Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines  (Read 224849 times)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #570 on: Apr 15, 2008, 10:19 AM »
I suppose you've already spoken about this scene and its meaning before,but I'm going to "resuscitate" the subject if something new can be said...:The dead sheep.It can have the initial meaning of a kind of moral,something like this:- Look what happens when you leave your duties to succumb to carnal wishes . But it results a too simple and "little bourgeois" point of view that I can't believe Ang Lee was willing to remark... %(
It could be also a way of reflecting the loss of the innocence and the virginity-blood works better in woman's case to reflect this,however...-.Also,as the sheep is ripped,that Ennis is seeing himself in this way; as showing his innest feelings and way of being,even before himself,he has nothing to hide even if he tries...And,the same than the sheep is being "given to sacrifice" somehow,Ennis was given to the sacrifice of his fears and his innocence;while the animal was being eaten physically by the coyote,he was being "devoured",both physically and emotionally speaking,by love-and please,let erotic questions aside... ;D -.
It has also been said that maybe it could be a-far-warning of Jack's death; their relationship begins with something of their environment that becomes dead-the sheep-and ends with Jack becoming dead by something of their environment too.What's your opinion?
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #571 on: Apr 16, 2008, 07:43 AM »
I suppose you've already spoken about this scene and its meaning before,but I'm going to "resuscitate" the subject if something new can be said...:The dead sheep.It can have the initial meaning of a kind of moral,something like this:- Look what happens when you leave your duties to succumb to carnal wishes . But it results a too simple and "little bourgeois" point of view that I can't believe Ang Lee was willing to remark... %(
It could be also a way of reflecting the loss of the innocence and the virginity-blood works better in woman's case to reflect this,however...-.Also,as the sheep is ripped,that Ennis is seeing himself in this way; as showing his innest feelings and way of being,even before himself,he has nothing to hide even if he tries...And,the same than the sheep is being "given to sacrifice" somehow,Ennis was given to the sacrifice of his fears and his innocence;while the animal was being eaten physically by the coyote,he was being "devoured",both physically and emotionally speaking,by love-and please,let erotic questions aside... ;D -.
It has also been said that maybe it could be a-far-warning of Jack's death; their relationship begins with something of their environment that becomes dead-the sheep-and ends with Jack becoming dead by something of their environment too.What's your opinion?

Thanks you so much MPJ.  You know, this is one of my favorite symbolic scenes in the movie, and feel that this is one of the direct classical allusions in the film.  I find rich meaning in this "dead sheep" scene, and what you say here only adds greater dimension to how I see it.

I believe there is an entire thread devoted to this scene, it's meaning, and symbolism.  Have you read it?  If you can't find it, I will be happy to search it for you...


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #572 on: Apr 16, 2008, 11:32 AM »
Thanks you so much MPJ.  You know, this is one of my favorite symbolic scenes in the movie, and feel that this is one of the direct classical allusions in the film.  I find rich meaning in this "dead sheep" scene, and what you say here only adds greater dimension to how I see it.

I believe there is an entire thread devoted to this scene, it's meaning, and symbolism.  Have you read it?  If you can't find it, I will be happy to search it for you...

Thank you Thomas; I´ll look for it and,if I don´t find it,I´ll be very grateful to your help.  :)
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #573 on: Apr 16, 2008, 05:47 PM »
Thanks you so much MPJ.  You know, this is one of my favorite symbolic scenes in the movie, and feel that this is one of the direct classical allusions in the film.  I find rich meaning in this "dead sheep" scene, and what you say here only adds greater dimension to how I see it.

I believe there is an entire thread devoted to this scene, it's meaning, and symbolism.  Have you read it?  If you can't find it, I will be happy to search it for you...



