybe I'll keep it handily nearby! :iThe one on the left appears to be Ennis's, the one on the right definitly Jack's. It's so weird aint it?

JT · « **Reply #445 on:** Aug 29, 2007, 02:46 PM »

Quote from: liketheyallknow on Aug 13, 2007, 03:53 PM

Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!

I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight', what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them. There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.

I really like your post. You said it very beautifully. I haven't heard of this one yet, but it definately seem like it symbolizes those who can not change. It's like you have to adapt changes and if you can't, you'll die off.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #446 on:** Aug 29, 2007, 06:34 PM »

I was in bed last night trying to fall asleep and I heard Jack in my head " Why is it we're alway out in the firggin' cold?" So I started to think that maybe that could mean Why aren't we accepted? Why do we have to hide who we are? Why are we always on the outside looking in?

JT · « **Reply #447 on:** Aug 29, 2007, 10:48 PM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Aug 29, 2007, 06:34 PM

I was in bed last night trying to fall asleep and I heard Jack in my head " Why is it we're alway out in the firggin' cold?" So I started to think that maybe that could mean Why aren't we accepted? Why do we have to hide who we are? Why are we always on the outside looking in?

Yes, and Jack wants to be is some where warm.

tpe · « **Reply #448 on:** Aug 30, 2007, 07:40 AM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Aug 29, 2007, 06:34 PM

I was in bed last night trying to fall asleep and I heard Jack in my head " Why is it we're alway out in the firggin' cold?" So I started to think that maybe that could mean Why aren't we accepted? Why do we have to hide who we are? Why are we always on the outside looking in?

Excellent, LJN! I also had a sense that there was something odd about why Jack lapsed into this topic at that moment in the movie. I had a feeling that there must have been some significance to it, and I somehow feel at home with what you say here.

welshwitch · « **Reply #449 on:** Aug 30, 2007, 12:52 PM »

"Left out in the cold" means excluded by the majority, doesn't it? As they think they would be if they were known to be what they are.

And warmth symbolises home, hearth, family, comfort, acceptance - all the things they never find together.

Their love for each other is surely " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" of their separations, but it has to stretch a long way.