Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[aintfoolin]

Yes, they say that a person who cannot meet one's gaze is hiding something from the viewer AND himself/herself.  It could be seen as an involuntary way of not showing one's feelings -- because they do show in the eyes.  Equating eyes with our own feelings is quite valid, IMO.

 So. so true. an example being the divorce scene for sure. After Jack says "see ya month then" Ennis cannot look at Jack as he sends him away, he just stares at the ground. So much guilt, so much shame. He knows Jack is hurt....and he's causing it.

[rlh03]

re Jack: 'Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" to me, has always been his saying 'I love you' to Ennis in his own way. It was said with such an underlying fervor and feeling, I never felt it could be given any other interpretation.  And did you see the look in his eyes in that scene...perhaps a
little pain also?       :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

So. so true. an example being the divorce scene for sure. After Jack says "see ya month then" Ennis cannot look at Jack as he sends him away, he just stares at the ground. So much guilt, so much shame. He knows Jack is hurt....and he's causing it.

And the same goes for the reunion scene, when jack meets Alma.  You can read Alma's distress in her eyes -- and Jack takes one fixed look and just had to look down/away.  We can read too much in his eyes at that moment.

[tpe]

re Jack: 'Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" to me, has always been his saying 'I love you' to Ennis in his own way. It was said with such an underlying fervor and feeling, I never felt it could be given any other interpretation.  And did you see the look in his eyes in that scene...perhaps a
little pain also?       :\'( :\'(

Yes!  As mentioned in another thread, this scene is the closest he ever got to verbally saying "I love you."

[babytammy7]

And the same goes for the reunion scene, when jack meets Alma.  You can read Alma's distress in her eyes -- and Jack takes one fixed look and just had to look down/away.  We can read too much in his eyes at that moment.

Exactly, Thomas, after staring Alma for a brief moment he just looks down, then Ennis, then away and down...He knows his face and eyes are saying it all to Alma...

[Brokeback adoration]

Gotta say this is one of my favourite threads. It's really interesting (like all the other threads in this forum).
This has nothing to do with it, though - So just ignore this. 

I just really want to say THANK YOU to all of you for sharing your thoughts. I never get tired of watching this movie, and all of the genius stuff you talk about in here just makes it even more amazing.
And it teaches me so much more than just about the movie - I don't really know how to describe it...
Just... Please keep sharing your thoughts, dreams and wonders.
I've never read anything like what is in here. It makes me laugh and (seriously) cry!! I'm stunned... 
STUNNED...

[jessicat80]

Gotta say this is one of my favourite threads. It's really interesting (like all the other threads in this forum).
 
I've never read anything like what is in here. It makes me laugh and (seriously) cry!! I'm stunned... 
STUNNED...

Yes, though many threads have meaning to us all, there is something special about this one....

It's so wonderful to see all the different interpretations of a line or moment, and see what exactly someone else got from it...did they see it that way because that's really how they felt it meant to Jack and Ennis, or did they interprete it that way because it connects to a moment in one's own life?!

And the same goes for the reunion scene, when jack meets Alma.  You can read Alma's distress in her eyes -- and Jack takes one fixed look and just had to look down/away.  We can read too much in his eyes at that moment.

Yes Thomas, Jack's guilt is so evident in this scene, and what I find most interesting is really all they've done by that point(since Alma has been Ennis' wife) is the kiss that took place only seconds earlier....His guilt is from the feelings he's held on to for the past 4 years...and the knowing(after that kiss) what's going to happen next. Though it was likely too soon for Jack to really have given it a lot of thought, I'm sure he had been thinking about it the whole trip up...thinking about what would happen next if Ennis did seem to still care for him...and I don't just mean a sexual romp in a cheap motel room, I mean the fact that Jack wanted a permanent life with Ennis...I think some of his guilt in that Alma scene also comes from the fact that he knows he's looking at a woman who loves the same man he loves...and as much as it's going to hurt her(exactly how he's been hurting) ...that knowledge isn't going to stop him from trying to get Ennis to leave her for himself.

It's guilt because in the end, the one Jack really connects and has the most in common with...is actually Alma. I think it hurts him a bit to hurt her...because he is her in a way. I think that has a lot to do with how bitter he becomes after Ennis still refuses to be with him after the divorce...like he could almost understand Ennis choosing not to hurt Alma and his daughters...but if they're hurting anyway....