Indeed, mpj and tpe, I have felt the same about this double meaning. It's full of insight and feeling:
One little image and one brief expression can say so much. And here, it does, and unravels over the whole story. It's like that sheep's blood is spread thin over all (mis)communications between Jack and Ennis, etc.
Ennis put a ghostly hand in that open sheep and fingerpainted his love for Jack over 20 years, like prepubescent graffiti. His love making would always be so animalistic and fearful and the most passionate thing in his life, I think; it's because that sheep was not only foreshadowing that 20 year love affair. It was also Ennis' intersection of Heaven and Hell, of Brokeback and Earl. From here on out he is a young man madly in love, attracted to what he both needed and couldn't stand despite of his claiming to have to.
Four years later, holding the post card, you see under his fingernails the dark, dried crimson (did he ever wash his hands of the sheep -- of Jack?). Another handful of years later, holding the "Deceased" postcard, you see his dirty thumbnail again as it presses lightly into an item of his love.
The feelings and insights MPJ notes, of Ennis at the sheep go a long way. Ennis did feel his love rip open, and he also saw the guts were missing. It reminds me of the alley seen when he's 'puking up his guts'; however, nothing comes out. Instead, Jack had taken everything from Ennis including the insides that now belonged to their relationship. - - heart, soul, *cough*... gag reflex.
Ennis sitting from afar in that field of grass, seeing Jack was his open heart, and his reaction to it: Having to let Jack go that summer, the punch, the blood. Every meeting with Jack was his brilliant picture of love and bloody consequence.
Among the purposes of the sheep, the one thing Ennis forgot to do was carry Jack away from death. In the end when Jack had died, he carried his shirt.
Like the 'puppy' that stood howling for the open sheep, Ennis could have stood by Jack.
I'll stand by you, Jack
But then if Ennis stopped running from his fears, this probably wouldn't be the epic story it is.
It's befitting of Ennis to accept the fate that was ripped open before him, that had been thrown into a ditch 10 years earlier in his life. He and his patterns.  %(

Sorry I'm on my way to work and strayed off there. In other words though, I'm with you both that this topic is very, very intriguing.   ???
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #574 on: Apr 17, 2008, 07:07 AM »
Indeed, mpj and tpe, I have felt the same about this double meaning. It's full of insight and feeling:
One little image and one brief expression can say so much. And here, it does, and unravels over the whole story. It's like that sheep's blood is spread thin over all (mis)communications between Jack and Ennis, etc.
Ennis put a ghostly hand in that open sheep and fingerpainted his love for Jack over 20 years, like prepubescent graffiti.
His love making would always be so animalistic and fearful and the most passionate thing in his life, I think; it's because that sheep was not only foreshadowing that 20 year love affair. It was also Ennis' intersection of Heaven and Hell, of Brokeback and Earl. From here on out he is a young man madly in love, attracted to what he both needed and couldn't stand despite of his claiming to have to.
Four years later, holding the post card, you see under his fingernails the dark, dried crimson (did he ever wash his hands of the sheep -- of Jack?). Another handful of years later, holding the "Deceased" postcard, you see his dirty thumbnail again as it presses lightly into an item of his love.
The feelings and insights MPJ notes, of Ennis at the sheep go a long way. Ennis did feel his love rip open, and he also saw the guts were missing. It reminds me of the alley seen when he's 'puking up his guts'; however, nothing comes out. Instead, Jack had taken everything from Ennis including the insides that now belonged to their relationship. - - heart, soul, *cough*... gag reflex.
Ennis sitting from afar in that field of grass, seeing Jack was his open heart, and his reaction to it: Having to let Jack go that summer, the punch, the blood. Every meeting with Jack was his brilliant picture of love and bloody consequence.
Among the purposes of the sheep, the one thing Ennis forgot to do was carry Jack away from death. In the end when Jack had died, he carried his shirt.
Like the 'puppy' that stood howling for the open sheep, Ennis could have stood by Jack.
I'll stand by you, Jack
But then if Ennis stopped running from his fears, this probably wouldn't be the epic story it is.
It's befitting of Ennis to accept the fate that was ripped open before him, that had been thrown into a ditch 10 years earlier in his life. He and his patterns.  %(

Sorry I'm on my way to work and strayed off there. In other words though, I'm with you both that this topic is very, very intriguing.   ???

Wow.  I love the fingerpainting image you call up, orangetruck.  It is very visceral.  For some reason, if also calls to mind the blood-sprinkling command in Exodus. 

And you bring a good point that it was a point of intersection for Ennis.   I did feel that it was strategically placed immediately after the FNIT for good reason.  It signalled that a crossing point has been reached for Ennis.  The sheep is both prophetic and revealing of Ennis's current state of mind.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #575 on: Apr 17, 2008, 11:49 AM »
Justin,very interesting the parallelism between the puppy stand for the open sheep and Ennis,who must have stood by Jack...I see it in another way,similar however: the same than he must have stand near the sheep to avoid them dangers of their environment, must he have stand by Jack,in order to protect him against their own environmental dangers?.The coyote that put a hint of tragedy after their first night together in BBM,can symbolise also the other "human coyotes" who put an end to their paradise after BBM?.I agree,Thomas,in that the dead sheep can be prophetical in that something has changed inside Ennis,but he's somehow united to his world,that can be a menace against them also.And perhaps of Jack's own death.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #576 on: Apr 18, 2008, 08:25 AM »
Thanks MPJ.  I do believe that it did prefigure Jack's death, although at the moment, it did reflect a change within Ennis, and prefigured a gut-wrenching inner conflict.


Offline atalley

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #577 on: Apr 21, 2008, 03:16 PM »
TPE...I just started this thread earlier today, and am tearing up thinking about what you said about Jack's mom.  "You're welcome to go up there if you want" -meaning, you'll see how much Jack loved you.  It never hit me before today.  I feel I got gut punched. :\'(  I love Jack's mom, and am sure she would've given Ennis the ashes if it had been up to her.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #578 on: Apr 21, 2008, 03:21 PM »
TPE...I just started this thread earlier today, and am tearing up thinking about what you said about Jack's mom.  " you're welcome to go up there if you want" b]-meaning, you'll see how much Jack loved you.  It never hit me before today :\'

Hello atalley.  Your reminding me of that old post also affects me right now.  But I do think that it the mother seemed to have encouraged him to go up there -- all alone!    I do feel that she had known all along what he would find up there, and her nod and quiet knowing smile when he comes down bringing the shirts -- that tell sit all for me.


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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #579 on: Apr 21, 2008, 04:35 PM »
Hello atalley.  Your reminding me of that old post also affects me right now.  But I do think that it the mother seemed to have encouraged him to go up there -- all alone!    I do feel that she had known all along what he would find up there, and her nod and quiet knowing smile when he comes down bringing the shirts -- that tell sit all for me.



Totally agree!!!

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #580 on: Apr 21, 2008, 05:58 PM »
Totally agree!!!

Agreed, here come the emotions. I feel the girth of her expression in my throat which is like the hallway her voice echoes in. Then it's Ennis' steps up the stairs that keep a steady acidic pounding in my chest. It's just too much to capture all of the quiet sentiment in the thought of Ma Twist telling him he's welcome to go on up there. Her eyes and nod; right there it is.
I'm really with you on this Thomas, Tammy and atalley. As Ennis is about to get hit with how much he misses Jack and he had missed Ennis, we miss it/him/them. It's hard to swallow..

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Offline ksxks

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #581 on: Apr 21, 2008, 10:29 PM »
Hello atalley.  Your reminding me of that old post also affects me right now.  But I do think that it the mother seemed to have encouraged him to go up there -- all alone!    I do feel that she had known all along what he would find up there, and her nod and quiet knowing smile when he comes down bringing the shirts -- that tell sit all for me.

Oh yes, this is so beautiful and telling.  Mom sending Ennis up there, but also, as you said, her "knowing look" when he comes down with the shirts.  (Interesting, too, that he had no question about taking them.)  I just love this development, that Ennis and Jack's mom met.  A very meaningful experience for both of them.  And I would love to think that they did indeed see each other again.

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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #582 on: Apr 22, 2008, 07:16 AM »
Thanks Tammy, OT, and kathy.  I did find it intriguing that the mother pauses a bit before she puts the shirts in the paper bag -- did any of you also seem to notice this? 

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #583 on: Apr 22, 2008, 07:27 AM »
Thanks Tammy, OT, and kathy.  I did find it intriguing that the mother pauses a bit before she puts the shirts in the paper bag -- did any of you also seem to notice this? 

Yeah, most of this pause I saw in her eyes. Something about them not allowing her stifled words to go unheard. If I were to pull out of that trance, I would say the pause there would be many emotional things not excluding to rather hold Ennis' hand or embrace him..