[tpe]

Exactly, Thomas, after staring Alma for a brief moment he just looks down, then Ennis, then away and down...He knows his face and eyes are saying it all to Alma...

You could tell that he was uncomfortable, even though he didn't have the knowledge that Alma did in fact see them kissing.  Perhaps he had read everything from her eyes...

[tpe]

Gotta say this is one of my favourite threads. It's really interesting (like all the other threads in this forum).
This has nothing to do with it, though - So just ignore this. 

I just really want to say THANK YOU to all of you for sharing your thoughts. I never get tired of watching this movie, and all of the genius stuff you talk about in here just makes it even more amazing.
And it teaches me so much more than just about the movie - I don't really know how to describe it...
Just... Please keep sharing your thoughts, dreams and wonders.
I've never read anything like what is in here. It makes me laugh and (seriously) cry!! I'm stunned... 
STUNNED...

Thanks, Brokeback adoration.  And later, you may find other double meanings to share with us here.   I don't think we've exhausted all possible double meanings in the movie and the story...

[tpe]

Yes Thomas, Jack's guilt is so evident in this scene, and what I find most interesting is really all they've done by that point(since Alma has been Ennis' wife) is the kiss that took place only seconds earlier....His guilt is from the feelings he's held on to for the past 4 years...and the knowing(after that kiss) what's going to happen next. Though it was likely too soon for Jack to really have given it a lot of thought, I'm sure he had been thinking about it the whole trip up...thinking about what would happen next if Ennis did seem to still care for him...and I don't just mean a sexual romp in a cheap motel room, I mean the fact that Jack wanted a permanent life with Ennis...I think some of his guilt in that Alma scene also comes from the fact that he knows he's looking at a woman who loves the same man he loves...and as much as it's going to hurt her(exactly how he's been hurting) ...that knowledge isn't going to stop him from trying to get Ennis to leave her for himself.

It's guilt because in the end, the one Jack really connects and has the most in common with...is actually Alma. I think it hurts him a bit to hurt her...because he is her in a way. I think that has a lot to do with how bitter he becomes after Ennis still refuses to be with him after the divorce...like he could almost understand Ennis choosing not to hurt Alma and his daughters...but if they're hurting anyway....

Exactly!  I don;t think it was all out of the blue -- that Jack would propose a sweet life to Ennis there and then.  Jack had probably dreamed of it during the intervening years.  And I do agree that all of this showed in his eyes when he met Alma -- all the guilt and the desires and the plans he had been thinking about all those 4 years without Ennis.

[babytammy7]

It's guilt because in the end, the one Jack really connects and has the most in common with...is actually Alma. I think it hurts him a bit to hurt her...because he is her in a way. I think that has a lot to do with how bitter he becomes after Ennis still refuses to be with him after the divorce...like he could almost understand Ennis choosing not to hurt Alma and his daughters...but if they're hurting anyway....

You are so right, Jess. 

Alma and Jack was so similar in the end. They both loved Ennis and fight for his love, but neither of them got what they wanted, to live happily with Ennis. How ironic.

[myprivatejack]

You are so right, Jess. 

Alma and Jack was so similar in the end. They both loved Ennis and fight for his love, but neither of them got what they wanted, to live happily with Ennis. How ironic.

If you see it well,the movie is full with ironies; it's ironic that Ennis only came to terms with his feelings after having loose the object of this love;it's ironic that he spent all his life protecting themselves against something that happenned at the end in spite of this;it's ironic even that the character who remained lonely but alive has been played but someone who has passed away in real life...Existence itself is ironic,no?.

[jackster]

From the short story.
Just hit upon me the other day, I’ve read it about a dozen times never saw it until then. Thinkin’ about the heat in their relationship, the fire and the burning desire. Annie’s vivid description of (what would be) their last meeting . . .

“Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close . . . "I used a want a boy for a kid," said Ennis, undoing buttons . . .

. . . a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt.”

Whew! Made me think about what can happen when two fellas get together and have a good time. How hot stuff can come sprayin’ out, flying all over the place. Hot points of fire - for sure.