Not mentioning the contents of the bag or the ideas she perhaps was instilling into him with her body language and those eyes..
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #584 on: Apr 23, 2008, 09:33 AM »
Or perhaps she also feared that a slight mention of the shirts would get John Twist going and make him refuse Ennis even this...

 

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #585 on: Apr 23, 2008, 02:12 PM »
Or perhaps she also feared that a slight mention of the shirts would get John Twist going and make him refuse Ennis even this...

 

Yeah I think so.
I like to think what Ma Twist delivered in the second of paused stare, Ennis swallowed with that soft tuck of his lip. Anything outside of their shared field of vision, their shared and crying perspective of love and having lost Jack, was fair game to Mr. Twist. The whole house seemed to wheep inside his captivity. I remember his eyes, they looked spooky as if they were made of glass and were always about to break when he would blink. Best not to make him even wince. That old bastard.
That Jack held onto him so to speak, and looked up to him at all as a father is inspired, imo. There is also the faint tick of love here, not to mention Jack's definition of it upstairs; it's a study of the many kinds of love though, and ultimately that it is a force of nature.

I know this isn't exactly a double meaning, but I want to mention something cinematic that I picked up on consciously earlier. I had always been moved by it, but didn't recognize how:

After the reunion kiss and the cliff jump, under the moon Ennis has mentioned Earl. Jack rests the back of his hand on Ennis' face. In the next shot, we see the back of Ennis' head and hat and Jack's profile. And there is the view of the flowing river whiskey spring between them. The water is flowing from Jack to Ennis as Jack leans in to nudge Ennis with his hand. And it just struck me as symbolic. And maybe it's been brought up before, I don't know. But the love is a force of nature energy seems to be pouring from Brokeback and echoing simultaneously through Jack's actions towards Ennis. And of course this echoes and echoes echoes echoes ...

over time.



Until it freezes in a postcard in a closet, where it becomes Ennis' turn to radiate this love freely.



« Last Edit: Apr 23, 2008, 02:19 PM by orangetruck »
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline chameau

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #586 on: Apr 23, 2008, 11:04 PM »
OMG, that's just beautiful!  :\'(
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Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #587 on: Apr 24, 2008, 12:29 AM »
OMG, that's just beautiful!  :\'(

 :ghug:
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Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #588 on: Apr 24, 2008, 07:12 AM »
Very lovely, roangetruck.  Perhaps the final nudge on the BBM postcard does carry a double meaning, as you suggest here.

There is another scene where I suspect that a double menaing could be overlaid: the scene in the closet, when Ennis takes the shirts in his arms.  Wasn't there a moment in that scene where he raises one of the arms of the shirt and brings it close to his face?  Could there be some symbol here?  What was Ennis's motivation for doing this?  I had thought that it was a stylized embrace...


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #589 on: Apr 25, 2008, 11:54 AM »
Very lovely, roangetruck.  Perhaps the final nudge on the BBM postcard does carry a double meaning, as you suggest here.

There is another scene where I suspect that a double menaing could be overlaid: the scene in the closet, when Ennis takes the shirts in his arms.  Wasn't there a moment in that scene where he raises one of the arms of the shirt and brings it close to his face?  Could there be some symbol here?  What was Ennis's motivation for doing this?  I had thought that it was a stylized embrace...

Being as the shirts are a symbol of their love,a kind of substitute of the dead lover that is embracing and protecting Ennis forever by being above his own shirt; maybe he sees in it the way to tell Jack all what he hadn't told before,with words-the inaudible "I love you"-and with gestures-a need to feel,even in his wish,his touch,his warmth,in himself.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #590 on: Apr 25, 2008, 12:38 PM »
Being as the shirts are a symbol of their love,a kind of substitute of the dead lover that is embracing and protecting Ennis forever by being above his own shirt; maybe he sees in it the way to tell Jack all what he hadn't told before,with words-the inaudible "I love you"-and with gestures-a need to feel,even in his wish,his touch,his warmth,in himself.

Thank you so much for saying  this so beautifully MPJ. I am so on the verge of tears re-living this scene. So shockingly devastating it brings me to tears. I also thank Heath Ledger for bringing this expression of loss of love to us. My God,  He deserved the Oscar for this scene alone .  :\'(
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #591 on: Apr 25, 2008, 01:01 PM »
Thank you so much for saying  this so beautifully MPJ. I am so on the verge of tears re-living this scene. So shockingly devastating it brings me to tears. I also thank Heath Ledger for bringing this expression of loss of love to us. My God,  He deserved the Oscar for this scene alone .  :\'(

 :t) to you,Aintfoolin...Of course,he deserved the Oscar to bring Ennis inner struggle to us and making us understand.And for being so great in this painful scene.Only political reasons and a bad understood moral sense avoided him to win,what's unfair,but that's life¡
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #592 on: Apr 25, 2008, 07:29 PM »
:t) to you,Aintfoolin...Of course,he deserved the Oscar to bring Ennis inner struggle to us and making us understand.And for being so great in this painful scene.Only political reasons and a bad understood moral sense avoided him to win,what's unfair,but that's life¡

Yes I think, even if only subconsciously, Ennis was fully 'receiving' the love that Jack had preserved in the shirts, right there in the closet scene in Jack's old bedroom. Strange thing calling it old in the name of their love, and in the fact that he kept that room the way it was during his younger years. The essense of him and Jack was in those shirts and, as if they were both on the mountain in the dozy embrace, Ennis' reflex is to take Jack in his arms. For he was certainly there, Ennis was determined to smell a trace of him. There just couldn't be any other possibility. 'Least not one that Ennis could bear.
Everytime I see him slowly walk out of that house and towards the truck, I feel that he's not accepted it yet and that he's nearly paralyzed with the anticipation of a better answer than death. Perhaps it would fall from that courageous white and blue sky covering that ghostly white house. I get a lot of feeling from the way he almost staggers back to the truck which we only see the back window and truckbed of. And the reflection of that sky in that window. There's a backwards motion starting here, and then he travels back to his place, going down the other way on a road similar to the beginning of the story. This part always makes me think: He has reached the end of his journey to love and is leaving with the suvenirs that will ensure he's a changed man but more importantly, a man who can communicate with an open heart -- no longer a stoic.
     Like with his natural tendency to bring the sleeve near and hold onto the shirts and inhale them like a runt that's drawn to the heartbeat of the mother cat; only it's got a paradoxal affect when the heart that's kept you alive is absent.
I do believe his inhaling what wasn't there is his actually putting Jack's heart into his. And we can get a display of this metaphor when we see that he's put Jack's shirt inside his own later on before he shuts the closet door to let the wind outside the window blow freely over what's grown long and wild.
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #593 on: Apr 25, 2008, 10:03 PM »
Yes I think, even if only subconsciously, Ennis was fully 'receiving' the love that Jack had preserved in the shirts, right there in the closet scene in Jack's old bedroom. Strange thing calling it old in the name of their love, and in the fact that he kept that room the way it was during his younger years. The essense of him and Jack was in those shirts and, as if they were both on the mountain in the dozy embrace, Ennis' reflex is to take Jack in his arms. For he was certainly there, Ennis was determined to smell a trace of him. There just couldn't be any other possibility. 'Least not one that Ennis could bear.
Everytime I see him slowly walk out of that house and towards the truck, I feel that he's not accepted it yet and that he's nearly paralyzed with the anticipation of a better answer than death. Perhaps it would fall from that courageous white and blue sky covering that ghostly white house. I get a lot of feeling from the way he almost staggers back to the truck which we only see the back window and truckbed of. And the reflection of that sky in that window. There's a backwards motion starting here, and then he travels back to his place, going down the other way on a road similar to the beginning of the story. This part always makes me think: He has reached the end of his journey to love and is leaving with the suvenirs that will ensure he's a changed man but more importantly, a man who can communicate with an open heart -- no longer a stoic.
     Like with his natural tendency to bring the sleeve near and hold onto the shirts and inhale them like a runt that's drawn to the heartbeat of the mother cat; only it's got a paradoxal affect when the heart that's kept you alive is absent.
I do believe his inhaling what wasn't there is his actually putting Jack's heart into his. And we can get a display of this metaphor when we see that he's put Jack's shirt inside his own later on before he shuts the closet door to let the wind outside the window blow freely over what's grown long and wild.