“One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings . . .”

As Jack said, “Whooee, Yeah!”

[tpe]

From the short story.
Just hit upon me the other day, I’ve read it about a dozen times never saw it until then. Thinkin’ about the heat in their relationship, the fire and the burning desire. Annie’s vivid description of (what would be) their last meeting . . .

“Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close . . . "I used a want a boy for a kid," said Ennis, undoing buttons . . .

. . . a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt.”

Whew! Made me think about what can happen when two fellas get together and have a good time. How hot stuff can come sprayin’ out, flying all over the place. Hot points of fire - for sure.

“One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings . . .”

As Jack said, “Whooee, Yeah!”

We also see this fire-and-passion connection in SNIT, where we see their coupling by the light of the campfire...

[myprivatejack]

We also see this fire-and-passion connection in SNIT, where we see their coupling by the light of the campfire...

Yes,fire is in the middle of them,like a way of coupling them and inspiring more fire-desire-in them.As we see water running in the middle of them also-as Justin said in its moment-in the scene when Ennis tells Earl and Rich's story; as an energy-desire,but also in this case tenderness-running from one to the other.

[tpe]

Yes,fire is in the middle of them,like a way of coupling them and inspiring more fire-desire-in them.As we see water running in the middle of them also-as Justin said in its moment-in the scene when Ennis tells Earl and Rich's story; as an energy-desire,but also in this case tenderness-running from one to the other.

Yes, I do think the fires are symbolically central to many of the pivotal scenes in BBM.  Certainly, in the night before the final confrontation, we see them by the ligfht of the fire, hopelessly trying to hide how they truly feel -- and they failed.

[smartestsonia]

So. so true. an example being the divorce scene for sure. After Jack says "see ya month then" Ennis cannot look at Jack as he sends him away, he just stares at the ground. So much guilt, so much shame. He knows Jack is hurt....and he's causing it.

well said...in that scene Ennis exactly does not know what to say....he is filled with so much pain to let go of jack but his fears and other thoughts stop him to be with jack ..so he wants to let go,,,but parting ways with jack in that scene  is so hard for him...so he is not able to look at him properly and Jack is staring at Ennis hoping that he would say that he feels the same way or that they can meet up soon...

Then when Jack drives the car and sees Ennis going the other way he literally feels the distance increasing between them...The distance of the road corresponds to the distance that gets between them :\'(

[myprivatejack]

We have talked about the sheep subject formerly;but now I'd like to comment something I was talking about with another Brokie few time ago.She said that sheep means here the society,in which Ennis and Jack are immerse by mixing with them in the mountain; sometimes,they follow the sheep,as a way of following also society's rules,but sometimes,sheep are guided by them,as a way of trying to "tame" society in favour of their relationship and feelings-as a way to make society understand how they were and,obviously,accept it-.And that,when one of these sheep doesn't follow society's rules,it's sacrificed as a punishment;the dead sheep is found by Ennis,the one of them who was more willing to accept its rules and to follow them.A kind of warning to him of what can happen when a sheep follows its own way without being with the herd.What's your opinion?.

[LuvJackNasty]

I love that MPJ! Beautifully stated. Personally I like to stay away from the herd- just because they may be large numberwise, doesn't mean they are 'right'.  And then there are the paint brands that wore off maybe suggesting that no one wears a sign and/or that one shouldn't be defined by labels- we all belong here. I think the mixing of the sheep fits into that as well.

[FlwrChild]

I like both of those interpretations. I'd never thought of them before. Thanks gals.

[tpe]

We have talked about the sheep subject formerly;but now I'd like to comment something I was talking about with another Brokie few time ago.She said that sheep means here the society,in which Ennis and Jack are immerse by mixing with them in the mountain; sometimes,they follow the sheep,as a way of following also society's rules,but sometimes,sheep are guided by them,as a way of trying to "tame" society in favour of their relationship and feelings-as a way to make society understand how they were and,obviously,accept it-.And that,when one of these sheep doesn't follow society's rules,it's sacrificed as a punishment;the dead sheep is found by Ennis,the one of them who was more willing to accept its rules and to follow them.A kind of warning to him of what can happen when a sheep follows its own way without being with the herd.What's your opinion?.