I just have to reply to this excellent post OT. God ,the picture you paint is so raw. A loss so fresh ,and the total realization of what he knew before Jack's death and  after finding those shirts. The sheer finality of death and the loss catapulted  him headlong into the , presence of Jack. The moment when his very thought processes of the way he thought about his role in the relationship with Jack all came together.. What he wants most of all ,is for Jack to be there with him to take joy in his discovery. Their love changed him. Who else is there to share it with? or is  more deserving of him to share it with? Jack was gone, ..or was he?

 You say it so well when you speak to the natural instinct of Ennis to smell Jack, and to embrace him right there in that closet without the fear as you refer to the DE. . , the need to make it right again by connecting in some way real to him.  Suddenly , reality hits him square in the chest. . This was an awakening imo. His whole life flashed before his eyes in those few moments .. He's finally gotten to the point where he knows where it did'nt matter who  was right ,and  who was wrong. The question of *who am I ? , really* has been answered in the most profound  way and he only knows one thing,   His precious lil darlin , sweet Jack  had been stolen away like a thief in the night taking his heart and soul with him. A twist of fate.  There was indeed "never enough time" never enough". If only he could have it all back for just a few seconds, long enough to tell Jack he loves him too and to stay forever..  For once to fix it  for jack and himself., instead of standing it. That philoshphy went out the window when he knows that now there nothing left to fix anymore. Jack was saying he loved and needed Ennis  all along , but he just refused to  see it then. It took Jack's  sad fate to open his heart to the rest of his life.

The shirts may be symbolic for Ennis of a forgivness from Jack and a forgivness of himself. The way he displayed the shirts in HIS closet has him embracing all that he and Jack have and will always have. Jack tells him thru these shirts that he no longer has anything to fear.  " it's alright". In the end, still protecting Ennis.  He swears from his now open heart ,that he will honor what Jack tried so diligently to show him. Jack left him his spirit of their love to have and hold, Ennis's response? to reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life.
Thank you OT for inspiration.  :ghug: :c)
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #594 on: Apr 26, 2008, 06:06 AM »
I just have to reply to this excellent post OT. God ,the picture you paint is so raw. A loss so fresh ,and the total realization of what he knew before Jack's death and  after finding those shirts. The sheer finality of death and the loss catapulted  him headlong into the , presence of Jack. The moment when his very thought processes of the way he thought about his role in the relationship with Jack all came together.. What he wants most of all ,is for Jack to be there with him to take joy in his discovery. Their love changed him. Who else is there to share it with? or is  more deserving of him to share it with? Jack was gone, ..or was he?

 You say it so well when you speak to the natural instinct of Ennis to smell Jack, and to embrace him right there in that closet without the fear as you refer to the DE. . , the need to make it right again by connecting in some way real to him.  Suddenly , reality hits him square in the chest. . This was an awakening imo. His whole life flashed before his eyes in those few moments .. He's finally gotten to the point where he knows where it did'nt matter who  was right ,and  who was wrong. The question of *who am I ? , really* has been answered in the most profound  way and he only knows one thing,   His precious lil darlin , sweet Jack  had been stolen away like a thief in the night taking his heart and soul with him. A twist of fate.  There was indeed "never enough time" never enough". If only he could have it all back for just a few seconds, long enough to tell Jack he loves him too and to stay forever..  For once to fix it  for jack and himself., instead of standing it. That philoshphy went out the window when he knows that now there nothing left to fix anymore. Jack was saying he loved and needed Ennis  all along , but he just refused to  see it then. It took Jack's  sad fate to open his heart to the rest of his life.

The shirts may be symbolic for Ennis of a forgivness from Jack and a forgivness of himself. The way he displayed the shirts in HIS closet has him embracing all that he and Jack have and will always have. Jack tells him thru these shirts that he no longer has anything to fear.  " it's alright". In the end, still protecting Ennis.  He swears from his now open heart ,that he will honor what Jack tried so diligently to show him. Jack left him his spirit of their love to have and hold, Ennis's response? to reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life.
Thank you OT for inspiration.  :ghug: :c)

Thanks, AF. Your statement here is what really makes the shirts hard to swallow, both beautiful and depressing.

It's alright, now that you can stop hiding. The day that you stop running is the day that you arrive.

"Ennis' response? To reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life"

That hits me so hard: we think of the 20 year span when they would visit and visit each other to share a love that would never grow old, that would never reside anywhere really but between themselves and on the mountain. Now, as a last resort, and final destination (I can't STAND saying that and shouldn't have  ^*) ) he has to share it with a quiet Jack. And despite his (playful) mockings of Jack's harmonica and sometimes boisterous love and ideas, Jack's voice still echoes in his ears. And he misses this voice which gave/gives him life.
I agree, he must yearn so achingly for even the thinnest slice of time which is so ruthless, to hold him and tell him what he has realized after losing the only person he fully loved:

Friend, I love you.  :\'(

Likewise, thank you, AF  :ghug:
« Last Edit: Apr 26, 2008, 06:13 AM by orangetruck »
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

babytammy7

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #595 on: Apr 26, 2008, 04:54 PM »
You say it so well when you speak to the natural instinct of Ennis to smell Jack, and to embrace him right there in that closet without the fear as you refer to the DE. . , the need to make it right again by connecting in some way real to him.  Suddenly , reality hits him square in the chest. . This was an awakening imo. His whole life flashed before his eyes in those few moments .. He's finally gotten to the point where he knows where it did'nt matter who  was right ,and  who was wrong. The question of *who am I ? , really* has been answered in the most profound  way and he only knows one thing,   His precious lil darlin , sweet Jack  had been stolen away like a thief in the night taking his heart and soul with him. A twist of fate.  There was indeed "never enough time" never enough". If only he could have it all back for just a few seconds, long enough to tell Jack he loves him too and to stay forever..  For once to fix it  for jack and himself., instead of standing it. That philoshphy went out the window when he knows that now there nothing left to fix anymore. Jack was saying he loved and needed Ennis  all along , but he just refused to  see it then. It took Jack's  sad fate to open his heart to the rest of his life.
The shirts may be symbolic for Ennis of a forgivness from Jack and a forgivness of himself. The way he displayed the shirts in HIS closet has him embracing all that he and Jack have and will always have. Jack tells him thru these shirts that he no longer has anything to fear.  " it's alright". In the end, still protecting Ennis.   He swears from his now open heart ,that he will honor what Jack tried so diligently to show him. Jack left him his spirit of their love to have and hold, Ennis's response? to reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life.



That hits me so hard: we think of the 20 year span when they would visit and visit each other to share a love that would never grow old, that would never reside anywhere really but between themselves and on the mountain. Now, as a last resort, and final destination (I can't STAND saying that and shouldn't have  ^*) ) he has to share it with a quiet Jack. And despite his (playful) mockings of Jack's harmonica and sometimes boisterous love and ideas, Jack's voice still echoes in his ears. And he misses this voice which gave/gives him life.
I agree, he must yearn so achingly for even the thinnest slice of time which is so ruthless, to hold him and tell him what he has realized after losing the only person he fully loved:

Friend, I love you.  :\'(



I'm speechless here.  :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( Crying my eyes out.

Offline jessicat80

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #596 on: Apr 26, 2008, 04:58 PM »
  I did find it intriguing that the mother pauses a bit before she puts the shirts in the paper bag -- did any of you also seem to notice this? 

     I know y'all have moved on from this moment, but I just discovered this thread, and this scene always made my mind go into overdrive. I think the interaction between Ennis and Jack's mother both verbally and mainly through their silent looks, has so many hidden meanings. The pause before she puts the shirts in the bag brought up many different interpretations every time I saw this scene.
       Two ideas that always come back to mind with that pause is 1, maybe she thought she understood that Ennis was taking a piece of Jack with him in way of the shirt because he couldn't have his ashes, but then as she is putting them in the bag, maybe she notices that there are 2 shirts, and realizes that there is a story behind these shirts, and wishes to know the story, her son's story, but the pause is the sad realization that she knows she can never ask; she can never truly know her son.
      The 2nd, is quit simple. Maybe that pause while holding Jack's shirt before placing it in the bag is just her own quiet moment with all that is left of the Jack she loved. It's her own version of Ennis smelling the shirts and saying his goodbye to Jack, yet getting in one last scent of him. Sadly, she doesn't even get the simple luxury of having this moment alone. She can only stand there having this devastating moment quietly to herself, trying not to let her cold husband see her emotions. Hiding her emotions seemed to be something she had to do her whole life, just like Jack did.  I think there is a sadness in her when Ennis silently confirms this one connection with her son, yet she needs to Cherish this connection all the same; it's all she has left.