I love that MPJ! Beautifully stated. Personally I like to stay away from the herd- just because they may be large numberwise, doesn't mean they are 'right'.  And then there are the paint brands that wore off maybe suggesting that no one wears a sign and/or that one shouldn't be defined by labels- we all belong here. I think the mixing of the sheep fits into that as well.

Love the interpretations. 

I know that some people have seen the one that died as a proto-figure of Jack.  This view is consistent with the above interpretation.  And one can certainly read a lot of significance in the "branding" of the herd...

 

[myprivatejack]

I love that MPJ! Beautifully stated. Personally I like to stay away from the herd- just because they may be large numberwise, doesn't mean they are 'right'.  And then there are the paint brands that wore off maybe suggesting that no one wears a sign and/or that one shouldn't be defined by labels- we all belong here. I think the mixing of the sheep fits into that as well.

Thank you,Michelle ¡ I have never thought about the symbolism of the paint brands that wore off,but I find it really interesting.Yes,maybe that persons like Ennis and Jack,who are away from the herd,are really like any other and that the labels-or the paint brands-only serve to make stupid and unfair differences between equals.

[myprivatejack]

Love the interpretations. 

I know that some people have seen the one that died as a proto-figure of Jack.  This view is consistent with the above interpretation.  And one can certainly read a lot of significance in the "branding" of the herd..

Yes,somebody has spoken about the possibility of a symbolism of Jack's future death.Or it can be only a warning for who runs away from society's rules,precisely right after having sinned?.

[atalley]

We have talked about the sheep subject formerly;but now I'd like to comment something I was talking about with another Brokie few time ago.She said that sheep means here the society,in which Ennis and Jack are immerse by mixing with them in the mountain; sometimes,they follow the sheep,as a way of following also society's rules,but sometimes,sheep are guided by them,as a way of trying to "tame" society in favour of their relationship and feelings-as a way to make society understand how they were and,obviously,accept it-.And that,when one of these sheep doesn't follow society's rules,it's sacrificed as a punishment;the dead sheep is found by Ennis,the one of them who was more willing to accept its rules and to follow them.A kind of warning to him of what can happen when a sheep follows its own way without being with the herd.What's your opinion?.

Very good points MPJ.

[tpe]

Yes,somebody has spoken about the possibility of a symbolism of Jack's future death.Or it can be only a warning for who runs away from society's rules,precisely right after having sinned?.

Could be both!    Whether or not the dead sheep was a symbol of Jack, it certainly prefigured what was to come.  Our mind goes back to this image the moment Ennis imagines the manner in which Jack dies...

[myprivatejack]

Very good points MPJ.

Thank you,Anita,but not all of them are mine...

[myprivatejack]

Could be both!    Whether or not the dead sheep was a symbol of Jack, it certainly prefigured what was to come.  Our mind goes back to this image the moment Ennis imagines the manner in which Jack dies...

And somehow can increase Ennis guilt's feeling,specially years after...

[tpe]

And somehow can increase Ennis guilt's feeling,specially years after...

Certainly, he probably felt that Jack was taking risks -- an perhaps blamed himself for not trying enough to keep him out of it?

[myprivatejack]

Looking at the picture of the scene when Ennis meets the Basque to command what they need,I see that there's a bridge behind them.This bridge is like a wall,something that separates two parts of a river,or of a path.It could be also,then,like the border that separates two worlds;Ennis and Jack's world and all the rest's,as if the bridge was this invisible path that leds them to the real life.What's your opinion about?.

[tpe]

Looking at the picture of the scene when Ennis meets the Basque to command what they need,I see that there's a bridge behind them.This bridge is like a wall,something that separates two parts of a river,or of a path.It could be also,then,like the border that separates two worlds;Ennis and Jack's world and all the rest's,as if the bridge was this invisible path that leds them to the real life.What's your opinion about?.

Very intriguing suggestion, MPJ!  I always look at that bridge and wonder whether there is any significance to it.  I've always found it interesting that THAT scene was shot with the bridge as as backdrop in order to suggest something. 

I would tend to agree with you.  The suggestion is that this is the conact-point with the outside world, and the isolation and distance of one world from the other is symbolized in part by the flimsy nature of the bridge, would you agree?