P.S. OrangeT, the connection between the river/force of nature is unbelievable, thank you. It gave me chills.
"I’d rather live in his world…..than live without him….in mine."                                       (Midnight Train to Georgia)

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #597 on: Apr 27, 2008, 10:17 AM »
    I know y'all have moved on from this moment, but I just discovered this thread, and this scene always made my mind go into overdrive. I think the interaction between Ennis and Jack's mother both verbally and mainly through their silent looks, has so many hidden meanings. The pause before she puts the shirts in the bag brought up many different interpretations every time I saw this scene.
       Two ideas that always come back to mind with that pause is 1, maybe she thought she understood that Ennis was taking a piece of Jack with him in way of the shirt because he couldn't have his ashes, but then as she is putting them in the bag, maybe she notices that there are 2 shirts, and realizes that there is a story behind these shirts, and wishes to know the story, her son's story, but the pause is the sad realization that she knows she can never ask; she can never truly know her son.
      The 2nd, is quit simple. Maybe that pause while holding Jack's shirt before placing it in the bag is just her own quiet moment with all that is left of the Jack she loved. It's her own version of Ennis smelling the shirts and saying his goodbye to Jack, yet getting in one last scent of him. Sadly, she doesn't even get the simple luxury of having this moment alone. She can only stand there having this devastating moment quietly to herself, trying not to let her cold husband see her emotions. Hiding her emotions seemed to be something she had to do her whole life, just like Jack did.  I think there is a sadness in her when Ennis silently confirms this one connection with her son, yet she needs to Cherish this connection all the same; it's all she has left.

P.S. OrangeT, the connection between the river/force of nature is unbelievable, thank you. It gave me chills.

No problem.  ^f^
And thank you for this post. I like how you brought out the feelings of Ma Twist regarding the similarities between her and Ennis and his connection with her son. She really must not have found it simple to hand those shirts over and see him (and Jack) off.  :\'(
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #598 on: Apr 28, 2008, 08:02 AM »
Yes I think, even if only subconsciously, Ennis was fully 'receiving' the love that Jack had preserved in the shirts, right there in the closet scene in Jack's old bedroom. Strange thing calling it old in the name of their love, and in the fact that he kept that room the way it was during his younger years. The essense of him and Jack was in those shirts and, as if they were both on the mountain in the dozy embrace, Ennis' reflex is to take Jack in his arms. For he was certainly there, Ennis was determined to smell a trace of him. There just couldn't be any other possibility. 'Least not one that Ennis could bear.
Everytime I see him slowly walk out of that house and towards the truck, I feel that he's not accepted it yet and that he's nearly paralyzed with the anticipation of a better answer than death. Perhaps it would fall from that courageous white and blue sky covering that ghostly white house. I get a lot of feeling from the way he almost staggers back to the truck which we only see the back window and truckbed of. And the reflection of that sky in that window. There's a backwards motion starting here, and then he travels back to his place, going down the other way on a road similar to the beginning of the story. This part always makes me think: He has reached the end of his journey to love and is leaving with the suvenirs that will ensure he's a changed man but more importantly, a man who can communicate with an open heart -- no longer a stoic.
     Like with his natural tendency to bring the sleeve near and hold onto the shirts and inhale them like a runt that's drawn to the heartbeat of the mother cat; only it's got a paradoxal affect when the heart that's kept you alive is absent.
I do believe his inhaling what wasn't there is his actually putting Jack's heart into his. And we can get a display of this metaphor when we see that he's put Jack's shirt inside his own later on before he shuts the closet door to let the wind outside the window blow freely over what's grown long and wild.

Wow.


Offline tpe

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Re: Double Meanings in BBM Lines
« Reply #599 on: Apr 28, 2008, 08:04 AM »
Being as the shirts are a symbol of their love,a kind of substitute of the dead lover that is embracing and protecting Ennis forever by being above his own shirt; maybe he sees in it the way to tell Jack all what he hadn't told before,with words-the inaudible "I love you"-and with gestures-a need to feel,even in his wish,his touch,his warmth,in himself.

I think that in that scene, the blue shirt literally becomes Jack.